Installing Windows XP pro with the same cd key on two different computers

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drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Ichinisan
Originally posted by: drag
[stuff]

I'm do not hate Microsoft and I'm not looking for an alternative. I support Microsoft with cash for their product. I do not rip-off their software, but I also don't let them tell me what to do with the disc that I already own.

Well it's nice to know that I can create a company in which I do things you considure unethical, yet people like you will still line up and give money no matter how unreasonable I behaive.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
Works for Enron and Halliburton.

Well, actually...

No it didn't.

If it did work them then we wouldn't of been hearing much about them in the news, would we?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
Ok, Halliburton then. Unless you want to stop paying taxes of course

Maybe. I wouldn't mind not paying so much in taxes. It's pretty rediculious that between 30-50% of all income goes straight to the government (corporate taxes, capital gains tax, sales tax, federal income tax, state income tax, gass tax, sin tax, road tax, etc etc etc... (you get the idea))

But the thing about Halliburton (if your refering to the Dick Cheney, Defense contracts stuff) is that they are one of the few companies that are whiling and capable of doing what they do, and they are good at it. There are other private people/corporations involved, but they are the big dogs. Or would you rather our tax money go to some corporation out of China or Isreal instead? Somebody needs to do it, and the Military is for killing and blowing stuff up, they suck at everything else.

And if it's the Cheney being ex-board member, the thing to remember is EX. And another thing to remember is that even though the president is incharge of the military, and halliburton supplies the military with supplies, it's the Congress that is in charge of the money. They have their hand on the purse strings, if they didn't like were the money is going it just wouldn't go. (thats the check and balances for warfare. The president is the commander in cheif, but a army fights on it's stomach. No money, no weapons, no food, no war. Everybody packs up and goes home.)

So if you don't like were the money is going, it's your congressman you should yell at, not the VP.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
The decision to use Halliburton was made because we needed a quick decision so we could get to work immediately. Halliburton was clearly up to the task and we didn't have time for a formal bidding process. We've paid for that dearly since there was little review or debate on the contract and little oversight now. It doesn't change the fact that that's what needed done.

What honestly burns me up is the "we needed a quick decision" part. It is further evidence of our haste to rush to war without the military or financial support of our allies (if not the whole U.N.) and further evidence of the lack of thought that went into pre and post war planning and exit strategies.


I didn't mention Cheney at all actually.

I have my gut feeling about him and the Halliburton decision but no evidence to allow an actual decision on the matter. It makes for interesting conspiracy theories but not much more. His secret advisors on the nation's energy policy may turn out to be some nasty stuff but for some asinine reason the supreme court decided Americans DO need to know who was on the the panel yet not until after the elections. Hmm.

I've been fairly happy with my Congressmen's decisions so I won't take it up with him. I'll take my true grievances up with Bush in November.


Edit: Geez can you tell I just got back from the politics forum or what hehe. Should've left my soapbox over there.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
The decision to use Halliburton was made because we needed a quick decision so we could get to work immediately. Halliburton was clearly up to the task and we didn't have time for a formal bidding process. We've paid for that dearly since there was little review or debate on the contract and little oversight now. It doesn't change the fact that that's what needed done.

What honestly burns me up is the "we needed a quick decision" part. It is further evidence of our haste to rush to war without the military or financial support of our allies (if not the whole U.N.) and further evidence of the lack of thought that went into pre and post war planning and exit strategies.


I didn't mention Cheney at all actually.

I have my gut feeling about him and the Halliburton decision but no evidence to allow an actual decision on the matter. It makes for interesting conspiracy theories but not much more. His secret advisors on the nation's energy policy may turn out to be some nasty stuff but for some asinine reason the supreme court decided Americans DO need to know who was on the the panel yet not until after the elections. Hmm.

I've been fairly happy with my Congressmen's decisions so I won't take it up with him. I'll take my true grievances up with Bush in November.


Edit: Geez can you tell I just got back from the politics forum or what hehe. Should've left my soapbox over there.

I was just going to mention that you guys should take it to the P&N forum, then realized I can't wish that fate upon the two of you.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
I didn't mention Cheney at all actually.

I know. I was just guessing. (I am in that sort of mood right now)

And as far as the "secret advisors" things go, it's a red herring. A stupid politcal move. I think it's retarded that any time the president wants to talk to someone about something (after all, if you want to find out about energy policy, would it be better to talk to the top people in the industry or buerocratic government officials in some energy board that probably couldn't manage a 7-11, much less the country's energy infrastructure) he has the right to keep his contacts a secret, for the benifit of the individuals he talks to (and their jobs and livelyhoods).

(ya and I try to stay away from political forums, I have a hard time controlling myself enough here as it is.)
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
but I also don't let them tell me what to do with the disc that I already own.

You can do whatever you want with the disc, it's the software on it that has the restrictions that you agreed to.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: drag
I didn't mention Cheney at all actually.

I know. I was just guessing. (I am in that sort of mood right now)

And as far as the "secret advisors" things go, it's a red herring. A stupid politcal move. I think it's retarded that any time the president wants to talk to someone about something (after all, if you want to find out about energy policy, would it be better to talk to the top people in the industry or buerocratic government officials in some energy board that probably couldn't manage a 7-11, much less the country's energy infrastructure) he has the right to keep his contacts a secret, for the benifit of the individuals he talks to (and their jobs and livelyhoods).

(ya and I try to stay away from political forums, I have a hard time controlling myself enough here as it is.)

P&N here is largely useless.
 

