Intel Broadwell Thread

Page 43 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Enigmoid

Platinum Member
Sep 27, 2012
2,907
31
91
You still do not get it. This fact comes from laws of (quantum) physics.
Nothing you linked in this thread points to the evidence, that Intel has somehow defeated physics. In fact, aside from the propaganda slides, everything points to the evidence, that leakage has increased. In particular decreasing channel length while increasing height of fins to sustain Ion and decreasing Vt is a clear indicator of increased leakage.

Leakage will increase at smaller geometries. However, changing the physical design of the transistor can mitigate this or possibly even temporarily move leakage backwards for a smaller geometry.

The changes you mentioned are done to combat increased leakage. However, changes applied appropriately can reduce leakage; there is not enough data to say anything about the total absolute leakage as applied in the transistor (other that saying the leakage will be more dominant at lower geometries).

Picture it this way. Imagine a process on X nm without any of the recent technologies that reduce leakage. Now imagine that same X nm process with major overhauls to reduce leakage. Say the chip 'leaks' 2-3x less (this is completely made up and is a dummy number to try and prove a point). Now imagine a smaller node with those advanced leakage combatant technologies. Despite being a smaller node with more (theoretical) leakage, the new transistor design may result in a transistor with less overall leakage than at the larger geometry non-refined process.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
You still do not get it. This fact comes from laws of (quantum) physics.

I don't know if you have noticed, but Intel has "defeated" the (your) laws of physics since 90nm's strained silicon. If you design a smaller transistor properly, with new innovations, it will actually be superior in all metrics than the preceding one.

Certainly if the transistor in question is designed by Intel. Intel has a gigantic lead in terms of transistor performance and their demands for a new transistor are very high. For example, Intel could have gone with planar at 22nm, but decided not to because it didn't meet their requirements. Similarly, Intel has now developed a new, 2nd generation FinFET transistor with taller, rectangular fins, which are superior. 14nm also has an optimized flavor for mobile, where, as people have argued, idle power consumption is important.

Everything you have to offer is the laws of physics. You don't have to go to 14nm to know that they exist: if it weren't an issue, transistor would now be some order of magnitude more potent than they actually are. You wouldn't want to have a transistor from 1990 with 14nm's feature sizes.




Nothing you linked in this thread points to the evidence, that Intel has somehow defeated physics.
As I already said, Intel has been "defeating" the laws of physics for more than a decade. You are ignoring information given by Intel (about leakage and their 2nd gen transistor).
 
Last edited:

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Due to the fact it is OLED this would be nice but Windows 10 better do resolution correctly or you are in a world of hurt.

Yeaa. There is some chain effects here for the new tech to be valuable.
Win10 needs to be solid and fix the scaling.Part of a new product is also a nice new os.
For a laptop a boost in display tech is vital. Like eg going from lower res 768 tn 14" to 900p ips 13.3. And in the future oled at 4k.
The cpu/gpu is of minor importance and it seems it gets harder and harder here to get better perf and battery life.
So in that sense it gets more difficult to sell the expensive ultrabooks. But hey just charge some more for the rest. Lol.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
Core M is the only 14nm chip released this year. Originally the better broadwell skus and even cherrytrail atom was supposed to come out this year but they got delayed. Now such skus are going to be start released at CES and certain skus may not become commonly available till like q2 (aka april+ time)

Supposedly this is the fabs fault, but who knows.

Eventually anandtech will probably do a core m piece with hands on numbers. They already did some of the theory of the architecture at IDF which was september 2014 timeframe.

But isn't Skylake coming out next year too? So will skylake laptops be available (with real skus beyond just 1 variant) for christmas? And isn't skylake desktop coming next year too?

The way it sounds it's like we're getting 2 chips in 2015. Broadwell (The rest of the chips) and some Skylake.
 

rushmore

Member
Jul 24, 2014
25
0
0
I have a Dell V11 5130 that has the Z3770. Two nice points for the device is the performance is sustained and does not throttle down when gaming, plus battery life is great (especially with keyboard dock).

I was hoping the new Dell 7140 with M5Y10 would be even better relative performance and similar battery life, but looking like battery life will be less and performance might actually be less than the Z3770 due to throttling.

