Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
Which part? Guns readily available since the 19th century?


Ny SAFE:
Featureless requirements for ARs
- only fixed stocks (why?)
- no pistol grips, no thumbholes on grips (why?)
- non removable 10 rd magazines, ar must be disassembled to reload (possible reduced lethality, but easily circumvented)
- no muzzle brakes allowed (why?)
- online ammo purchases must be shipped to an FFL (why?)

Criminal easily disabled the restrictive features... Had plenty of ammo and magazines, did not get flagged.

Should we discuss the upcoming ATF rule changes for arm braces for pistol carbines?

You call that hostile to law abiding citizens? Wtf is wrong with you?
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,289
9,127
136
Same to an extent. I am not really a gun guy or gun lover. I bought 1 9mm pistol to ward off Trumper/Right Wing nuts since im unfortunate enough to live in a red state small town. But its in a biometric safe in a night stand drawer out of sight. I have no kids. Just my wife and I. So our risk is very small, but not zero. But im a gun control advocate and would freely give it up if America was to actually do the right thing on gun bans. Zero qualms giving it up.

Same story here ...
 

Amol S.

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
2,411
713
136
If we left the US House and Senate to be run by AI bots that were programed by a non-partisianed group of people, a lot more work would have been done. That is a real shame.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,301
13,613
146
If we left the US House and Senate to be run by AI bots that were programed by a non-partisianed group of people, a lot more work would have been done. That is a real shame.
Most likely, I've been in support of an AI/nonpartisan algorithm controlled govt for a long while now. We could do perfect districting maps in a few minutes if properly motivated.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
If we left the US House and Senate to be run by AI bots that were programed by a non-partisianed group of people, a lot more work would have been done. That is a real shame.

Until Russia hacks it and then we are right back where we started
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
759
146
Are you looking for the odds ratio? It makes you about ten times more likely to die from suicide.
It’s really bad.
That must be suggesting you’re 10x more likely to kill yourself with a gun if you own one vs not owning but may have killed themselves via another method, so your statement is not accurate. Wouldn’t even pass the sniff test to interpret it your way, since UK is only slightly below despite much less gun ownership and more hoops to jump for ownership, which weeds out some of the mentally off (even if we adjust for demographics, it’s probably mostly a wash with universal health care and a more robust safety net in UK).

This shows a lack of understanding of how suicide works. It is not the result of a carefully considered plan, it’s a unique moment of despair.

Lol Suicide doesn’t just work that way.

Most people who attempt suicide and fail never attempt it again, so the means people use matter a lot. Guns are a very effective method of suicide, so they are uniquely dangerous in that way.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/
Approximately 7% (range: 5-11%) of attempters eventually died by suicide, approximately 23% reattempted nonfatally, and 70% had no further attempts.

For the remaining that are impulsive....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4965648/
Results
A total of 48.0% of the participants were impelled by sudden inclinations to attempt suicide. Impulsive attempters were younger, unmarried and less physical illness than non-impulsive attempters, whereas no significant differences were found on psychiatric history and previous suicide history. Impulsive suicide attempters had suicide ideations that were not as severe (χ2=55.33, p<0.001) or intense (t=-8.38, p<0.001) as their counterparts'. Furthermore, medical results of impulsive suicide attempts were better than non-impulsive suicide attempts (t=-3.77, p<0.001).
Conclusion
The results suggested that a considerable proportion of suicide attempts were the result of sudden inclinations. Impulsive attempts were made in relatively earlier stages of suicide ideation; consequently, they have less intent than non-impulsive attempts.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,297
6,355
126
You remind me of people who claim they cannot be brainwashed and are immune to advertising influence and propaganda.

Ironically, they are all universally puppets and completely oblivious to it.

Fact: Owning guns puts you and others in your home at an increased risk of death statistically.
Yes,. there are steps you can take to lower that risk., However, DENYING that risk simply elevates the risk.

The fact that you deny the risk, rather than recognize it and take steps to diminish it speaks volumes.
Didn't he just say what he does to minimize risk?

