Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

[Pipeline 1010]

Switzerland seems to be fine.

Did they used to have a high gun ownership rate? What did they do to reduce it?

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Australia?

Australia only reduced the number of guns owned by 30% or so. And in the decades since their attempt, there are now more guns owned in Australia than before their "ban".

 

[Stokely]

LOL on the idea of arming teachers. That's as hilarious as all the suggestions of turning every school into some impregnable castle. Teachers already are buying supplies, where's the money going to come from, is the NRA going to donate funds? Raise taxes! Every politician can't wait to get behind that one.

It's already difficult to find good teachers to take relatively low pay, put up with asinine curriculum decisions in some states, deal with parents and school admin alike, and then also deal with difficult students. Now we are going to get them to take down active shooters... The only ones teaching now are those that really love it despite all that, or ones that can't do anything else--and you'll be losing a bunch of the first group if you start asking them to fucking pack heat. But that's all a-ok for the GOP, who would love to gut public education. I wonder if the teachers of all the private Christian schools will need to carry, or if they'll have the money to spend on actual protection (whatever that is worth).

I work at a university with a security dept. After our active shooter talks which we'd have once a year, someone would always ask if they could bring their shootin iron to work. Nope, said security every year. We want to be the only ones with guns around here. Ah, the disappointment in my coworkers' eyes at that pronouncement, and the relief in mine...

I'm sure the teachers are looking forward to the inevitable lawsuits they'll get for tasing or shooting some kid, probably after missing the one they were aiming at. For fuck's sake. I'm sure good ol Mrs Brown I had in 7th grade, who looked like she'd need help to lift a book, is going to be able to accurately and quickly tase some active shooter, assuming she didn't faint first.

We have officially entered Monty Python land if this is ever considered seriously. If teachers had actual lethal guns that would be the time I'd home school, personally (though mine are in college anyway at this point). It's way more likely some kid or shooter would just take it away from most teachers vs they'd actually use it effectively.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Teachers have already sacrificed their lives to protect children. There are many incidents of teachers sacrificing their lives by placing their bodies between the shooter and their students. I would never EXPECT a teacher to become armed, but I wouldn't deny them the opportunity. The ability to fire back at an attacker might significantly change the situation both tactically AND from a deterrence perspective.

We should pay them extra if they CHOOSE to become armed/trained. Absolutely. Pay them more than LEOs.

Anyhow, this is all "band-aid" fixes and doesn't solve the violence problem in America. We can do this, and it may help, but this isn't the solution.

What solution would you propose?

Edit: imagine a teacher harms a student while firing back at the gunman, smh, this country is fuct up man

 

[ch33zw1z]

Australia only reduced the number of guns owned by 30% or so. And in the decades since their attempt, there are now more guns owned in Australia than before their "ban".

How’s their gun deaths trending

 

[Stokely]

Current estimates of civilian guns per capita, according to this wiki article, which to be fair is 2017.

Aus: 14.5
USA: 120.5

Next on the list after us:
Falkland f-ing Islands at 62. Yemen is #3 at 52.8

It drops off a lot after that.

America is definitely leading the way in the "more guns == more safety" experiment. Hey, we are doing it so the rest of you don't have to If the Aussies are looking over at the US and saying "hey, get me some of THAT!" and beefed up their gun ownership since 2017, so be it.

 

[IronWing]

^ per 100 capita.

 

[brycejones]

^ per 100 capita.

Once we hit 200 guns per 100 capita (all the capitas, you have to look at all the capitas) then we'll be safer.

 

[IronWing]

Once we hit 200 guns per 100 capita (all the capitas, you have to look at all the capitas) then we'll be safer.

I think if gun owners were required to carry all of their guns with them at all times, it would cut down on the gun fetish thing. Guns are a lot heavier in real life than in video games.

 

[brycejones]

I think if gun owners were required to carry all of their guns with them at all times, it would cut down on the gun fetish thing. Guns are a lot heavier in real life than in video games.

Nah, they would just get bigger rascals with enough built in places to attach them all.

insert family guy "everyone to your rascals" meme here

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Australia?