Hoping I am wrong and relative performance will be better and sustained with a few hours steady use. Just would like more game to work on the 5130 and also higher resource emulators like Dolphin. Perhaps I am asking too much for the footprint and expecting great battery life as well. The 5130 is still IMO a great device.

Just would like the extra ram, double the storage and the better GPU with the 7140.
 

liahos1

Senior member
Aug 28, 2013
573
45
91
I have a Dell V11 5130 that has the Z3770. Two nice points for the device is the performance is sustained and does not throttle down when gaming, plus battery life is great (especially with keyboard dock).

I was hoping the new Dell 7140 with M5Y10 would be even better relative performance and similar battery life, but looking like battery life will be less and performance might actually be less than the Z3770 due to throttling.

Hoping I am wrong and relative performance will be better and sustained with a few hours steady use. Just would like more game to work on the 5130 and also higher resource emulators like Dolphin. Perhaps I am asking too much for the footprint and expecting great battery life as well. The 5130 is still IMO a great device.

Just would like the extra ram, double the storage and the better GPU with the 7140.

performance less than the z3770? that seems highly unlikely haha
 

rushmore

Member
Jul 24, 2014
25
0
0
That is what I would like to find out Is the sustained performance significantly better when playing games (as example) than the Z3770. The Z3770 does not throttle much at all down from peak, but apparently the M5Y10 does. Question is when it does throttle, is the performance still better than the 3770 running at "peak"?

Hoping the answer is yes, but I assume nothing and have yet to see a performance trend or comparison using concurrent benchmark tests. Just one test before power and thermals are a factor is pointless on its own IMO.

Need multiple concurrent tests to show the actual performance for heavy extended tasks like games or running complex spreadsheets (solver), decoding, etc.
 

Roland00Address

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2008
2,196
260
126
But isn't Skylake coming out next year too? So will skylake laptops be available (with real skus beyond just 1 variant) for christmas? And isn't skylake desktop coming next year too?

The way it sounds it's like we're getting 2 chips in 2015. Broadwell (The rest of the chips) and some Skylake.

Yes if intel keeps its schedule Skylake will be out next year. I do not want to make predictions on what the certainty of this happening, and what type of skus (laptop quad core, ultrabook, core m, desktop etc). But if Intel does not delay we will get Skylake next year based off old roadmaps.

Remember Skylake and Broadwell are made on the same process so no big retooling has to be done. You just need to have the cpu design team be ready with a finished product and enough capacity to satisfy demand since Skylake will have a bigger die size than Broadwell for most skus and thus you want to make sure you can satisfy demand and sell enough chips.
 

rushmore

Member
Jul 24, 2014
25
0
0
New Geekbench 3 results are up for the 5y10. This one is for the Hewlett-Packard HP ENVY x2.

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/compare/1113076?baseline=1185974

The new results, shown on the right, show a pretty substantial multicore performance jump from older results in October.

5y10:

Single Core - 2027
Multi Core - 4149

Big improvements in memory performance and multicore performance throughout. In comparison to the A8x, the difference mainly seems to be SHA (A8x) vs AES (5y10). Even with one less core, the 5y10 is really close the A8x.

More importantly, I think it highlights what a poor job Lenovo did with the Yoga 3 pro. HP's results with the 5y10 (1.0ghz) are actually better than the vast majority of the results for the Yoga 3 pro's 5y70 (1.3ghz).

Are those over concurrent tests or just a peak test? Need tests over a period of sustained time to show the actual performance over sustained longer heavy tasks like games, decoding, etc.

Also, the the Y3 has a much higher res display, so if the voltage and thermals are a balance act, both the CPU and GPU will be weighted a lot more down due to the GPU keeping up with the the display res.
 

rushmore

Member
Jul 24, 2014
25
0
0
I ordered a 7140 from Dell with the 5Y10 so will find out myself and compare to the 5130 with Z3770. They use the same keyboard dock so I am covered there.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,931
13,427
136
This argument does not fly very far. The device was measured 42 degree at the hot spot. How hot, according to your opinion, should have Lenovo allowed the device to be?
Besides, independent how bad the fan is, it is supposed to drag the heat away from the hot spot. So it is safe to assume that it would have been even hotter than 42 degree without fan. By how much is, obviously, unknown.