JWMiddleton

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2000
5,686
172
106
Originally posted by: SOB
I was wondering... if you install windows XP pro on 2 different computers will microsoft find out and make the cd key not valid anymore?

thanks


Hey Sob,

I installed a fresh copy of XP Home on my step-father's computer recently. I did the activation, but then the HD crashed later in the day. I put in a new drive and reload XP. I tried to reactivate and it said I could not and gave me a number to call. I had to explain what happened and swear that I did not have the software installed on more that the one computer. They gave me a code to type in and things were then fine. It was a pain in the butt!
 

McMadman

Senior member
Mar 25, 2000
938
0
76
I'd have to say that my biggest "fear" about product activation will be when the next "latest and greatest" os comes along. Will microsoft refuse to activate an older install of xp in favor of forcing the user to upgrade to the newest version.

According to the product lifecycle chart the mainstream phase of xp home/pro ends 12/31/2006, with the extended support for pro in 2011 (home not specified.)

Obviously this issue can't be tested/proven until "longhorn" is made final and released to the public.

In regard to the whole EULA thing, that's quite a gray area which spyware falls into as well. Since they will often state in the agreement that something will be installed, and by you continuing to install you agree with this (even if you don't read it.)
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: McMadman
I'd have to say that my biggest "fear" about product activation will be when the next "latest and greatest" os comes along. Will microsoft refuse to activate an older install of xp in favor of forcing the user to upgrade to the newest version.

No, they won't. That's a pretty nasty "fear" of yours. Where did you pick that up from?

XP will simply follow the cycle of extended support only then no support.


 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
You aren't even allowed to install it twice on the same machine to dual boot it (one for testing and thrashing.. one for personal use etc..) if you wanted to..

 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
You aren't even allowed to install it twice on the same machine to dual boot it (one for testing and thrashing.. one for personal use etc..) if you wanted to..

Where did you get that from?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Where did you get that from?

I *think* this one does depend on your license (corp vs retail) as does the use of the OS in virtual machines (some licenses allow you to reuse it in one virtual machine, others do not, I know this changed this year...)

Ring any bells?
Bill
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
He's talking about a dual boot. One machine and only one install can run at a time, EVER.

 

uncleX

Member
Nov 22, 2002
73
0
0
>Hope you had fun writing all that.
Thank you. I did. Have a nice day.

> Here's my lengthy response:

>Yeah, whatever.
So you couldn't find anything to disagree with?

>
>As for:
>
>quote:

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>By reading this message you signify your agreement to pay me $100,000 to read it, and $100,000 per >second whenever you think about what I've said.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>How about: You agree to pay me 50 bucks for whiffing my fart. If I bust @ss next to you I'm not really
>giving you a choice just are you are in the above. There is no legally binding contract that I have
>agreed to. Despite your long windedness it's a stupid illustration that doesn't apply

Actually, the incidental prelude to my message which you replied to is shorter than your refutation. Your refutation is stupid and doesn't apply.


>A EULA is a bit different. You MUST agree to it before you use the software. If you don't then you can't
>use the software. You don't own it. It makes no difference whether you paid ahead of time or not.

>A retailer has already charged you money with the assumption that you will agree. If you don't then the
> retailer sold you nothing and you therefore must pay nothing. You get a refund.

All of what you said is a distinction without a difference. Opening a seal does not mean you agree to anything, and clicking a button does not mean you agree to anything. It is only the author of the EULA that claims it. It is exactly because you can't get at the software without these that makes my demo EULA similar, not dissimilar.

You don't get it because you'd rather not get it.

The point is: A contract is a meeting of minds. With that, there is a contract even without any added accouterments. Without it, there is no contract regardless of all the surrounding folderol.

The legal significance of a contract is that it is legally binding. But, like drag was saying, I don't personally give a crap about about the contract aspect, or the government. I know ways to get around practically anything concerning software protection, and so does anyone who has been around a while on the Internet. I could spell it out, if you like. My concern is what I should do even when no one is watching, no cops are going to beat on the door, and the person/company I am dealing with has no practical recourse. It is matter of personal integrity, not law or enforcement. Over the years, I have revised my thoughts, and reversed my thoughts quite a number of times, and I'm still not settled about it.


This subject has been around a long time. Bill Gates got into it with his computer buddies when the infant Microsoft produced Basic for the Altair, if people remember that. You remember how it was: Hippies urinating on the Amercan flag, their Chaiman Mao Red Books nestled closely to their hearts, side by side with their film can full of marijauna. Power to the people! That was normal. As usual, I was mostly against the norm, although I enjoyed their anti-authority attitude. Bill Gates power-to-the-people thing was low cost software for microcomputers. Gates systematic method succeeded unbelievably, while the lunies predicably failed, and indeed wrought grief that we have never fully recovered from. Anyway... back to today:

I don't steal people's property.

Ideas, software, programs, inventions, jokes are not property, nor should they be.

Copying is not stealing property. That doesn't mean there might not be some ethical considerations, but not because copying is wrong, or permission is lacking

The copying problem takes care of itself, it is just that people are unwilling to accept the balance. If the people involved in producing originals don't get enough payment (in their own judgement), they will quit producing it. If it got bad enough, software production would go into slump. That slump is just another way of saying that the people paying for software don't think it is worth the price. If the people producing software don't think it is sufficiently profitable, they should get out of that business. Once they do that, the matter is settled. If they think their occupation IS sufficiently profitable, the matter is also settled.

What software authors want, though, is MORE money, like we all do. That's not ethics. They hope to achieve this (MORE money) by restricting the supply. That's where the government comes in. Normally the market determines the optimum price. But, what is the market price of something that can be reproduced (possibly unlawfully) at a pitance? In the case of ideas, the matter was settled by our society ages ago. The price is zero. This would seem to be the logical optimum price (and morally correct?) for software -zero that is- except that the amount of new originals might drop off too far (in consumers judgement) if this were to happen, so it doesn't go to zero. In practice, it is a long way from zero. In short, there is a non-zero market price as long as somebody wants the production. If you don't like that price, don't get into the business. For ideas, the market price is zero, but even so the salaries of people in the idea-producing business are much above zero, so much so that anybody that can get into it, does.

