Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[jpiniero]

Seems that in the games where Intel is faster, Comet Lake is either faster (even without OCing) or maybe only slightly slower than Rocket Lake.

Yeah it's pretty much a bust.

 

[Mopetar]

The question is not one or the other.

It's an APU, which is designed to be a low or mid-range consumer part, so space is very much at a premium. The amount of ray tracing hardware you could put into an APU would be pointlessly small and the performance would be awful on top of what is already usually a lackluster showing. The ray tracing hardware isn't useful for anything outside of ray tracing so it sits completely unused because no one wants to start measuring their game play in SFP.

Adding the kind of neural net hardware that something like DLSS relies on, might not provide a lot of benefit outside of that functionality either, but it is a lot less fixed-function than the ray tracing hardware, so there's a better chance it gets used for other things assuming there's an API developers could use. However, almost anyone with an APU would run some kind of DLSS because it probably lets them run most games at 1080p with playable FPS.

You're arguing for the inclusion of hardware that no one would use and would be pilloried as pointless in the tech press vs. something that potentially could be leveraged for other tasks and would give a big boost to anyone wanting better gameplay out of their APU. Nvidia didn't even bother including ray tracing hardware in the 16xx series of GPUs because they knew how pointless it would be. Why do you think it would be a good idea for AMD to cram it into an even less powerful chip?

I'm sure that when AMD starts putting RDNA2 into their APUs they'll use one of the low-end designs that doesn't include ray tracing hardware for similar reasons. They aren't going to put it in the entire product stack for the same reason that Nvidia didn't. The performance would be too awful for anyone to use it on low-end hardware so it's just wasting die space.

 

[Panino Manino]

What's the verdict? Is he vindicated?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1376885059853156360

 

[Timorous]

What's the verdict? Is he vindicated?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1376885059853156360

Not based on the reviews I have read. The 11900K can't really beat the 5800X in 720p gaming over at TPU. It does better in the Computer Base test suite but it only wins by a couple of % and is still behind the 5900X.

The 11600K is better for the money but really Z490 + 10850, 10700 or 10400 are probably the best choices depending on price point and use case if you are buying a whole new platform. Obviously if you already have B450 then going 5xxx series gets you better performance for the same kind of money.

Also overclocking looks to be pretty much on existent as well. It is an IPC step but the down sides are too great.

 

[tamz_msc]

What's the verdict? Is he vindicated?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1376885059853156360

Eh, the 11900K without ABT is like 2% ahead of the 5900X in his testing. That's with testing a pure draw-call limited scenario with all post process, AA, AF, AO disabled/set to a minimum at 720p. He doesn't have the 5800X for comparison, which I suspect would close the gap to make Rocket Lake and Zen 3 indistinguishable in his testing.

 

[Hitman928]

What's the verdict? Is he vindicated?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1376885059853156360

Not when every other respected reviewer I've seen contradicts his results.

 

[RTX2080]

Relationship between Voltage, Power(Stress), Temp, of RKL

note: this is not a review but an official document by MSI

 

[coercitiv]

What's the verdict? Is he vindicated?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1376885059853156360

Let me put it this way.

How it started:

It's absolut realistic that a 11400F + B-board + RAM OC will beat the entire Ryzen 5000 lineup in gaming.

How it's going:

Rocket Lake eliminates some weaknesses of the platform with PCIe Gen 4 for example. The gaming performance is convincing, in the end it is even close enough for the gaming crown. Zen 3 is a strong gaming architecture so it is no great surprise that Rocket Lake is only slightly ahead.

In the end, the small i5-11400F will probably be the true star of the 11th generation. The i5 which is available for about 165 Euros, is already on its way to us.

In other words...

Just watch as it gets spinned from "beat in gaming" to "beat in gaming value". The latter will be true, although if you think about it... Comet Lake CPU are already doing that.

 

[coercitiv]

Relationship between Voltage, Power(Stress), Temp, of RKL

We can also see how power consumption looks like in gaming, thanks to CapFrameX:



In CPU intensive titles the 8-core RKL-S is saturating the 125W TDP.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Has anyone seen the iGPU 750 on the 11600K tested? If it can provide GT 1030 level performance, it greatly enhances its value IMO. Being able to play older games well, and newer games on reduced settings, while having a powerful 6/12 CPU attached, would let buyers hold out, instead of getting ripped of on a vid card. It is really the only reason I could see buying one. If you think buyers are not interested in that, look how fast the 3400G goes out of stock, and the prices it has been fetching.

Speaking for myself: The performance per watt, max power draw, meh gaming performance and overclocking v. 10th gen, and limited upgrade path, are all too much to overcome without the iGPU factoring in to the purchase.

 

[lobz]

Seems that in the games where Intel is faster, Comet Lake is either faster (even without OCing) or maybe only slightly slower than Rocket Lake.

Yeah it's pretty much a bust.

That's what anyone with a little bit of common sense has been telling since the first intel gaming slide appeared and some salty guys here have crowned RKL quite prematurely based on GeekBench of all metrics...

