In-Wall Speakers and Studs

[Aikouka]

First of all, ladies, if you're expecting to see some hunky dudes putting in speakers, that's the wrong kind of stud. But there's a thread for that.

So, terrible joke out of the way, I've got a 16'x11' room that I'm planning on switching to a wall mount for my TV and using in-wall speakers instead of floor-standing speakers. Yes, I know the sound quality isn't as good, but I'm not really worried about that. My problem comes from the fact that I'd like to mount my TV in the center, but there's a stud (with 16" spacing) directly in the center, which means I can't mount the center channel directly below.

In doing some research, I've seen people mention that it's possible to cut out a portion of the stud, and create a cross brace connecting the severed stud to the two next to it. You can see an example of that in this photo. However, whenever someone mentioned that, there was always one big caveat... that's only for walls that aren't load bearing. I'm about 95% sure that the wall in question is load bearing given that my house is fairly rectangular and this wall runs parallel to the long side. It's also directly in the middle, which is where the initial supports are in the crawl space (there were two more sets of supports added later on in between the center and the outside walls).

So, ultimately, my question is... does anyone have a good solution? From what I can muster, my options are...

1. Continue to use an external speaker by building a shelf on the wall directly beneath the TV where the in-wall speaker would have been.
2. Shift the TV over so it's no longer directly over a stud.
3. Shift the center channel over so the TV remains over a stud, but the center channel is not.

Technically, I should be able to do something since you can build doors/openings into load-bearing walls, which essentially uses the same concept involving building a header/beam.


Thoughts?

 

[Anubis]

unless your speaker is abnormally wide doing what you posted in that pic for 1 stud (which gives you roughly 30 inches of space to work with for the speaker) you should have no issues even if load bearing. If you were cutting into 2+ studs yea it would be a bad idea

otherwise a shelf is a fine option

 

[Fallen Kell]

Assuming your room dimensions work, shifting the TV so that it is centered between 2 studs is you best option, and then use a vertical center channel speaker in the space between the studs directly in line with the TV.

Converting a load bearing wall to have a section that is open like that would involve needing a general contractor and possibly building inspector/permits to make sure the structure is safe. In other words, not worth the hassle if you can simply shift the TV eight inches left or right...

 

[Aikouka]

unless your speaker is abnormally wide doing what you posted in that pic for 1 stud (which gives you roughly 30 inches of space to work with for the speaker) you should have no issues even if load bearing. If you were cutting into 2+ studs yea it would be a bad idea

otherwise a shelf is a fine option

The photo features a cut-out that's larger than what I need. I decided to try out Monoprice's speakers, and their center channel speaker isn't that large (13.6" x 5.9").

Assuming your room dimensions work, shifting the TV so that it is centered between 2 studs is you best option, and then use a vertical center channel speaker in the space between the studs directly in line with the TV.

Converting a load bearing wall to have a section that is open like that would involve needing a general contractor and possibly building inspector/permits to make sure the structure is safe. In other words, not worth the hassle if you can simply shift the TV eight inches left or right...

I agree that moving the TV is the easiest option if I want to continue to use an in-wall center channel speaker. Although, it does have two side effects that are not "OCD friendly". The first is that the TV being off-center will require all other speakers to match the spacing. For example, my original plan was to have the front speakers at about 2 feet from the edge, but that won't work as they have to be equidistant from the TV. I'd also have to do some measurements as that may put one of the front channel speakers into a stud. Also, if you're just a bit anal retentive about things "looking right" a TV that's off center may look weird if the entire room is dedicated to seating.

Just to note, I clarified above that the opening would only need to span a single stud where the reference photo spans two studs.

In Alabama, we use the International Building Code, and I've been looking through it to see if I can find any rules on what requires a permit. The only note that I could find actually refers to cost of labor and materials where a permit is required for $1000 or more worth of work. At worst, I can call up and ask. It's hard to find specific advice about load-bearing wall modification when it's a small job like this. Most of the advice that I find is in regard to adding doors or windows, or just removing walls. At least from what I understand, the first two can be handled without an engineer (unless the door/window is very wide -- e.g. bay window or sliding glass door), but the latter will usually require an engineer to determine the proper support size for the span/load.

Based upon reading Table 2308.9.6, it should require a 2-2x4 at the most (~24 foot width, ~2-8 span). It's on page 6/34 of this PDF.