In the case of music recordings, it is hard to believe there is shortage of originals, judging by the quantity for sale at Best Buy. In fact, judging just by the quantity in comparison to many things considered valuable, an economist might suspect there is a vast oversupply resulting from a misguided attempt to fix the price above a market price.

Are the owners, officer and employees of MS hurting because of copying? If so, they should get out of the business and find something to do people consider worth paying for. Obviously MS is not getting out. The news recently had a story about MS having so much cash it has to use new methods to unload it that it has never done before. I bring this up, not because I have sometthing agianst MS making fantastic amounts of money (they give good value for the money IMO), but just to show how far from being a problem copying is. The automobile companies would love to trade their problems for MS's. It is no coincidence that the basis of MS's fortune is that replication has practically zero cost. That's how it works when you sell things in immense quantity.

Just imagine people's reaction if the automobile companies produced automobiles at 50 cents a copy, were making money hand over fist, and they complained that they should be making more money. People would be amused.

Just to hammer it home, the point of all this isn't to promote moral relativism, or moral indeterminism; it is to show there is no foundation for the claim that copying is wrong by reason of harm. All the claims about some harm being done are false, as well as the claim that copying violates property.

>Silliness. I can't believe you morons are still ranting about this. By all means don't stop. Watching a
>retarded kid getting all frustrated and letting spittle fly everywhere absolutely cracks me up.
>The harder he tries the funnier it is.

If you can spew ridicule without the mods getting down on you, then so can I.

The imbeciles taking your positiion are incoherent, because they can't think; they can only repeat. Their brains have atrophied from disuse, finally vanishing into a singularty up their rectums. Their frothing drool is drenching their clothes, while their mouths move as if an intelligent sound was about to be made, if that were possible, but only an incoherent grunt emits, reminicent of profanity, while their spastic limbs twitch obscenely and they defecate into their stinking shorts noisily, a fragrent puddle gathering at their pants legs.

I am laughing at this moment.

If you were to deal with something said here substantially, it could reveal the povertry of your thought, which is why you don't attempt it. I am at a loss to detect a thought in this part of your message. You are saying I am a a retarded kid. That's purely an insult, without substance. I do understand why you are doing it. You have nothing to say because you have given it no thought. For instance, try thinking on this: Is it because modern society is drifting in moral indeterminism that makes makes shallow, self-serving, baseless rhetoric, like yours, seem to have moral force?

BTW, if what you say is true about the way you way treat retarded people, the world would better off without this. Of course, I realize it is just a rhetorical device to circumvent the prohibition against personal insult. And it is no wonder you are in a terrible mood having been to the politics forum.

Have a nice day

----------------------------
The captain of the Titanic clearly was a flip-flopper.



 

syconub

Senior member
Aug 7, 2004
520
0
0
Originally posted by: uncleX
>Hope you had fun writing all that.
Thank you. I did. Have a nice day.

> Here's my lengthy response:

>Yeah, whatever.
So you couldn't find anything to disagree with?

>
>As for:
>
>quote:

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>By reading this message you signify your agreement to pay me $100,000 to read it, and $100,000 per >second whenever you think about what I've said.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>How about: You agree to pay me 50 bucks for whiffing my fart. If I bust @ss next to you I'm not really
>giving you a choice just are you are in the above. There is no legally binding contract that I have
>agreed to. Despite your long windedness it's a stupid illustration that doesn't apply

Actually, the incidental prelude to my message which you replied to is shorter than your refutation. Your refutation is stupid and doesn't apply.


>A EULA is a bit different. You MUST agree to it before you use the software. If you don't then you can't
>use the software. You don't own it. It makes no difference whether you paid ahead of time or not.

>A retailer has already charged you money with the assumption that you will agree. If you don't then the
> retailer sold you nothing and you therefore must pay nothing. You get a refund.

All of what you said is a distinction without a difference. Opening a seal does not mean you agree to anything, and clicking a button does not mean you agree to anything. It is only the author of the EULA that claims it. It is exactly because you can't get at the software without these that makes my demo EULA similar, not dissimilar.

You don't get it because you'd rather not get it.

The point is: A contract is a meeting of minds. With that, there is a contract even without any added accouterments. Without it, there is no contract regardless of all the surrounding folderol.

The legal significance of a contract is that it is legally binding. But, like drag was saying, I don't personally give a crap about about the contract aspect, or the government. I know ways to get around practically anything concerning software protection, and so does anyone who has been around a while on the Internet. I could spell it out, if you like. My concern is what I should do even when no one is watching, no cops are going to beat on the door, and the person/company I am dealing with has no practical recourse. It is matter of personal integrity, not law or enforcement. Over the years, I have revised my thoughts, and reversed my thoughts quite a number of times, and I'm still not settled about it.


This subject has been around a long time. Bill Gates got into it with his computer buddies when the infant Microsoft produced Basic for the Altair, if people remember that. You remember how it was: Hippies urinating on the Amercan flag, their Chaiman Mao Red Books nestled closely to their hearts, side by side with their film can full of marijauna. Power to the people! That was normal. As usual, I was mostly against the norm, although I enjoyed their anti-authority attitude. Bill Gates power-to-the-people thing was low cost software for microcomputers. Gates systematic method succeeded unbelievably, while the lunies predicably failed, and indeed wrought grief that we have never fully recovered from. Anyway... back to today:

I don't steal people's property.

Ideas, software, programs, inventions, jokes are not property, nor should they be.