 

[dullard]

Has anyone seen the iGPU 750 on the 11600K tested? If it can provide GT 1030 level performance, it greatly enhances its value IMO. Being able to play older games well, and newer games on reduced settings, while having a powerful 6/12 CPU attached, would let buyers hold out, instead of getting ripped of on a vid card. It is really the only reason I could see buying one. If you think buyers are not interested in that, look how fast the 3400G goes out of stock, and the prices it has been fetching.

Speaking for myself: The performance per watt, max power draw, meh gaming performance and overclocking v. 10th gen, and limited upgrade path, are all too much to overcome without the iGPU factoring in to the purchase.

A couple iGPU tests are here: https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/cpu/147440-intel-core-i9-11900k/?page=11 Not really playable frame rates on those games.

Since I'm in desperate need of a mid-line desktop, and don't game, I'm looking through reviews intensely to see if I can get away with a ~11600 and no video card. The iGPU test results are nearly non-existent.

My conclusion so far: avoid Rocket Lake for high-end. Get AMD if you can find a chip and a video card. For the middle-of-the-line computer the Rocket Lake i5 seems like quite a bit better than Comet Lake i5, good enough to probably push me back to the Intel side.

 

[blckgrffn]

Has anyone seen the iGPU 750 on the 11600K tested? If it can provide GT 1030 level performance, it greatly enhances its value IMO. Being able to play older games well, and newer games on reduced settings, while having a powerful 6/12 CPU attached, would let buyers hold out, instead of getting ripped of on a vid card. It is really the only reason I could see buying one. If you think buyers are not interested in that, look how fast the 3400G goes out of stock, and the prices it has been fetching.

Speaking for myself: The performance per watt, max power draw, meh gaming performance and overclocking v. 10th gen, and limited upgrade path, are all too much to overcome without the iGPU factoring in to the purchase.

Sounds like Xe drivers are still pretty rough even if the raw performance was there (and it looks like it isn't). So with weak performance and meh drivers (which is sorta to be expected at this point, I think) I don't think it holds up for that use case.

When you can get a used 1060 3GB for ~$130 that no iGPU can touch, IDK, it seems like a stretch to be APU gaming on a brand new GPU architecture with so few execution units.

Having hands-on tested some gaming in games I care about (BL3) on the 3400G, I'd say it was similar in newer games to a GTX 950 which is to say playable but definitely not shiny. I was surprised at how well it compared to a 7950 I had on hand at the time, actually. Which is to say if it outclassed/matched the 3400G APU for gaming performance I would agree with you.

 

[tamz_msc]

Sounds like Xe drivers are still pretty rough even if the raw performance was there (and it looks like it isn't). So with weak performance and meh drivers (which is sorta to be expected at this point, I think) I don't think it holds up for that use case.

When you can get a used 1060 3GB for ~$130 that no iGPU can touch, IDK, it seems like a stretch to be APU gaming on a brand new GPU architecture with so few execution units.

Having hands-on tested some gaming in games I care about (BL3) on the 3400G, I'd say it was similar in newer games to a GTX 950 which is to say playable but definitely not shiny. I was surprised at how well it compared to a 7950 I had on hand at the time, actually. Which is to say if it outclassed/matched the 3400G APU for gaming performance I would agree with you.

Yep Xe drivers are a hit or miss. Basically if the game you want to play isn't listed on gameplay.intel.com, you're on your own.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Thanks guys.

Bummer it won't cut it for gaming as well as the Vega 11.

And where are you seeing the 1060 3GB at that price from a place you can trust? And no mining version, those are a waste of time. All I see is rolling the dice on marketplaces that I have never used like offer up. And I have no idea what recourse I would have if something went wrong. I had a GPU purchase turn out to be a scam on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. I did not have to do anything. They handled the whole thing, and had my money back in my paypal in the timeframe the cards were supposed to arrive. $130 is 1030 or used 750ti money now. Or older cards yet. Where reliability and and getting my money back after a month are out the window.

That is why I was hoping the 750 was around the level of Vega. I would have considered it a compelling selling point.

 

[Zucker2k]

Frankly, RKL-S is quite underwhelming. I'm not even interested in seeing overclocked gaming benchmarks. All I can think of is of what use was all that extra silicon? They could've easily fitted 12 CML-S cores on there. I know, I know, ring limitations. Still, couldn't they have found a way to wring a bit more performance from the Skylake arch rather than resort to backporting? Talk about waste of resources.
Don't get me wrong, some enthusiasts will be running these @ 5GHz+ with monstrous RAM overclocks but I definitely expected better. Latency is truly a b****.

 

[blckgrffn]

Thanks guys.

Bummer it won't cut it for gaming as well as the Vega 11.