 

[fralexandr]

Another option is to try it with no center channel (phantom center) and see how it sounds, then consider doing something if it doesn't work well. This should work ok if it's just meant for a few people sitting more or less centered between the front L/R.
You should be able to disable the center channel in your receiver.

avsforum has a thread on stud/center channel, with some non-optimal alternatives if not cutting a stud (phantom center, 2 centers w/ only 1 connected, slightly off centered speaker, not in wall center)
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1169811-wall-center-speaker-stud-way.html

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Is there a reason for in wall center channel speakers looking like normal center channel speakers except for the fact that people expect center channels to look like that...? Why not just use a third front L/R speaker?

 

[purbeast0]

if it HAS to be dead center, then personally i would just get a shelf and put it directly under the tv and place the speaker on it. it's not like your TV is going to be in wall so having a speaker that also isn't in wall would be ok IMO.

another suggestion which is probably more of a pain in the ass than fixing the stud situation would be to build a false wall, but if that wall is a pretty large span, again, that is going to be a bigger headache than cutting out the stud.

 

[Aikouka]

Another option is to try it with no center channel (phantom center) and see how it sounds, then consider doing something if it doesn't work well. This should work ok if it's just meant for a few people sitting more or less centered between the front L/R.
You should be able to disable the center channel in your receiver.

avsforum has a thread on stud/center channel, with some non-optimal alternatives if not cutting a stud (phantom center, 2 centers w/ only 1 connected, slightly off centered speaker, not in wall center)
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1169811-wall-center-speaker-stud-way.html

Yep, I found that thread when I was looking around for information. I'm not sure if a phantom center would be the best solution as I saw a lot of dislike for that method.

Is there a reason for in wall center channel speakers looking like normal center channel speakers except for the fact that people expect center channels to look like that...? Why not just use a third front L/R speaker?

I'm not sure what you're asking about here. You can technically use any speaker that you want for a center channel, but it should still be centered directly beneath, above or behind the screen (depending on the setup).

if it HAS to be dead center, then personally i would just get a shelf and put it directly under the tv and place the speaker on it. it's not like your TV is going to be in wall so having a speaker that also isn't in wall would be ok IMO.

That is a good point. Although, I did try to get a full-pivot wall-mount with the smallest minimum depth, and the one I got goes to a minimum of ~2.8" (most others were around 3"+). My TV's depth is 2.32", so I'll have an overall depth of about 5".

If I'm worried about depth, maybe the best idea is to actually get the TV mounted to the wall, and get an idea of what it will look like with a speaker on a shelf vs. in-wall.

another suggestion which is probably more of a pain in the ass than fixing the stud situation would be to build a false wall, but if that wall is a pretty large span, again, that is going to be a bigger headache than cutting out the stud.

That'd be a 16-foot faux wall, so it'd be a bit of work.

Although, that did remind me of another fun task that I'm going to run into. People generally like to have a connector box right behind the TV, which supplies the video and the power to the TV. However, from what I've read, most people try to daisy-chain power from a plug that within the same stud cavity, which I don't have. So, I'd either have to take the romex down through the crawlspace and back up into the other stud cavity or pull it through the studs. The prior is easier, but honestly, with all the wiring work I need to do in that room, I'm halfway tempted to just rip the drywall off and do the latter. I have to wire up a 7.2 system including power and Ethernet.

 

[fralexandr]

"Center" channel speakers are generally low height and wider, so that they don't block the TV. In wall speakers shouldn't have that problem :S. Thus in wall speakers that look like typical center channel speakers seem silly because they typically can't have as good sound quality as normal front L/R speakers due to their dimensions and layout, right?

Any reason you don't want to go with a projector + acoustically transparent screen?

 

[Aikouka]

One other thing I'm wondering about... some people prefer having insulation behind their in-wall speakers to help enclose the speaker. Does anyone have any opinions on this?

"Center" channel speakers are generally low height and wider, so that they don't block the TV. In wall speakers shouldn't have that problem :S. Thus in wall speakers that look like typical center channel speakers seem silly because they typically can't have as good sound quality as normal front L/R speakers due to their dimensions and layout, right?

Center channel speakers are usually built in a horizontal enclosure because of where they sit (beneath or above a TV).My current Polk speakers are designed so you can flip it over for use underneath a TV (angles the speakers a bit more upward) and the other way for use above a TV.

When I was looking up information on in-wall speakers, some users did report that they just used the same in-wall speaker as a center-channel speaker. So, you can certainly do it. This is the center channel that I went with, and this is the speakers I'm using for front, rear and surrounds. The only thing that worries me about how well they'll work is the fact that the center channel has smaller speakers (5.25" vs. 6.5"). My setup right now uses Polk Monitor 70s (has 4x 6.5" drivers in each), and I originally used a Polk CS1 center channel (5.25" driver), but I found that it was just too quiet. I upgraded to the CS2 (6.5" driver), and it was a lot better.

Any reason you don't want to go with a projector + acoustically transparent screen?

If I was looking for a new TV, I'd probably go with a projector. When I bought my TV about a year or two ago, I lived in an apartment, and I wasn't too keen on messing with the ceiling to mount a projector. Although, I'm also picky when it comes to 3D content. I like 3D to a degree (IMAX's Under the Sea is pretty awesome), but I don't like active 3D. Passive 3D is a bit awkward with projectors as it requires a silver screen and either two projectors or a special switching polarizer. Passive 3D on a LCD is a bit more simple, but it's pretty rare. Vizio and LG were doing it (Vizio licensed LG's tech), but Vizio stopped with last year's models.

Oh, and I also get to install a 5.1 in-wall setup in my bedroom, and I'll probably run into this problem there too. Fortunately, I'm pretty certain that wall is not load bearing (internal, short wall, runs perpendicular to the long side).

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

One possible alternative is a thin, wall-mountable center channel, something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/KEF-T301CWH-Center-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00CFEXEZC

It's not cheap but would it resolve the problem.

 

[Aikouka]

One possible alternative is a thin, wall-mountable center channel, something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/KEF-T301CWH-Center-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00CFEXEZC

It's not cheap but would it resolve the problem.

You weren't kidding about it not being cheap. However, a review for that speaker's complete set did mention something interesting. Apparently, there are other thin speakers, but they're thicker than those. The review said up to 2.5", but 2.5" is about as thick as my TV itself. Although, I can't seem to find any.

 

[Randy99CL]

One more option is to use two center speakers, one on each side of the center stud.
You could get away with smaller drivers since they'd be doubled up.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

You weren't kidding about it not being cheap. However, a review for that speaker's complete set did mention something interesting. Apparently, there are other thin speakers, but they're thicker than those. The review said up to 2.5", but 2.5" is about as thick as my TV itself. Although, I can't seem to find any.

The 2.5" speakers are probably the Klipsch ones:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_714G12B/Klipsch-Gallery-G-12-Flat-Panel-Speaker.html?tp=191

Those are about as inexpensive as it gets for thin, on-wall speakers. Even the ones I linked previously are on the low end of the cost spectrum.

 

[Aikouka]

One more option is to use two center speakers, one on each side of the center stud.
You could get away with smaller drivers since they'd be doubled up.

I was wondering whether that would be possible, but I saw someone remark that you shouldn't have two centers that work off the same center channel.

There are some comments on it in these threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...annel-speakers-side-byside-configuration.html
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/246324-2-center-channel-speakers/

I wish it was well received, because it would definitely be a solution that matched and was easy!

The 2.5" speakers are probably the Klipsch ones:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_714G12B/Klipsch-Gallery-G-12-Flat-Panel-Speaker.html?tp=191

Those are about as inexpensive as it gets for thin, on-wall speakers. Even the ones I linked previously are on the low end of the cost spectrum.

Hm, you can even get the G28 for a decent price. One nice thing is that I can get that previous one at Accessories4Less for only $250, which is a tad bit easier to stomach than $400.

Honestly, I'm pretty tempted. Although, there's that HGTV-watching part of me that wouldn't mind trying to take on a project like messing with a wall, but there's the sane part of me that says, "You're going to mess it up! Go the safe route!"

 

[Fallen Kell]

I will tell you that you do not want to skimp on the performance of the center channel. The majority of all the speaking/vocals happen through this channel, and thus the majority of what you are paying attention to in a movie is being presented via this speaker. You also need one that is voiced similar to your front left and right channel so that when there are the occasional times when position of the speaker moves such that part of the voice is now coming from those other two speakers it needs to sound very much the same.

It is part of the reason why each line of speakers that are designed for surround sound have their own center channel and don't simply have one or two center channels that the manufacturer makes which are used across all the various lines. The things that play the most in having a matching center channel to the left/right speakers is using the same or extremely similar drivers and tweeters, and a similar crossover matrix such that the frequency ranges that each driver/tweeter is actually producing are the same between the two types of speakers (especially through the human vocal frequency range).



As for insulation around inwall speakers, I would actually argue that you create a tuned cavity/box that your speaker sits in. Almost all speakers are designed to be used in an enclosure of a certain dimension (planar/ribbon speakers, and infinite baffle speakers are the exceptions). The product information should tell you what size enclosure the speakers are optimally designed to be contained with-in, so simply make a sealed box around the speaker which is mounted in the space of your wall. I believe there have been some companies that have sold in-wall speaker boxes/enclosures (I know Polk did for their high end in-wall speakers which were simply designed to be dropped right in between the 16" stud space which included internal wiring and a connection box that you could patch to on the bottom through the drywall with a nice faceplate/box, or behind the drywall and skip the faceplate).

 

[Aikouka]

I will tell you that you do not want to skimp on the performance of the center channel. The majority of all the speaking/vocals happen through this channel, and thus the majority of what you are paying attention to in a movie is being presented via this speaker. You also need one that is voiced similar to your front left and right channel so that when there are the occasional times when position of the speaker moves such that part of the voice is now coming from those other two speakers it needs to sound very much the same.

I definitely don't disagree with you on that. I've read a lot of the AVS Forum thread on the Monoprice speakers, and quite a few users state that they use the same speaker all around -- including the center channel. I'm planning on using the same speaker all around with the exception of the center channel. I'm tempted to try the speaker out with it outside the wall so I can get a sense of its volume, but I don't think I'll get the best idea of its overall performance until its in the wall.

 

[purbeast0]

I definitely don't disagree with you on that. I've read a lot of the AVS Forum thread on the Monoprice speakers, and quite a few users state that they use the same speaker all around -- including the center channel. I'm planning on using the same speaker all around with the exception of the center channel. I'm tempted to try the speaker out with it outside the wall so I can get a sense of its volume, but I don't think I'll get the best idea of its overall performance until its in the wall.

ideally, you want the same exact speaker for LCR. if you can logistically do it, i'm not sure why you wouldn't make the center match the others.

 

[Mushkins]

Would using a speaker bar as your center channel be a solution? It's not in-wall, but it still looks sharp hanging directly under or above your TV and totally avoids your stud problem.

 

[Aikouka]

ideally, you want the same exact speaker for LCR. if you can logistically do it, i'm not sure why you wouldn't make the center match the others.

I still could do it as I have a few sets of the speakers. Although, do you really think it would make much of a difference in the end? I could see the driver size making a bit of a difference, but how much would Audyssey MultEQ help make up for that? It would detect the lower output from the speaker and adjust for it, right?

Would using a speaker bar as your center channel be a solution? It's not in-wall, but it still looks sharp hanging directly under or above your TV and totally avoids your stud problem.

Do you mean a soundbar?

 

[fralexandr]

the center channel thing has to do with tonal differences. Using the exact same speaker as the front L/R is ideal, but the same series is usually tonally matched.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre
Some speakers are "warm" some are "bright", etc. For example, there's a vast difference between Polk and Klipsch speakers. Using a Klipsch center with Polk L/R or vice versa, would probably be a bad idea.

The Fronts and the surrounds don't need to be that closely matched, so people tend to use cheaper speakers for the surrounds, as they're not as important.

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mushkin probably means soundbar. I think I've heard it called speakerbar before.

They would look nicer than a normal center channel because they're long and narrow, and you might even be able to find some that match the length of your TV. It might be hard finding matching L/R for soundbars, but you could try sticking to the same brand. It'd probably make more sense to go with a stereo soundbar versus a virtual surround soundbar.

Good soundbars are also pretty expensive, since making a relatively small speaker sound good is harder than making a large speaker sound good. Not a great idea when on a low budget and looking for sound quality.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/195-soundbars/1089692-soundbar-center-speaker.html