Copying is not stealing property. That doesn't mean there might not be some ethical considerations, but not because copying is wrong, or permission is lacking

The copying problem takes care of itself, it is just that people are unwilling to accept the balance. If the people involved in producing originals don't get enough payment (in their own judgement), they will quit producing it. If it got bad enough, software production would go into slump. That slump is just another way of saying that the people paying for software don't think it is worth the price. If the people producing software don't think it is sufficiently profitable, they should get out of that business. Once they do that, the matter is settled. If they think their occupation IS sufficiently profitable, the matter is also settled.

What software authors want, though, is MORE money, like we all do. That's not ethics. They hope to achieve this (MORE money) by restricting the supply. That's where the government comes in. Normally the market determines the optimum price. But, what is the market price of something that can be reproduced (possibly unlawfully) at a pitance? In the case of ideas, the matter was settled by our society ages ago. The price is zero. This would seem to be the logical optimum price (and morally correct?) for software -zero that is- except that the amount of new originals might drop off too far (in consumers judgement) if this were to happen, so it doesn't go to zero. In practice, it is a long way from zero. In short, there is a non-zero market price as long as somebody wants the production. If you don't like that price, don't get into the business. For ideas, the market price is zero, but even so the salaries of people in the idea-producing business are much above zero, so much so that anybody that can get into it, does.

In the case of music recordings, it is hard to believe there is shortage of originals, judging by the quantity for sale at Best Buy. In fact, judging just by the quantity in comparison to many things considered valuable, an economist might suspect there is a vast oversupply resulting from a misguided attempt to fix the price above a market price.

Are the owners, officer and employees of MS hurting because of copying? If so, they should get out of the business and find something to do people consider worth paying for. Obviously MS is not getting out. The news recently had a story about MS having so much cash it has to use new methods to unload it that it has never done before. I bring this up, not because I have sometthing agianst MS making fantastic amounts of money (they give good value for the money IMO), but just to show how far from being a problem copying is. The automobile companies would love to trade their problems for MS's. It is no coincidence that the basis of MS's fortune is that replication has practically zero cost. That's how it works when you sell things in immense quantity.

Just imagine people's reaction if the automobile companies produced automobiles at 50 cents a copy, were making money hand over fist, and they complained that they should be making more money. People would be amused.

Just to hammer it home, the point of all this isn't to promote moral relativism, or moral indeterminism; it is to show there is no foundation for the claim that copying is wrong by reason of harm. All the claims about some harm being done are false, as well as the claim that copying violates property.

>Silliness. I can't believe you morons are still ranting about this. By all means don't stop. Watching a
>retarded kid getting all frustrated and letting spittle fly everywhere absolutely cracks me up.
>The harder he tries the funnier it is.

If you can spew ridicule without the mods getting down on you, then so can I.

The imbeciles taking your positiion are incoherent, because they can't think; they can only repeat. Their brains have atrophied from disuse, finally vanishing into a singularty up their rectums. Their frothing drool is drenching their clothes, while their mouths move as if an intelligent sound was about to be made, if that were possible, but only an incoherent grunt emits, reminicent of profanity, while their spastic limbs twitch obscenely and they defecate into their stinking shorts noisily, a fragrent puddle gathering at their pants legs.

I am laughing at this moment.

If you were to deal with something said here substantially, it could reveal the povertry of your thought, which is why you don't attempt it. I am at a loss to detect a thought in this part of your message. You are saying I am a a retarded kid. That's purely an insult, without substance. I do understand why you are doing it. You have nothing to say because you have given it no thought. For instance, try thinking on this: Is it because modern society is drifting in moral indeterminism that makes makes shallow, self-serving, baseless rhetoric, like yours, seem to have moral force?

BTW, if what you say is true about the way you way treat retarded people, the world would better off without this. Of course, I realize it is just a rhetorical device to circumvent the prohibition against personal insult. And it is no wonder you are in a terrible mood having been to the politics forum.

Have a nice day

----------------------------
The captain of the Titanic clearly was a flip-flopper.

Should i use Pay-pal or just give you my credit card number now?
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: uncleX

[SNIP]

Using the software, whether you use it legally or illegaly (THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS!) is still supporting it. The only way to get some change is to not support it. Get over yoruself.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: uncleX
>Hope you had fun writing all that.
Thank you. I did. Have a nice day.

> Here's my lengthy response:

>Yeah, whatever.
So you couldn't find anything to disagree with?

>
>As for:
>
>quote:

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>By reading this message you signify your agreement to pay me $100,000 to read it, and $100,000 per >second whenever you think about what I've said.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>How about: You agree to pay me 50 bucks for whiffing my fart. If I bust @ss next to you I'm not really
>giving you a choice just are you are in the above. There is no legally binding contract that I have
>agreed to. Despite your long windedness it's a stupid illustration that doesn't apply

Actually, the incidental prelude to my message which you replied to is shorter than your refutation. Your refutation is stupid and doesn't apply.


>A EULA is a bit different. You MUST agree to it before you use the software. If you don't then you can't
>use the software. You don't own it. It makes no difference whether you paid ahead of time or not.

>A retailer has already charged you money with the assumption that you will agree. If you don't then the
> retailer sold you nothing and you therefore must pay nothing. You get a refund.

All of what you said is a distinction without a difference. Opening a seal does not mean you agree to anything, and clicking a button does not mean you agree to anything. It is only the author of the EULA that claims it. It is exactly because you can't get at the software without these that makes my demo EULA similar, not dissimilar.

You don't get it because you'd rather not get it.

The point is: A contract is a meeting of minds. With that, there is a contract even without any added accouterments. Without it, there is no contract regardless of all the surrounding folderol.

