Intel Broadwell Thread

[zir_blazer]

Urgh, if Intel want to push it, they could drive AMD APUs out of the market. Broadwell + Crystal Well simply smashed Kaveri/Godovari.

Now, some remarks:

1 - Price is higher than the K-Series Haswells. Since the Processor package should be more complex due being a MCM, plus more actual silicon, I don't think it is unjustified. However, it does means that Intel can charge whatever price premium they want, and Processors could actually become more expensive in later generations since instead of replacing previous ones and cannibalizing sales, they can charge price premium for the extra performance until they get rid of older inventory. That's my idea of a corporation competing with itself.

2 - I don't like the decrease in Cache L3, both Core i5 and i7 lost 2 MB Cache L3. Frequency is rather low too, possibily to keep in 65W TDP boundaries. Good thing is that it comes with 128 MB Cache L4, some sources said 64 MB. I would like to see what Broadwell does for CPU with the Crystal Well as exclusive L4 Cache instead of GPU Framebuffer.

2 - No remarks regarding if TSX was fixed. First Broadwell Steppings for Core M supposedly were bogus like Haswell, no mentions about TSX in Desktop Broadwell.

3 - No overclocking results to see what 14nm is capable of. Ridiculous!

4 - No mentions regarding 8-Series Motherboards Chipsets supporting it. I asked Supermicro one month ago regarding my X10SAT supporting Broadwell since earlier info said that Xeons E3 V4 would work on existing C22x Motherboards (Which are 8-Series based), they said that the latest version still didn't had Broadwell support. A week ago they posted a new BIOS. Since Supermicro doesn't like to publish changelogs I don't know if it is mean to include Broadwell support, but there are extreme chances that it does. If my X10SAT with C226 does support Broadwell, I don't see any reason why would ALL the other LGA 1150 Motherboards not be able to support it.

5 - No info about the Xeon E3 V4 models at all.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The -2MB cache is simply due to tags for the L4. Same with Haswell R.

It would be easy and relatively cheap to double the cache on Broadwell/Skylake with around 8-9mm2. The problem I guess is it doesnt hold up to the design rules of 1% performance for 0.5% power consumption.

 

[dark zero]

That's why I said... nVIDIA is getting screwed in the lower tiers... And AMD is irrelevant now.

AMD is the new VIA for a while and nVIDIA is the new AMD.

The minimun Fps on Intel solution is way better than both AMD or nVIDIA ones...

I wonder how much they perform overclocked

 

[Sweepr]

$276 and $366 isn't bad at all. Another proof that pre-launch prices should be taken with a grain of salt.
Core i5 4690K and Core i7 4790K recommended price is $243 and $350 (boxed).
An extra $20-30 buys you Intel's latest 14nm x86 cores, the best iGPU on the market and a huge EDRAM/L4 pool.

Ps: Twice the minimum FPS as Athlon X4 860K + discrete graphics. CPU performance still matters and Broadwell-K performs admirably here.

 

[birthdaymonkey]

Yeah you should be careful about reading things, or you might miss important information like this:

That is true, haha. I don't know why they'd bury that in the between-graphs text, rather than just testing everything on the same CPU platform in the first place.

I'm still not convinced the Iris 6200 is close to a GTX750, however. This is just one test. Other tests show very different results... for example, the AT review has the Broadwell iGPU scoring 55.25 FPS in GTAV "minimum", while a discrete R7 240 with DDR3 averages 67.69 FPS. It's hard to find a direct comparison of such a low-end card with the GTX750, but in Tom's own review of the R7 240, it's FPS is easily doubled by a 7770 in most games, which is around the same speed, if somewhat slower, than a 750.

 

[zir_blazer]

The -2MB cache is simply due to tags for the L4. Same with Haswell R.

Proof?

If you look at Haswell launch data, including Anandtech, they make a comment about the 6 MB Cache L3 on some parts, but not about that it is physically there but repurpose to something else. When AMD released Istanbul Opteron, you had optional HT Assist, which reserves 1 MB Cache L3 out of 6 for directory purposes, but you still know that it is there.