Thing is, they could have cramped a lot bigger fan in there(or two), and kept the current profile when running on battery. Running off the wall however, suck up the juice and spin the wheels and keep it from throttling. I think they could have caught alot less flak if it at least didnt throttle when plugged in.
 

kimmel

Senior member
Mar 28, 2013
248
0
41
Thing is, they could have cramped a lot bigger fan in there(or two), and kept the current profile when running on battery. Running off the wall however, suck up the juice and spin the wheels and keep it from throttling. I think they could have caught alot less flak if it at least didnt throttle when plugged in.

Can we stop referring to the one review that ran furmark and prime simultaneously? Seriously we get it. Running power virus type applications on wafer thin devices makes them throttle. We get it....
 

pw257008

Senior member
Jan 11, 2014
288
0
0
Can we stop referring to the one review that ran furmark and prime simultaneously? Seriously we get it. Running power virus type applications on wafer thin devices makes them throttle. We get it....

running CB back to back caused the Y3P to throttle
 

SAAA

Senior member
May 14, 2014
541
126
116
running CB back to back caused the Y3P to throttle

Well that seems OK: for 3.5W of TDP the new core-M parts have 600MHz base clock vs almost twice for 4.5W.
3.5W is the setting that Lenovo picked so no wonder it throttles a lot: a fan doesn't reduce CPU power consumption, rather it increases the device load reducing battery life...

Overall it seems there's still a limit in the minimum scaling of voltage/frequency for 14nm otherwise Broadwell would be already in phones (well almost there, it still misses some parts in the SoC vs Moorefield, etc.)
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Hmm yeaa, what do you make of it?

It will be non-overlapping magisteria; Broadwell will go into laptops and the Iris Pro SKU, Skylake will serve the desktop market. All products will launch in April-September. Cannonlake and 10nm will follow in early 2017.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Mid-Late Mid 2015 to Early 2017 seems like a long time to go between products.

Intel isn't the only company that's faced with slower release cycles. GPUs, anyone? For mobile, there's still Skylake to come in 2016, I presume. Broadwell-E, Skylake-E and Skylake-K (GT4e) also won't be released in 2015. I think the chances are pretty low that Intel will do some magic trick with regards to 10nm yields, health and availability. Intel typically also releases more SKUs after the initial launch of a new platform generation.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
After watching IM14, I started watching the IM13 manufacturing presentation. Around the 3 minute mark, he gives a very important explanation for why 14nm has been delayed so much.

http://intelstudios.edgesuite.net/im/2013/archive/bh/archive.html

The short answer is that not getting many good units that the development team could use to validate their parts impacted the development cycle of all products.

It's also quite fun to compare the amount of words spent talking about 10nm this meeting versus the previous one. They did in fact tell much less this year despite having designed products and test chips etc. on 10nm for more than a year.
 
Last edited:

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
That's just another Yoga Pro 3 review. Intel really had to see this coming and made sure a 6W fanless version of Broadwell-Y launched first without any issues. Now people don't seem to grasp that the TDP is a majestic 4X lower compared to the previous Yoga. The fact that this model has an iteration suffix which makes it prone to comparison against its predecessor doesn't help either.

That lower power consumption could have one upside; longer battery life. Our testing so far is unfortunately a little inconclusive. At 50 percent brightness, the same situation as we tested the Yoga Pro 2, the 3 certainly delivers much more, closing in at almost ten hours compared to just over six. This comes in spite of the 3 having a smaller battery—44Wh compared to the older model's 54Wh.

That is a 2X improvement in battery life per Wh, so that's very good (note: that 50% brightness setting makes it suspicious, though, since that are arbitrary units). It would have been even better if the resolution wasn't so high; even 1440p could have made a noticeable difference.
 

sefsefsefsef

Senior member
Jun 21, 2007
218
1
71
However, 50 percent brightness feels quite dim, and wouldn't be comfortable in well-lit environments. Crank up to 100 percent and the battery life seems to drop perilously, to just under 5 hours.

Unfortunately, Ars doesn't seem to standardize their screen brightness test on an absolute brightness, so it's hard to tell what's really going on here. One thing this does highlight, though, is that the display probably has a larger impact on battery life than the CPU ever did. Intel might be focusing on a problem (CPU power consumption) that doesn't really exist in this market segment, at the expense of performance.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |