Individuals and groups.

[OinkBoink]

Deep down, I have never liked the notion of being defined by the country I was born into, the colour of my skin, the ethnic group I belong to etc. All these things are (or at least seem to be) an accident of chance and an accident of birth. I had no role in choosing them. I had no role in choosing to be born in the first place. None of us do.

I am an individual. I am me. In that sense, I am unique, as is everyone else.

But we live in a society. Our lives depend on each other.

I usually refrain from talking about groups and things associated with groups like culture, group identity etc. This is because everyone is different and has his/her own beliefs, ideas, idiosyncrasies etc. But, in order to survive, group identity is essential. Like it or not, this is the way nature works. In a violent riot between group A and group B (groups based on any particular characteristic), people from group B, by and large, wouldn't care about my beliefs and ideas if I were a member of group A (perhaps these groups are based on skin colour for instance, something I have no control over). I would be likely to be killed anyway. On the other hand, if I go against an idea that most people of the group I belong to adhere to, I would likely be deemed a traitor and I would again be at the risk of being harmed. This is a horrible situation to be in, and I hope I never find myself in such a situation.

Talking about groups is a complex endeavour because there are so many variables involved. Arguments often become convoluted and people tend to get an "us versus them" mentality without considering variations between individuals within the same group.

Taking all this into regard, I sort of feel lost in this world.

What do you think about individuals and groups?

 

[Anarchist420]

Discrimination can be good even if govts do it. For example, if the govt were constitutionally bar everyone but black asexual female muslims in the military, then the govt would collapse in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the govt would never do that.

Those who discriminate in hiring, serving, whatever, based on race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc., may be happier than if they weren't allowed to discriminate so that's not a bad thing.

Also, eventually, people do discriminate when several characteristics are combined.

If there was no discrimination, then that wouldn't be natural and we'd all be the same... that would be no fun.

 

[woolfe9998]

If there was no discrimination, then that wouldn't be natural and we'd all be the same... that would be no fun.

No, we wouldn't all be the "same." We'd all be different, as unique individuals. Discrimination, which really means differentiation, would still occur at the level of the individual. It simply wouldn't be based on group identity. I fail to see how the sense of group identity makes life more "fun." In many ways, a group identity is actually constraining to the individual.

 

[Geosurface]

Deep down, I have never liked the notion of being defined by the country I was born into, the colour of my skin, the ethnic group I belong to etc. All these things are (or at least seem to be) an accident of chance and an accident of birth. I had no role in choosing them. I had no role in choosing to be born in the first place. None of us do.

I am an individual. I am me. In that sense, I am unique, as is everyone else.

I felt exactly the same as what you're describing for most of my life. I resented the idea of my local sports teams, even... I didn't like having any sort of group identity. It offended my sense of myself as an individual.

I didn't like latching my identity to anything which I saw as an accident of my birth, either. Whether that be gender, race, nationality... you name it.

I have a different perspective now, even if I still have many of those same instincts.

What I've come to realize, or at least... how I've come to think about it now is something along these lines:

My ancestors, in an incredibly long line going all the way back to the dawn of humanity... and more recently people struggling mightily to live through the Irish potato famine, immigrating to the US, struggling to get by... or people further back who faced all sorts of dangers and challenges in the prehistoric or medieval world, anywhere along that timeline... these people went through so much just to survive and have children who survived, to protect their family, and to make their way.

Their identity was important to them. They cared about their people and their land, and their traditions. Heritage mattered to them, kinship mattered to them. Blood mattered to them.

I am not an island and I am not a random roll of the dice, the very fiber of who I am cannot be disconnected from my ancestors and from everything they gave me. So much research has been done which shows that our temperament, the way we think, what we value and what path in life we pursue... are all incredibly influenced by our genes.

For a long time I wanted to think of myself as a pure and complete individual. A self-contained being. I realize now that is not true.

Everything about who and what I am, is a manifestation of who they were. No separation from it is possible, or desirable.

I laughed at my father putting up family crests and researching our genealogy, when I was younger... now I've submitted my DNA to 23andme.com and have found my own fascination with it. I am proud to be part of a group, now. I am proud of my Irish heritage.

The way I see it now, is that I don't have the right to not care about it. It was important to my father, it was important to his father... it was important to my ancestors for hundreds or maybe thousands of years going back. Who the hell am I to be the generation that just turns my nose up at it and decides it suddenly doesn't matter?

What would they think if they knew eventually one of their descendants just decided none of it mattered, he was an individual, and his life (which he wouldn't even have if not for them) was a disconnected event from any group identity?

I don't have the right to think that way. They gave me life, the LEAST I can do is at least care a little bit about what they cared about. And on a related note, this is why I've become disgusted with my only sibling, my older brother, deciding to forego having children. Again, what right is it of ours to decide the line stops with us? It's one thing for that to happen through tragic circumstance, but for people to just make a selfish choice, and for that to be how it fizzles out? Unacceptable. So I intend to have at least one child.

I'm sure this all seems rather silly, but this is how I think about these matters now. Those are my thoughts on one form of group identity, and an argument as to why it could conceivably matter to someone.

 

[woolfe9998]

The concept of group identity is largely responsible for most of the wars, genocide and other violence in human history, whether people are being divided by religion, national origin, ideology, culture or race.

One can respect one's ancestors and traditions while tolerating or even appreciating others. There's no harm in having some sense of group identity when it doesn't involve disdain for those you view as the "out group." Wanting to feel a sense of belonging to something is no excuse for treating other people poorly.

 

[OinkBoink]

I felt exactly the same as what you're describing for most of my life. I resented the idea of my local sports teams, even... I didn't like having any sort of group identity. It offended my sense of myself as an individual.

I didn't like latching my identity to anything which I saw as an accident of my birth, either. Whether that be gender, race, nationality... you name it.

I have a different perspective now, even if I still have many of those same instincts.

What I've come to realize, or at least... how I've come to think about it now is something along these lines:

My ancestors, in an incredibly long line going all the way back to the dawn of humanity... and more recently people struggling mightily to live through the Irish potato famine, immigrating to the US, struggling to get by... or people further back who faced all sorts of dangers and challenges in the prehistoric or medieval world, anywhere along that timeline... these people went through so much just to survive and have children who survived, to protect their family, and to make their way.

Their identity was important to them. They cared about their people and their land, and their traditions. Heritage mattered to them, kinship mattered to them. Blood mattered to them.

I am not an island and I am not a random roll of the dice, the very fiber of who I am cannot be disconnected from my ancestors and from everything they gave me. So much research has been done which shows that our temperament, the way we think, what we value and what path in life we pursue... are all incredibly influenced by our genes.

For a long time I wanted to think of myself as a pure and complete individual. A self-contained being. I realize now that is not true.

Everything about who and what I am, is a manifestation of who they were. No separation from it is possible, or desirable.

I laughed at my father putting up family crests and researching our genealogy, when I was younger... now I've submitted my DNA to 23andme.com and have found my own fascination with it. I am proud to be part of a group, now. I am proud of my Irish heritage.

The way I see it now, is that I don't have the right to not care about it. It was important to my father, it was important to his father... it was important to my ancestors for hundreds or maybe thousands of years going back. Who the hell am I to be the generation that just turns my nose up at it and decides it suddenly doesn't matter?

What would they think if they knew eventually one of their descendants just decided none of it mattered, he was an individual, and his life (which he wouldn't even have if not for them) was a disconnected event from any group identity?

I don't have the right to think that way. They gave me life, the LEAST I can do is at least care a little bit about what they cared about. And on a related note, this is why I've become disgusted with my only sibling, my older brother, deciding to forego having children. Again, what right is it of ours to decide the line stops with us? It's one thing for that to happen through tragic circumstance, but for people to just make a selfish choice, and for that to be how it fizzles out? Unacceptable. So I intend to have at least one child.

I'm sure this all seems rather silly, but this is how I think about these matters now. Those are my thoughts on one form of group identity, and an argument as to why it could conceivably matter to someone.

If you had quoted the rest of my OP, you would have seen that I do NOT believe that any of us are completely self contained entities. That's not possible.

Coming to this other thing about birth.

There's another school of thought (anti-natalism ?) that says that giving birth itself has an element of selfishness involved. You bring forth a human into this world with a given set of innate characteristics and into a given environment, none of which the person being born has control over. There is no consent from the person being born. Of course, it is not possible for someone to give consent when it comes to their own birth, but you can see what this is about. Consent seems to be an important part in most other human endeavours. For instance, if you have sex with a woman without her consent, it is rape.

It is still an important distinction to make when you talk about the obligation you have towards your ancestors versus your obligation to yourself and your individual identity.

It is dangerous when parents have this notion that they can claim absolute ownership over their children because they gave birth to them and can strip them of their individual identity. You could call it a sort of entitlement mentality over one's kids.

There is one thing though. Even if we destroyed all human life and all life in general on this planet, life would arise again somewhere or the other through the natural processes of the universe. There's probably no escaping that.

 

[OinkBoink]

The concept of group identity is largely responsible for most of the wars, genocide and other violence in human history, whether people are being divided by religion, national origin, ideology, culture or race.

One can respect one's ancestors and traditions while tolerating or even appreciating others. There's no harm in having some sense of group identity when it doesn't involve disdain for those you view as the "out group." Wanting to feel a sense of belonging to something is no excuse for treating other people poorly.

In India, there have been instances of extremist cultural groups going to pubs and beating up people, all in the name of the usurpation of "Indian culture" by "western culture".

Many times, I've seen people claim for instance, that the consumption of alcohol among many of the youth is due to "westernisation". I've always found this a little strange, given that the largest consumers of alcohol are probably not urbanised youth, but rather factory workers, truck drivers, and people of the sort. They've hardly had any exposure to "western" thought.

Also, there's a distinction made between "western" medicine versus other forms of medicine, whereas what they should be talking about really is evidence-based medicine versus other forms of medicine.

 

[inf1nity]

Deep down, I have never liked the notion of being defined by the country I was born into, the colour of my skin, the ethnic group I belong to etc. All these things are (or at least seem to be) an accident of chance and an accident of birth. I had no role in choosing them. I had no role in choosing to be born in the first place. None of us do.

tend to agree with this. A hear a lot of people posting things like, I'm proud to be an American, I'm proud of being an Indian(happens a lot here, sadly); proud of being gay(lmao wtf?); proud of being a woman(as if they had to work really hard for it), and it just pisses me off. Anybody who's proud of being something that he didn't work hard for, is a moron.