With Haswell, to begin with you have at least two different QC dies: Quad Core, GT2, 8 MB Cache L3, which is the one we see on Desktop Core i5 and i7s, then you also have a Quad Core, GT3 part, which is the one that is used with Crystal Well. That one seems to have 6 MB Cache L3, since no part that uses a QC GT3 has 8 MB Cache L3 (Actually, none I'm aware of doesn't have Crystal Well, either). Still, there is no proof than that die actually has 8 MB Cache L3 like the Desktop one, or if it got reduced to make room for the GT3. Curiously, if you look at models like the Core i7 4940MX, it could actually be the same Desktop die.

 

[ggadrian]

I would love to see a Xeon version of those processors with GPU drivers certified for CAD apps, those would make perfect CPU's for SFF and cheap CAD workstations.

 

[Spanners]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5775c-broadwel-reach-5-ghz-oc-on-air.html

Booted at 5GHz @1.419V but not stable enough to bench. I'm not sure if that's encouraging or not.

 

[zir_blazer]

Hell yeah, info about Xeons E3 V4:

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2411...new-5th-gen-core-chips-with-iris-pro-graphics
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/servers/data-center-graphics.html
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/dam/...ments/product-briefs/xeon-e3-1200v4-brief.pdf

Intel Xeon processor E3-1285 v4 4 3 3.50 GHz 6 MB 128M 95 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1285L v4 4 3 3.40 GHz 6 MB 128M 65 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1265L v4 4 3 2.30 GHz 6 MB 128M 35 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1278L v4 4 3 2.0 GHz 6 MB 128M 47 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1258L v4 4 2 1.8 GHz 6 MB – – 47 W

Only supported by C226. Also, C226 was required to use the IGP of Haswell Xeons that had it, since C222 and C224 didn't supported using the IGP (For Haswell, all the Desktop Chipset series does, on previous generations it was not the case and that limitation still remains to make a difference between Server and Workstation).
Notice that the E3-1258L has no Crystal Well yet 6 MB Cache L3. Plus top model is actually 95W TDP!

 

[witeken]

Transistor count and die size?

Which node is Crystal Well on?

 

[Arachnotronic]

Transistor count and die size?

Which node is Crystal Well on?

22nm.

 

[SAAA]

Die size is 145mm2 plus or less, just compare the eDRAM 77mm2 (is it still 22nm tough? I remember reading it somewhere) and the CPU die that's almost exactly twice as big:

Transistor count should be 2.3billions or something, just a tad more than the dual core+GT3 1.9billions. In practice they added 2 (small, lol) cores and a L4 controller...

Edit: Arachnotronic confirmed my doubt about the L4 so dies size is really that one, then about the 6 vs 8 MB L3: they are the exact same size as Others Broadwell dual core but there's twice the cores so... yes it's 8MB in there but 2 are utilized.

 

[Sweepr]

Hell yeah, info about Xeons E3 V4:

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2411...new-5th-gen-core-chips-with-iris-pro-graphics
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/servers/data-center-graphics.html
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/dam/...ments/product-briefs/xeon-e3-1200v4-brief.pdf

Intel Xeon processor E3-1285 v4 4 3 3.50 GHz 6 MB 128M 95 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1285L v4 4 3 3.40 GHz 6 MB 128M 65 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1265L v4 4 3 2.30 GHz 6 MB 128M 35 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1278L v4 4 3 2.0 GHz 6 MB 128M 47 W
Intel Xeon processor E3-1258L v4 4 2 1.8 GHz 6 MB – – 47 W

Only supported by C226. Also, C226 was required to use the IGP of Haswell Xeons that had it, since C222 and C224 didn't supported using the IGP (For Haswell, all the Desktop Chipset series does, on previous generations it was not the case and that limitation still remains to make a difference between Server and Workstation).
Notice that the E3-1258L has no Crystal Well yet 6 MB Cache L3. Plus top model is actually 95W TDP!

Nice find. I wonder if Xeon E3-1258L is an actual 4+2 Broadwell SKU or just a cut-down 4+3e SKU.
Xeon E3-1285 and E3-1285L are higher clocked than desktop Core i5 5775C.
Xeon E3-1278L operates at lower-clocks and draws more power than the E3-1265L? Kinda confusing. I bet one of them might be cheaper than desktop Core i5 5765C.

 

[zir_blazer]

Intel Ark with info about these 5 Xeon E3 V4 models. E3-1258L V4 and E3-1278L V4 seems to be embedded models and not Socketed according to what I read in another place, so not even count those.
Official prices seems to be ridiculous high. 445 U$D for the E3-1285L V4 and 557 U$D for the E3-1285 V4. Ouch. E3-1265L V4 will be capped due to the low default Frequency and TDP, and chances are that it is over 300 U$D anyways consider than that is what cost the current E3-1265L V3.
Desktop Broadwell seems to be an expensive, niche product.

They're also talking a lot about graphics virtualization in the marketing info. That's XenGT, it allows to share the IGP among multiple VMs (Haswells can do that too).

 

[frozentundra123456]

Impressive technology, but tbh, i still would rather have a minimal igp and 2 more cores for the mainstream. I actually think that would also induce a lot more people to upgrade, since anyone really concerned with igp performance will have a dgpu anyway. At least that would get hex core on the leading edge node. OTOH, they didnt raise the price much, so you are getting a much better igp for little additional cost.

 

[jj109]

Seeing what the L4 is doing for minimum frame rates and frame times vs 4790K, I'd be happy with having a 128MB L4 on all the high-end mainstream CPUs.

 

[PaulIntellini]

Die size is 145mm2 plus or less, just compare the eDRAM 77mm2 (is it still 22nm tough? I remember reading it somewhere)

According to the following document, die size is 169mm2 (eDRAM die is 80mm2.)

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...-core-mobile-embedded-thermal-mech-guide.html

 

[Arachnotronic]

According to the following document, die size is 169mm2 (eDRAM die is 80mm2.)

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...-core-mobile-embedded-thermal-mech-guide.html

Good find; so it's a 0.64x shrink from Haswell GT3e.

 

[PaulIntellini]

Seeing what the L4 is doing for minimum frame rates and frame times vs 4790K, I'd be happy with having a 128MB L4 on all the high-end mainstream CPUs.

I hope they will shrink the eDRAM to 14nm and integrate it on the main die. the eDRAM arrays should only be ~35 mm2 in 14nm (assuming its ~70 mm2 for the 22nm)

While OPIO is pretty efficient (1 Watt for the IO on the haswell cpu), more bandwidth never hurts.

Or maybe they will use their new "Embedded Multi-die Interconnect Bridge" technology.

According to the leaks, Skylake-U will have 64 mb eDRAM for certain SKUs.
There, the eDRAM could be integrated on the "Sunrise Point" PCH, which apparently uses the 22nm SOC process.

 

[SPBHM]

lack of OC on those reviews is disappointing, but it left me wondering, if you can OC the IGP enough this could be a good alternative to buying $100 VGAs, unlike the AMD APUs this CPU can be used with any VGA later when you upgrade without huge bottlenecks,

but that's only based on the GTA V low details graphic from Tomshadware, hopefully more tests will be made soon comparing it to discrete graphics, like 7700s, 260s and so on... and with the IGP (and the l4?) overclocked

 

[AtenRa]

lack of OC on those reviews is disappointing, but it left me wondering, if you can OC the IGP enough this could be a good alternative to buying $100 VGAs, unlike the AMD APUs this CPU can be used with any VGA later when you upgrade without huge bottlenecks,

but that's only based on the GTA V low details graphic from Tomshadware, hopefully more tests will be made soon comparing it to discrete graphics, like 7700s, 260s and so on... and with the IGP (and the l4?) overclocked

I can tell you right now that Athlon 860K ($78) + R7 260X ($90) (both at default) can do 70fps+ in Bioshock Infinity at 1080p Medium.