Wieambilla would like a word. Yes, very rare case, but it happened.

 

[brycejones]

Wieambilla would like a word. Yes, very rare case, but it happened.

Compared to the rate in the US? It would be a VAST improvement. The point that maybe you missed is that mass shootings have become extremely rare there after they took action but in the US our lack of action has translated into world leading rates of mass casualty events outside of war zones.

 

[snoopy7548]

Agreed. I don't even want school resource officers at schools. When you hire a cop or 2 to work at a school, they just end up policing the children instead of protecting them.

I do think that teachers should be allowed to become trained and carry (if they wish). Is this the best solution? NO!!! Is it a bandaid at best? Yes! We need to address the underlying issues with gun violence, but unless or until those are addressed, I can't help but think I'd want to be armed if I were a teacher and I encountered a school shooter. There is also a deterrent value to the thought that some teachers might be armed. There is a reason that none of these mass shootings happen at police stations.

Remember when you were in school, you had that one (or two or three) teacher with the snaggletooth, or weird limp, or talked funny, that every kid ruthlessly made fun of and never respected, and it clearly made the teacher upset? Allowing them to bring guns to school sounds like a great idea...

The underlying issue with gun violence is that there are too many guns owned by too many people who have no business owning them. The cat's out of the bag; society has ruined gun ownership for the responsible gun owners. More gun owners is only going to make the problem worse.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^^ 'Now, Jenny, remember we musn't tell anyone about our special after school sessions, must we' (said while patting a bulge under his arm).

'No, Mr Jordan, I understand' replies Jenny meekly and with eyes averted towards the floor.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Remember when you were in school, you had that one (or two or three) teacher with the snaggletooth, or weird limp, or talked funny, that every kid ruthlessly made fun of and never respected, and it clearly made the teacher upset? Allowing them to bring guns to school sounds like a great idea...

When I was in school there was literally nothing preventing snaggletooth or weird limp from bringing a gun to school and doing what you think they will do if they get upset. There isn't much preventing them from doing so today as well. Nobody is going to just hand them a gun and say "go get dem bad boys, snaggelz". There is a precedent of mental evaluation and training that has a pretty good track record with teachers who are currently armed. School resource officers? Not so much.

The underlying issue with gun violence is that there are too many guns owned by too many people who have no business owning them. The cat's out of the bag; society has ruined gun ownership for the responsible gun owners. More gun owners is only going to make the problem worse.

The underlying issue with gun violence is that there are people who want to use them to kill people. Removing guns removes a method of killing. It doesn't remove the murder from a man's heart.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

How’s their gun deaths trending

Their gun deaths were trending down before the ban. The trend continued after the ban. The ban didn't actually remove that many guns. Maybe 20%, and most of those were rimfire (peashooters) or shotguns. ALL OF THOSE were by people who willingly obeyed the law. Not your prime suspects for lawbreaking murderers.

Currently? There are now more guns owned in Australia than before their "ban". Their gun murder rate has remained low despite the large increase in guns.

During the same timeframe, gun ownership in America increased. The federal assault rifle ban was allowed to expire. Yet the gun murder rates in America decreased in similar amounts to those in Australia.

Based on the data, I strongly suspect that there are more influential variables and influences to gun murder rates that number/type of guns owned.

 

[soulcougher73]

The underlying issue with gun violence is that there are people who want to use them to kill people. Removing guns removes a method of killing. It doesn't remove the murder from a man's heart.

We could work on fixing society to be better, so people don't want to kill others, AND remove the best tool for the job from easy reach.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

What solution would you propose?

Edit: imagine a teacher harms a student while firing back at the gunman, smh, this country is fuct up man

There is no one single solution or even combination of solutions to prevent all murders. I think we should focus on solutions that have a good chance to reduce them:

End the war on drugs, which is a major source of violence in the U.S. Treat addiction from a medical/mental health perspective instead of a crime and punishment perspective. For example: look at how Portugal did it.

Increase spending to research/treat mental health issues. Use the massive amounts of money saved from above ^

Continue to implement programs that deter or allow an effective response to mass shootings.

Require a licensing system to be able to own guns. To obtain a license, certain criminal background and mental health checks should be implemented.

I think these could have a positive impact on reducing violence overall in the U.S.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

We could work on fixing society to be better, so people don't want to kill others, AND remove the best tool for the job from easy reach.

YES!!!

I just don't think I've seen effective proposals for how to remove the best tool for the job from easy reach, nor do I see evidence that humans won't just use an alternative tool. We are a resourceful species, especially when motivated.

 

[balloonshark]

Ban ALL fully and semi-automatic weapons and any method to make a gun similar to a fully or semi-automatic. We can do buy-backs, trade-ins, coupons, gift certificates, etc. to encourage the transition. After a designated time period anyone caught with a banned weapon or using one to commit a crime will feel the full weight of the law.

I have two semi-automatic weapons and would trade them in, in a heartbeat. The only reason I bought them is to be on equal footing as my enemies. You heard me right, I only bought guns because too many idiots have them. That reason alone means we have a major f'ing problem in this country.

 

[ch33zw1z]

We could work on fixing society to be better, so people don't want to kill others, AND remove the best tool for the job from easy reach.

There is no one single solution or even combination of solutions to prevent all murders. I think we should focus on solutions that have a good chance to reduce them:

End the war on drugs, which is a major source of violence in the U.S. Treat addiction from a medical/mental health perspective instead of a crime and punishment perspective. For example: look at how Portugal did it.

Increase spending to research/treat mental health issues. Use the massive amounts of money saved from above ^

Continue to implement programs that deter or allow an effective response to mass shootings.

Require a licensing system to be able to own guns. To obtain a license, certain criminal background and mental health checks should be implemented.

I think these could have a positive impact on reducing violence overall in the U.S.

Won’t debate strawman here (I.e. nobody expects all murders to be stopped) , but I’m all for effective change as listed. How do you propose to market this to our gen pop?

 

[Jaskalas]

YES!!!

I just don't think I've seen effective proposals for how to remove the best tool for the job from easy reach, nor do I see evidence that humans won't just use an alternative tool. We are a resourceful species, especially when motivated.

Suicide success rates are determined by whether the victim used a gun. A gun is the deterministic factor FOR A REASON.
There is no alternative to pulling a trigger and blowing away everyone in sight. Such weapons are both efficient, largely effortless to use, and readily available.
As other nations readily and repeatedly demonstrate, when killing becomes more difficult than pulling a trigger, murder and mass murder rates plummet by comparison.

The question is simple. Do you want murder and mass murder rates to plummet. Yes or no.
I happen to choose yes. I want an objectively safer society and less people killed.
Sorry if you struggle with that. But do you take it further and stand in the way? Do you actively block gun control?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Suicide success rates are determined by whether the victim used a gun. A gun is the deterministic factor FOR A REASON.
There is no alternative to pulling a trigger and blowing away everyone in sight. Such weapons are both efficient, largely effortless to use, and readily available.
As other nations readily and repeatedly demonstrate, when killing becomes more difficult than pulling a trigger, murder and mass murder rates plummet by comparison.

The question is simple. Do you want murder and mass murder rates to plummet. Yes or no.
I happen to choose yes. I want an objectively safer society and less people killed.
Sorry if you struggle with that. But do you take it further and stand in the way? Do you actively block gun control?

I'd still rather the reason they have to want to kill themselves or others be what gets resolved, otherwise you're just turning society into an allegory to a padded room.

 

[ch33zw1z]

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

While the number of gun deaths in the U.S. fell for the second consecutive year in 2023, it remained among the highest annual totals on record.

www.pewresearch.org

Good data review

 

[Fenixgoon]

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

While the number of gun deaths in the U.S. fell for the second consecutive year in 2023, it remained among the highest annual totals on record.

www.pewresearch.org

Good data review

just a note that the per-capita data is crucial because the US population is about 65% higher than in 1968 when those graphs begin. regardless, they are sobering statistics. in 60 years we've (net) accomplished nothing, and actually become a bit worse.