The legal significance of a contract is that it is legally binding. But, like drag was saying, I don't personally give a crap about about the contract aspect, or the government. I know ways to get around practically anything concerning software protection, and so does anyone who has been around a while on the Internet. I could spell it out, if you like. My concern is what I should do even when no one is watching, no cops are going to beat on the door, and the person/company I am dealing with has no practical recourse. It is matter of personal integrity, not law or enforcement. Over the years, I have revised my thoughts, and reversed my thoughts quite a number of times, and I'm still not settled about it.

You cannot use something that is copyrighted without the express consent of the owner of the copyright. It's a simple fact.

This subject has been around a long time. Bill Gates got into it with his computer buddies when the infant Microsoft produced Basic for the Altair, if people remember that. You remember how it was: Hippies urinating on the Amercan flag, their Chaiman Mao Red Books nestled closely to their hearts, side by side with their film can full of marijauna. Power to the people! That was normal. As usual, I was mostly against the norm, although I enjoyed their anti-authority attitude. Bill Gates power-to-the-people thing was low cost software for microcomputers. Gates systematic method succeeded unbelievably, while the lunies predicably failed, and indeed wrought grief that we have never fully recovered from. Anyway... back to today:

I don't steal people's property.

Ideas, software, programs, inventions, jokes are not property, nor should they be.

The ideas are not what are copyrighted. What are copyrighted are the expressions of the ideas. The rest of it is patented, and I think software patents are bullshit[/b].

Copying is not stealing property. That doesn't mean there might not be some ethical considerations, but not because copying is wrong, or permission is lacking

No one has said (or atleast they should not say) it is stealing. It's copyright infringement.

The copying problem takes care of itself, it is just that people are unwilling to accept the balance. If the people involved in producing originals don't get enough payment (in their own judgement), they will quit producing it. If it got bad enough, software production would go into slump. That slump is just another way of saying that the people paying for software don't think it is worth the price. If the people producing software don't think it is sufficiently profitable, they should get out of that business. Once they do that, the matter is settled. If they think their occupation IS sufficiently profitable, the matter is also settled.

What software authors want, though, is MORE money, like we all do. That's not ethics. They hope to achieve this (MORE money) by restricting the supply. That's where the government comes in. Normally the market determines the optimum price. But, what is the market price of something that can be reproduced (possibly unlawfully) at a pitance? In the case of ideas, the matter was settled by our society ages ago. The price is zero. This would seem to be the logical optimum price (and morally correct?) for software -zero that is- except that the amount of new originals might drop off too far (in consumers judgement) if this were to happen, so it doesn't go to zero. In practice, it is a long way from zero. In short, there is a non-zero market price as long as somebody wants the production. If you don't like that price, don't get into the business. For ideas, the market price is zero, but even so the salaries of people in the idea-producing business are much above zero, so much so that anybody that can get into it, does.

You support crappy software by pirating it. What horrid logic.

In the case of music recordings, it is hard to believe there is shortage of originals, judging by the quantity for sale at Best Buy. In fact, judging just by the quantity in comparison to many things considered valuable, an economist might suspect there is a vast oversupply resulting from a misguided attempt to fix the price above a market price.

The RIAA has gotten in trouble for price fixing. I have personally stopped purchasing cds covered by the RIAA.

Are the owners, officer and employees of MS hurting because of copying? If so, they should get out of the business and find something to do people consider worth paying for. Obviously MS is not getting out. The news recently had a story about MS having so much cash it has to use new methods to unload it that it has never done before. I bring this up, not because I have sometthing agianst MS making fantastic amounts of money (they give good value for the money IMO), but just to show how far from being a problem copying is. The automobile companies would love to trade their problems for MS's. It is no coincidence that the basis of MS's fortune is that replication has practically zero cost. That's how it works when you sell things in immense quantity.

Welcome to capitalism.

Just imagine people's reaction if the automobile companies produced automobiles at 50 cents a copy, were making money hand over fist, and they complained that they should be making more money. People would be amused.

Just to hammer it home, the point of all this isn't to promote moral relativism, or moral indeterminism; it is to show there is no foundation for the claim that copying is wrong by reason of harm. All the claims about some harm being done are false, as well as the claim that copying violates property.

You don't pay much attention do you?

>Silliness. I can't believe you morons are still ranting about this. By all means don't stop. Watching a
>retarded kid getting all frustrated and letting spittle fly everywhere absolutely cracks me up.
>The harder he tries the funnier it is.

If you can spew ridicule without the mods getting down on you, then so can I.

Please do.

The imbeciles taking your positiion are incoherent, because they can't think; they can only repeat. Their brains have atrophied from disuse, finally vanishing into a singularty up their rectums. Their frothing drool is drenching their clothes, while their mouths move as if an intelligent sound was about to be made, if that were possible, but only an incoherent grunt emits, reminicent of profanity, while their spastic limbs twitch obscenely and they defecate into their stinking shorts noisily, a fragrent puddle gathering at their pants legs.

I am laughing at this moment.

Me too. Pseudo-intellectual, clueless, blathering bullshit[/b] always makes me laugh. Between it and Jerry Springer, I have lost all faith in humanity.

If you were to deal with something said here substantially, it could reveal the povertry of your thought, which is why you don't attempt it. I am at a loss to detect a thought in this part of your message. You are saying I am a a retarded kid. That's purely an insult, without substance. I do understand why you are doing it. You have nothing to say because you have given it no thought. For instance, try thinking on this: Is it because modern society is drifting in moral indeterminism that makes makes shallow, self-serving, baseless rhetoric, like yours, seem to have moral force?

Wank wank wank. Mental masturbation doesn't do a whole lot here.

BTW, if what you say is true about the way you way treat retarded people, the world would better off without this. Of course, I realize it is just a rhetorical device to circumvent the prohibition against personal insult. And it is no wonder you are in a terrible mood having been to the politics forum.