According to Toms review, Broadwell Core i7 only managed 44fps

The two Broadwell processors serve up 22 and 21 FPS at 1920x1080 with Ultra settings. Stepping down to the Medium preset gets you an average of 44 and 41 FPS.

 

[Enigmoid]

I can tell you right now that Athlon 860K ($78) + R7 260X ($90) (both at default) can do 70fps+ in Bioshock Infinity at 1080p Medium.

According to Toms review, Broadwell Core i7 only managed 44fps

Of course. Nobody is disputing this. Iris pro falls just as far (or perhaps farther) away from an cpu + igp combo than any AMD APU.

However, the i7 has stupidly better CPU performance, on the order of 2x. If you want that kind of CPU prowess you have no choice to buy this chip.

As far as a comparison to haswell goes this chip looks like it costs $20 more but has significantly better igp performance and uses significantly less power. Minimum framerates in games seem to be doing better as well. It is almost as fast as the 4770k/4790k and with even a mild overclock it will exceed haswell. Hitting even as low as 4.2 ghz is a significant overclock at minimum of 13.5% (i7-5775C 4C turbo is 3.7 ghz) to 27.3% (4C turbo is 3.3 ghz) with (IMO) and expected increase of 20% (4C turbo is 3.5 ghz). If you can hit 4.5 ghz, you are looking at a minimum of 22% better performance with (4C stock @ 3.5 ghz) +28.5% expected performance than in these reviews which is a massive bump.

In other words instead of Broadwell 4C + GT3e being solely a fringe chip its fitting in fairly well into the mainstream lineup. Personally I would prefer a chip with the same die size and price with GT2e graphics and 6 cores (get rid of 24 EU and add two cores) at 95W TDP. But that would basically invalidate x99 except for the 8C 5960X.

 

[dark zero]

The core i5 BW is way better than any APU... However the A8 7600 is cheaper and more useful in lower tiers.

The idea is like this:
A8 7600
I5 BW
The rest.

 

[jpiniero]

Has anyone tried overclocking the IGP yet?

 

[AtenRa]

Of course. Nobody is disputing this. Iris pro falls just as far (or perhaps farther) away from an cpu + igp combo than any AMD APU.

However, the i7 has stupidly better CPU performance, on the order of 2x. If you want that kind of CPU prowess you have no choice to buy this chip.

As far as a comparison to haswell goes this chip looks like it costs $20 more but has significantly better igp performance and uses significantly less power. Minimum framerates in games seem to be doing better as well. It is almost as fast as the 4770k/4790k and with even a mild overclock it will exceed haswell. Hitting even as low as 4.2 ghz is a significant overclock at minimum of 13.5% (i7-5775C 4C turbo is 3.7 ghz) to 27.3% (4C turbo is 3.3 ghz) with (IMO) and expected increase of 20% (4C turbo is 3.5 ghz). If you can hit 4.5 ghz, you are looking at a minimum of 22% better performance with (4C stock @ 3.5 ghz) +28.5% expected performance than in these reviews which is a massive bump.

In other words instead of Broadwell 4C + GT3e being solely a fringe chip its fitting in fairly well into the mainstream lineup. Personally I would prefer a chip with the same die size and price with GT2e graphics and 6 cores (get rid of 24 EU and add two cores) at 95W TDP. But that would basically invalidate x99 except for the 8C 5960X.

Really if you want a good CPU you better wait a couple of months for Skylake 4C 8T with GT2. It will be faster with new motherboards, new chipsets with better features etc etc.

If Intel would release a unlocked Broadwell Core i3 GT3e at $150-170 i would consider it to be a good competitor against AMD APUs.

Only very few will buy Broadwell Core i5/7 for the iGPU at that price, and those will be consumers without any price constrains. Only those that dont care about the price and want the fastest NUC based iGPU low power setup.