And speaking of risk, does the risk go up for somebody trying to kill me when I am armed? What is the comparison of the risk faced by the armed from being armed compare to the risk faced by an attacker attacking an armed defender?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,297
6,355
126
over half the politicians in congress WANT to do something. the other (slightly less than) half are preventing anything from happening. you need to change the half that won't do anything in order to actually get something done. and guess what? the people who elect that intractable half don't give a flying fuck. so we're stuck.
Yeah, and guess why the're intractable.
 

m8d

Senior member
Nov 5, 2012
638
1,025
136
It would be nice if the Pro-Fetus people showed as much concern for the living children then they could be called Pro-Life. Remember that Pro-Life
is Cradle to Grave.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
That must be suggesting you’re 10x more likely to kill yourself with a gun if you own one vs not owning but may have killed themselves via another method, so your statement is not accurate. Wouldn’t even pass the sniff test to interpret it your way, since UK is only slightly below despite much less gun ownership and more hoops to jump for ownership, which weeds out some of the mentally off (even if we adjust for demographics, it’s probably mostly a wash with universal health care and a more robust safety net in UK).



Lol Suicide doesn’t just work that way.



https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/
Approximately 7% (range: 5-11%) of attempters eventually died by suicide, approximately 23% reattempted nonfatally, and 70% had no further attempts.

For the remaining that are impulsive....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4965648/
Results
A total of 48.0% of the participants were impelled by sudden inclinations to attempt suicide. Impulsive attempters were younger, unmarried and less physical illness than non-impulsive attempters, whereas no significant differences were found on psychiatric history and previous suicide history. Impulsive suicide attempters had suicide ideations that were not as severe (χ2=55.33, p<0.001) or intense (t=-8.38, p<0.001) as their counterparts'. Furthermore, medical results of impulsive suicide attempts were better than non-impulsive suicide attempts (t=-3.77, p<0.001).
Conclusion
The results suggested that a considerable proportion of suicide attempts were the result of sudden inclinations. Impulsive attempts were made in relatively earlier stages of suicide ideation; consequently, they have less intent than non-impulsive attempts.

Congrats on your poor comprehension because everything you just posted supported his claims including the first one in which you said his statement was inaccurate when in fact it was.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,645
8,531
136
I read your abstract with the outlying data, read a different abstract, different conclusion, posted the global suicide rates which demonstrate your study doesn't really pass a sanity check.

Overall poor association globally with suicide rates and gun ownership.

Then you pivot to "but culture". How many suicides exactly will be stopped by your policy (which will never happen because it's unconstitutional.)

If you want to save a bunch of lives, ban sugar and fast food. Twice as many die from diabetes than suicide.


Trying to pretend there's anything remotely 'scientific' about comparing suicide rates between completely different countries and societies is absurd. Comparisons of global suicide rates like that say nothing at all about the topic at hand.

You'd need to look at the effect of changes in the availability of means, within a given society/nation.

There's evidence that easy access to the means of suicide has an effect on overall suicide rates.

E.g. the switch from "town gas" to natural gas in the domestic gas supply here appeared to reduce the suicide rate.


Likewise, the changes in rules about selling economy-size bottles of paracetamol seemed to reduce the suicide rates


On the other hand, this study claims to find no reduction in suicide rates from the Australian gun ban (and claims that previous studies that claimed to do so were flawed).


I am sure it's complicated (did guns play the same cultural role in Australia that they do in the US?) and hard to put precise numbers on, but the evidence clearly suggests that a lot of suicides are impulsive acts and the likelihood of someone acting is greatly influenced by having a reliable method right there at hand when the desire is at its strongest.

I think there's also evidence that suicide rates tend to be higher in professions that have access to the means, e.g. medical workers (drugs) or farmers (shotguns or pesticides).
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
759
146
Congrats on your poor comprehension because everything you just posted supported his claims including the first one in which you said his statement was inaccurate when in fact it was.

I decided to look up articles and this is what I found:


Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t.

So it's as I said.

It says further:

The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who did not own handguns. The elevated risk was driven by higher rates of suicide by firearm. Handgun owners did not have higher rates of suicide by other methods or higher rates of death generally.

So already halved

And...

Disentangling competing explanations

One major challenge with studies examining the relationship between gun access and suicide risk has been determining whether people who purchase handguns already have plans in place to harm themselves, or whether the presence of a handgun creates new risks.

The unique, longitudinal nature of the Stanford study helped to disentangle these competing explanations.

There appears to be some of both happening,” said senior author Matthew Miller, professor of health sciences and epidemiology at Northeastern University. “New handgun buyers had extremely high risks of dying by firearm suicide immediately after the purchase. However, more than half of all firearm suicides in this group occurred a year or more later. Consistent with prior work, our findings indicate that gun access poses a substantial and enduring risk.”


So easy to see ratio further reduced.