Have a nice day

----------------------------
The captain of the Titanic clearly was a flip-flopper.

From the batcave,
n0cmonkey
 

uncleX

Member
Nov 22, 2002
73
0
0
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: uncleX

[SNIP]

Using the software, whether you use it legally or illegaly (THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS!) is still supporting it. The only way to get some change is to not support it. Get over yoruself.

Hi, n0monkey,

Sorry if I POed people indirectly. It's my natural personality. I am naturally contrary. I can't help it. I try to be abstract. Somebody takes it personal and attacks. Then I get POed.

I not sure what you mean: Still supporting by using it?

I am not against paying for software or MS. I have paid MS for their software. I don't have anything special against MS, and the price of XP upgrade or OEM is not bad. (IAC you can't buy a ready-built without it, because MS charges by the number of computers, not by the number of computers XP is installed on. Not that I have any ready-built computers.) MS has done a lot of good. I just don't buy into the rhetoric. I don't think I would be doing anything wrong to use an unpaid or unpermitted copy. People need to be circumspect about it, obviously, if they want to do it. I am not the kind of person who thinks there is just one right way, and everyone must conform. The day politicians succeed in their vision of conformity, is the day something good about America died. If people don't want to pay for software, they shouldn't have to, and the government should not attempt to enforce payment. If authoritarians can't bring themselves to do that, don't go beyond a possible couple of years or copyright, or somewhat longer for legitimate literary works, just to subsidize original and new works.

I not sure what you mean by "get over yourself." However, I do think the whole concept of linux, GPL, etc. is better. Drag has persuaded me on a couple of points concerning quality. And if MS would "wither on the vine," due to a better alternative, I think it would be a fine, beneficial thing.

I have dual versions of linux on two of my computers, Mandrake and Red Hat. Every time I see something remarkable that can be done with linux, which you might not expect, like that Anantech article on personal video recording, I get enthused to see if I can do it too. Some I have accomplished, others not. I have not attempted the PVR yet. Generally speaking, the expectations placed on a linux user by a GPL software author far exceed that of an XP user. While that is the case, linux users will remain pioneers, and linux will be insignicant in numbers in the home computer market. The peculiar thing is that so many of these things are easy to do IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. I have spent a week on a couple of things barking up the wrong tree, which only took a couple of minutes to do once I figured it out. Sure I RTFM, and the man pages, and looked at the forums. That is what put me on the wrong tree in one case. I'm sure the answer was somewhere, but as it is, I deduced it by making endless mistakes. Is this an inherent property of linux? I don't think so. Linux has capable scripting languages that would make anything linux can do as simple as anything in XP, I would think. I'm not saying XP is not exasperating and impossible at times, it just isn't nearly at the level of linux as often.

Let's take linux and WINE, for instance. At first, nothing worked. Games seemed to start, but all that appeared was an error window with errors I had never seen with Windows. Windows error messages are seldom informative or correct, and they were no help at all, as usual. Then the game would terminate with a haze of errors evidently from WINE. It turned out I had bad luck. The WINE version for my distro had an error in it, and a corrected version appeared a week later, after I had spent a week trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, or if WINE just didn't work with these (undemanding, old) games. So it was back to the beginning of trial and error. I had learned a lot about linux and WINE in that week, but none of trial error results were reliable. Things still didn't work, but I wasn't getting weird Windows errors. Since the instructions said you could enter the command line to start the game as either a linux style or Windows style, I had thought it better to stick with linux, although I had tried both. When I tried Windows style (again), one game went all the way through to the actual game. It just skipped the intro video, which is fine with me. Only, it had a frame rate of about 1/2 per second and pieces of the people were missing. In hindsight my mistake was stupid, but I figured it out after a couple of hours. I thought ticking one WINE selection would make it easier on WINE to generate the 3D. No; it crippled it. Everything looked excellent, with a perfectly fine frame rate on the full capablitiy selection. The sound had lots of anomalies, but there was nothing at all you could do about it. One game would run but only in a Window, not full screen. Two other games would not run at all. They would start and terminate, not ever getting to the actual game.

It is not that WINE didn't run some games that bothers me. WINE is an astounding add-on. WINE being as capable as it is is amazing to me. When you see it work, you know how close to being complete it is. It is that it took so much time and effort from me to get to what could have been immediate and straightforward. True, I had bad luck, but it did take me a couple of days more after that to home in on what I needed to do, which was simple IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO, and I did learn a few things about what the errors meant in the week before that.

As I said, I also have Windows programs that were exasperating to figure out what should have been straightforward, and never worked as they apparently should. They never fixed the screwups in sucessive upgrades, which cost me, until I finally had it with them. Linux takes exasperation to a new level, but unaccountably, they do seem to progressively fix mistakes. Commercial operations could learn something on the latter point. So I have grown to like linux, with KDE. But in the end, there are still too many defects and incapabilities I can't find a way around for me to abandon XP. I can probably narrow that some, but not enough. We shall see.


 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: uncleX
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: uncleX

[SNIP]

Using the software, whether you use it legally or illegaly (THERE ARE NO CONTRACTS!) is still supporting it. The only way to get some change is to not support it. Get over yoruself.

Hi, n0monkey,

Sorry if I POed people indirectly. It's my natural personality. I am naturally contrary. I can't help it. I try to be abstract. Somebody takes it personal and attacks. Then I get POed.

I not sure what you mean: Still supporting by using it?