And where are you seeing the 1060 3GB at that price from a place you can trust? And no mining version, those are a waste of time. All I see is rolling the dice on marketplaces that I have never used like offer up. And I have no idea what recourse I would have if something went wrong. I had a GPU purchase turn out to be a scam on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. I did not have to do anything. They handled the whole thing, and had my money back in my paypal in the timeframe the cards were supposed to arrive. $130 is 1030 or used 750ti money now. Or older cards yet. Where reliability and and getting my money back after a month are out the window.

That is why I was hoping the 750 was around the level of Vega. I would have considered it a compelling selling point.

It's been hit or miss on Ebay. I checked a couple days ago and there was a page of them, then now I see it's been cleared of stuff at that price. 🤷‍♂️

Since it seems like they are the card that I am stockpiling/acquiring for some darn reason I was just curious what they were worth.

 

[ondma]

Eurogamer review, seems well done. Decent gains over CL in a couple of games. Flight Simulator seems to perform particularly well on Rocket Lake, even faster than Ryzen.
link .
Unfortunately, like Anand they only use a 2080 ti, but at least they use faster ram. They also mention that the mid range i5s offer the best improvement over CL.

 

[Mopetar]

All I can think of is of what use was all that extra silicon?

Cost of back-porting the design from 10nm. It's a two steps forward, one-and-half backwards outcome in the best case. However, it does leave me a little more hopeful for Alder Lake, at least in terms of architecture. The wildcard there is going to be the 10nm process node.

 

[ondma]

Cost of back-porting the design from 10nm. It's a two steps forward, one-and-half backwards outcome in the best case. However, it does leave me a little more hopeful for Alder Lake, at least in terms of architecture. The wildcard there is going to be the 10nm process node.

Actually, kind of the opposite for me. Seems to show that for gaming, latency (or maybe some other unknown factors) cancel out the raw cpu IPC gains in all but a few cases (like Flight Simulator). The hybrid structure of AL seems to just scream latency/scheduling issues. IDK if the cache design will be better than RL.

 

[Shivansps]

Has anyone seen the iGPU 750 on the 11600K tested? If it can provide GT 1030 level performance, it greatly enhances its value IMO. Being able to play older games well, and newer games on reduced settings, while having a powerful 6/12 CPU attached, would let buyers hold out, instead of getting ripped of on a vid card. It is really the only reason I could see buying one. If you think buyers are not interested in that, look how fast the 3400G goes out of stock, and the prices it has been fetching.

Speaking for myself: The performance per watt, max power draw, meh gaming performance and overclocking v. 10th gen, and limited upgrade path, are all too much to overcome without the iGPU factoring in to the purchase.

I did not, but i really dont need to see the tests, GT1030 perf is in between of 3200G<->3400G IGP perf, you need a lot more than a 32CU Xe to get that kind of performance.

That said, i was just checking and for some reason people likes to test IGPs at 1080p when they are giving unplayable framerates... why they dont do 720p/900p instead i have no idea.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I did not, but i really dont need to see the tests, GT1030 perf is in between of 3200G<->3400G IGP perf, you need a lot more than a 32CU Xe to get that kind of performance.

Yeah, I had not even looked at the specs, just saw the Xe and made the mistake of thinking the performance would hopefully mirror the mobile version.

 

[blckgrffn]

Yeah, I had not even looked at the specs, just saw the Xe and made the mistake of thinking the performance would hopefully mirror the mobile version.

Another cost of back porting, had to cut it way, way down...

I did not, but i really dont need to see the tests, GT1030 perf is in between of 3200G<->3400G IGP perf, you need a lot more than a 32CU Xe to get that kind of performance.

That said, i was just checking and for some reason people likes to test IGPs at 1080p when they are giving unplayable framerates... why they dont do 720p/900p instead i have no idea.

Unless the game supports the scaling in-engine, running down resolution sucks on LCDs. Blinking in out of the application, etc. I can see why people are native resolution (1080p a lot of the time) or bust myself.

 

[Hulk]

Now that Rocket Lake has been released, looking back at our pages and pages of discussion, leaks, rumors, and now verified tests Intel's decisions are looking just a little clearer to me.

I think it really comes down to production. Intel has billions and billions of dollars of fabs and they can't let them sit idle. It's easy to say, "Why didn't they just release Tiger Lake 8 core 10SF instead of Rocket Lake?" They simply didn't have the production capability for 10SF to make this happen now. They have orders to fill and they only way they were going to be able to fill them is by utilizing their 14nm fabrication process. I assume once they produce enough Rocket Lake parts to fulfill order to Dell, HP, Acer, etc.. and enough stock for retailers they will begin to transition their fabs to 10SF.

Thing is by the time they are in full swing with 10SF/ESF, AMD will be full swing with 5nm.

I'm wondering how Intel 10ESF will compare to TMSC 5nm in terms of transistor density and power? Will the gap be larger than 14nm vs. TMSC 7nm which exists currently?

 

[moonbogg]

It might have been OK to get an 11900K for some OC fun, but the price completely shuts down any incentive to get one. How they are charging a similar price as a 5900X has me feeling pretty confused.