 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,297
6,355
126
I really wish people would just say ‘I love guns and I don’t care about the facts’ as opposed to inventing reasons why gun ownership isn’t dumb.
I can imagine you would like that. Unfortunately if they are going to be bold enough to tell you the truth it would be that your idea of what is dumb is seems dumber to them dumber than theirs.

Liberals are quite arrogant when it comes to calling people dumb. It's one of their major messaging defects. People don't give a shit about logical risk assessment. For millions of years survival success depended on split second decisions, not weighing tons of statistics. The only self defense logic I care about is having some chance to kill somebody first who wants to kill me. It's one of those illogical things that are baked into our genes. Even in Christianity the idea behind turning the other cheek is self protection, an effort to keep it down to that single blow. Early Christians didn't have guns or the capacity to form militias to ward off the Roman Legion.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
I decided to look up articles and this is what I found:


Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t.

So it's as I said.

It says further:

The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who did not own handguns. The elevated risk was driven by higher rates of suicide by firearm. Handgun owners did not have higher rates of suicide by other methods or higher rates of death generally.

So already halved

And...

Disentangling competing explanations

One major challenge with studies examining the relationship between gun access and suicide risk has been determining whether people who purchase handguns already have plans in place to harm themselves, or whether the presence of a handgun creates new risks.

The unique, longitudinal nature of the Stanford study helped to disentangle these competing explanations.

There appears to be some of both happening,” said senior author Matthew Miller, professor of health sciences and epidemiology at Northeastern University. “New handgun buyers had extremely high risks of dying by firearm suicide immediately after the purchase. However, more than half of all firearm suicides in this group occurred a year or more later. Consistent with prior work, our findings indicate that gun access poses a substantial and enduring risk.”


So easy to see ratio further reduced.

So now you are just resorting to straw man arguments?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,297
6,355
126
You call that hostile to law abiding citizens? Wtf is wrong with you?
Are you saying he's not a law abiding citizen who just said it is. Self hate manifests as put down of other people like asking what is wrong with them. There was never anything wrong with you and if you knew it you would know there is nothing wrong with him.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
759
146
So now you are just resorting to straw man arguments?

Okay, my bad for assuming the researchers would use common sense, haha. His study does distinguish in the abstract that it's not just suicide by gun. I'm going with that it's a stupid study.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
Are you saying he's not a law abiding citizen who just said it is. Self hate manifests as put down of other people like asking what is wrong with them. There was never anything wrong with you and if you knew it you would know there is nothing wrong with him.

His argument revolves around, criminals can defeat so it’s an inconvenience. Like yeah, no shit, that’s the whole point. What law abiding citizen has a compelling need to not be inconvenienced by the things he listed? There are none.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,558
15,444
136
Okay, my bad for assuming the researchers would use common sense, haha. His study does distinguish in the abstract that it's not just suicide by gun. I'm going with that it's a stupid study.

No you just aren’t comprehending the nuances between the two studies and keep trying to compare the two as if they are the same but with different results. Aka a lack of reading comprehension.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,253
10,841
136
I'd really rather not walk down this very well-trodden path, but I would like to point out that you're basically saying that the solution to a supreme court that makes decisions on the fly is to get a different supreme court to make new decisions on the fly that support what you want. That's what got us into this shitstorm to begin with.
No, I want one that reads the constitution as written and as every court in the US did until 2008.
 
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RnR_au

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2021
2,045
4,959
106
I am sure it's complicated (did guns play the same cultural role in Australia that they do in the US?)
Posting from Australia... the answer is no. But Australia never had your scale of indigenous resistance in colonisation, nor have we had a civil war, nor the religious overtones with its first settlements.

America is weird. A bible in one hand. A gun in the other. Oil and water. How the fark you guys somehow manages to mix the two is incomprehensible to the rest of the outside world.

My knowledge of the history of America is woeful, so my apologies if I have stepped on toes.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,253
10,841
136
Really not sure what we’re paying many cops for at this point.

Cops are so fucking worthless. I'm sure they'll all get medals, but they should all be shit canned. Send the message that pussy cops will not be tolerated, especially when kids are bleeding out.

I can only recall one school shooting were the cops actually stopped the active shooting. Every other case they've just waited for the gunman to run out of will.

Imagine fire fighters that refuse to go into a burning building until it was done burning. Actually, the last week of school, my daughter's school had an AC unit burn up and set of the smoke alarms. Fire department was there inside in full gear in less than 10 minutes. Thank god they didn't ask the police to come, the school would've burned to the ground.
 
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