I am not against paying for software or MS. I have paid MS for their software. I don't have anything special against MS, and the price of XP upgrade or OEM is not bad. (IAC you can't buy a ready-built without it, because MS charges by the number of computers, not by the number of computers XP is installed on. Not that I have any ready-built computers.) MS has done a lot of good. I just don't buy into the rhetoric. I don't think I would be doing anything wrong to use an unpaid or unpermitted copy. People need to be circumspect about it, obviously, if they want to do it. I am not the kind of person who thinks there is just one right way, and everyone must conform. The day politicians succeed in their vision of conformity, is the day something good about America died. If people don't want to pay for software, they shouldn't have to, and the government should not attempt to enforce payment. If authoritarians can't bring themselves to do that, don't go beyond a possible couple of years or copyright, or somewhat longer for legitimate literary works, just to subsidize original and new works.

I believe in limits to the length of copyrights, but I also think people should conform to the requirements of the copyright holder. I don't think corporations should be viewed the same as people, and they should not be able to own a copyright (unless the limit was shorter for corporations).

Like I've said before, I own several copyrights (we all do really), and I like the fact that people should adhere to the rules I have for the use of my works. Of course, I'm fairly liberal with the rights I give others for many things.

I not sure what you mean by "get over yourself." However, I do think the whole concept of linux, GPL, etc. is better. Drag has persuaded me on a couple of points concerning quality. And if MS would "wither on the vine," due to a better alternative, I think it would be a fine, beneficial thing.

I dispise the GPL. It's too limitting. But it's better than many alternatives.

[SNIP STUFF ABOUT LINUX]

That's one of the reasons I do my best to write decent documentation for freenix systems.

As I said, I also have Windows programs that were exasperating to figure out what should have been straightforward, and never worked as they apparently should. They never fixed the screwups in sucessive upgrades, which cost me, until I finally had it with them. Linux takes exasperation to a new level, but unaccountably, they do seem to progressively fix mistakes. Commercial operations could learn something on the latter point. So I have grown to like linux, with KDE. But in the end, there are still too many defects and incapabilities I can't find a way around for me to abandon XP. I can probably narrow that some, but not enough. We shall see.

The problem you probably have with Linux is that it is so different from what you are used to. It takes a while to learn a new language, or grasp a new philosophy. You either give up, or you get used to it. One day it all might just click and you'll have that moment of clear minded "oh yeah."
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: uncleX
>Hope you had fun writing all that.
Thank you. I did. Have a nice day.

> Here's my lengthy response:

>Yeah, whatever.
So you couldn't find anything to disagree with?

>
>As for:
>
>quote:

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>By reading this message you signify your agreement to pay me $100,000 to read it, and $100,000 per >second whenever you think about what I've said.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>How about: You agree to pay me 50 bucks for whiffing my fart. If I bust @ss next to you I'm not really
>giving you a choice just are you are in the above. There is no legally binding contract that I have
>agreed to. Despite your long windedness it's a stupid illustration that doesn't apply

Actually, the incidental prelude to my message which you replied to is shorter than your refutation. Your refutation is stupid and doesn't apply.


>A EULA is a bit different. You MUST agree to it before you use the software. If you don't then you can't
>use the software. You don't own it. It makes no difference whether you paid ahead of time or not.

>A retailer has already charged you money with the assumption that you will agree. If you don't then the
> retailer sold you nothing and you therefore must pay nothing. You get a refund.

All of what you said is a distinction without a difference. Opening a seal does not mean you agree to anything, and clicking a button does not mean you agree to anything. It is only the author of the EULA that claims it. It is exactly because you can't get at the software without these that makes my demo EULA similar, not dissimilar.

You don't get it because you'd rather not get it.

The point is: A contract is a meeting of minds. With that, there is a contract even without any added accouterments. Without it, there is no contract regardless of all the surrounding folderol.

The legal significance of a contract is that it is legally binding. But, like drag was saying, I don't personally give a crap about about the contract aspect, or the government. I know ways to get around practically anything concerning software protection, and so does anyone who has been around a while on the Internet. I could spell it out, if you like. My concern is what I should do even when no one is watching, no cops are going to beat on the door, and the person/company I am dealing with has no practical recourse. It is matter of personal integrity, not law or enforcement. Over the years, I have revised my thoughts, and reversed my thoughts quite a number of times, and I'm still not settled about it.


This subject has been around a long time. Bill Gates got into it with his computer buddies when the infant Microsoft produced Basic for the Altair, if people remember that. You remember how it was: Hippies urinating on the Amercan flag, their Chaiman Mao Red Books nestled closely to their hearts, side by side with their film can full of marijauna. Power to the people! That was normal. As usual, I was mostly against the norm, although I enjoyed their anti-authority attitude. Bill Gates power-to-the-people thing was low cost software for microcomputers. Gates systematic method succeeded unbelievably, while the lunies predicably failed, and indeed wrought grief that we have never fully recovered from. Anyway... back to today:

I don't steal people's property.

Ideas, software, programs, inventions, jokes are not property, nor should they be.

Copying is not stealing property. That doesn't mean there might not be some ethical considerations, but not because copying is wrong, or permission is lacking

The copying problem takes care of itself, it is just that people are unwilling to accept the balance. If the people involved in producing originals don't get enough payment (in their own judgement), they will quit producing it. If it got bad enough, software production would go into slump. That slump is just another way of saying that the people paying for software don't think it is worth the price. If the people producing software don't think it is sufficiently profitable, they should get out of that business. Once they do that, the matter is settled. If they think their occupation IS sufficiently profitable, the matter is also settled.

What software authors want, though, is MORE money, like we all do. That's not ethics. They hope to achieve this (MORE money) by restricting the supply. That's where the government comes in. Normally the market determines the optimum price. But, what is the market price of something that can be reproduced (possibly unlawfully) at a pitance? In the case of ideas, the matter was settled by our society ages ago. The price is zero. This would seem to be the logical optimum price (and morally correct?) for software -zero that is- except that the amount of new originals might drop off too far (in consumers judgement) if this were to happen, so it doesn't go to zero. In practice, it is a long way from zero. In short, there is a non-zero market price as long as somebody wants the production. If you don't like that price, don't get into the business. For ideas, the market price is zero, but even so the salaries of people in the idea-producing business are much above zero, so much so that anybody that can get into it, does.

In the case of music recordings, it is hard to believe there is shortage of originals, judging by the quantity for sale at Best Buy. In fact, judging just by the quantity in comparison to many things considered valuable, an economist might suspect there is a vast oversupply resulting from a misguided attempt to fix the price above a market price.

Are the owners, officer and employees of MS hurting because of copying? If so, they should get out of the business and find something to do people consider worth paying for. Obviously MS is not getting out. The news recently had a story about MS having so much cash it has to use new methods to unload it that it has never done before. I bring this up, not because I have sometthing agianst MS making fantastic amounts of money (they give good value for the money IMO), but just to show how far from being a problem copying is. The automobile companies would love to trade their problems for MS's. It is no coincidence that the basis of MS's fortune is that replication has practically zero cost. That's how it works when you sell things in immense quantity.

Just imagine people's reaction if the automobile companies produced automobiles at 50 cents a copy, were making money hand over fist, and they complained that they should be making more money. People would be amused.

Just to hammer it home, the point of all this isn't to promote moral relativism, or moral indeterminism; it is to show there is no foundation for the claim that copying is wrong by reason of harm. All the claims about some harm being done are false, as well as the claim that copying violates property.

>Silliness. I can't believe you morons are still ranting about this. By all means don't stop. Watching a
>retarded kid getting all frustrated and letting spittle fly everywhere absolutely cracks me up.
>The harder he tries the funnier it is.

If you can spew ridicule without the mods getting down on you, then so can I.

The imbeciles taking your positiion are incoherent, because they can't think; they can only repeat. Their brains have atrophied from disuse, finally vanishing into a singularty up their rectums. Their frothing drool is drenching their clothes, while their mouths move as if an intelligent sound was about to be made, if that were possible, but only an incoherent grunt emits, reminicent of profanity, while their spastic limbs twitch obscenely and they defecate into their stinking shorts noisily, a fragrent puddle gathering at their pants legs.

I am laughing at this moment.

If you were to deal with something said here substantially, it could reveal the povertry of your thought, which is why you don't attempt it. I am at a loss to detect a thought in this part of your message. You are saying I am a a retarded kid. That's purely an insult, without substance. I do understand why you are doing it. You have nothing to say because you have given it no thought. For instance, try thinking on this: Is it because modern society is drifting in moral indeterminism that makes makes shallow, self-serving, baseless rhetoric, like yours, seem to have moral force?

BTW, if what you say is true about the way you way treat retarded people, the world would better off without this. Of course, I realize it is just a rhetorical device to circumvent the prohibition against personal insult. And it is no wonder you are in a terrible mood having been to the politics forum.

Have a nice day

----------------------------
The captain of the Titanic clearly was a flip-flopper.


Hey, just FYI. I didn't even bother reading you this time. Hope you had fun writing all that.


Oh, (almost forgot hehe) and here's my response:

Whatever.



 

jpthomas

Senior member
Jul 16, 2004
298
0
0
It's pretty clear that not many in this thread actually know anything about the law. To determine if a EULA does form a valid contract, you need to look at the LAW. It doesn't matter if you "don't like EULA's" or "didn't sign anything" or "didn't read the license agreement."

By the way, EULA's do not hold up in court. When I buy software, it's mine. I did not sign a contract *before purchase* that defines how I'm allowed to use it.

Wrong!

Do a quick search on Lexis and you can pull up tons of cases dealing with this exact issue. Like this case, decided in 2002. And I quote:

Moore v. Microsoft Corp., 293 A.D.2d 587 (N.Y. App. Div., 2002) <-- this is the Supreme Court of New York, Appellate division.

"We agree with the Supreme Court that the End-User License Agreement (hereinafter the EULA) contained in the defendant's software program is a validly binding contract between the parties which bars the plaintiff's claims (see Brower v Gateway 2000, 246 AD2d 246). The terms of the EULA were prominently displayed on the program user's computer screen before the software could be installed. Moreover, the program's [***2] user was required to indicate assent to the EULA by clicking on the "I agree" icon before proceeding with the download of the software. Thus, the defendant offered a contract that the plaintiff accepted by using the software after having an opportunity to read the license at leisure. As a result, the plaintiff's claims are barred by the clear disclaimers, waivers of liability, and limitations of remedies contained in the EULA."

How bout another case, just for fun:

Phoenix Renovation Corp. v. Gulf Coast Software, Inc., 2000 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 20026 (D. Va., 2000)

"The court finds that Phoenix's acceptance of the software installations, without complaint or rejection, constitutes acquiescence in the terms of the license agreements. Since these are the only agreements to which VMS is a party, Phoenix is bound by the arbitration provisions."

By reading this message you signify your agreement to pay me $100,000 to read it, and $100,000 per second whenever you think about what I've said.

This is definately NOT a contract!! This would fail due to unconsionability. A contract is procedurally unconscionable if it involves an ?unfair surprise,? where the party who drafts the contract includes a term having reason to know that the term does not accord with the other party?s fair expectations. Since nobody reading through an AT post would expect to have to pay you $100k for reading your post, no valid contract is formed.

Silliness. I can't believe you morons are still ranting about this. By all means don't stop. Watching a retarded kid getting all frustrated and letting spittle fly everywhere absolutely cracks me up. The harder he tries the funnier it is.

:thumbsup:
 
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