Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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vailr

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,365
54
91
One might assume that any new (as yet unreleased) Intel processors would have to include revised silicon that overcomes the Spectre/Meltdown security issues: not just a revised motherboard bios firmware that addresses the issue. But haven't seen anything specific, especially as to whether or not recent generation desktop (Haswell?)/Skylake/Kabylake/Coffeelake CPU's might also be getting revised silicon?
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
They might be able to patch it, but I've heard it might need a more drastic change to fully mitigate it. That may mean solutions towards the end of the year, with fully fixed ones maybe with Icelake generation.

Forget about previous generations. Why would they bother with new stepping on Haswell/Skylake, even Kabylake? They are on their way to being a discontinued product.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,775
1,346
126
It may have been... but not now.

That's why I think there's those new rumors about Apple making a new 'cheap' Macbook Air are true. It's something of a temporary replacement for the Macbook. Maybe it'll come with the Kaby Lake 8130U which has already been announced and looks like the Cannonlake U replacement.
Personally I wouldn't be surprised to that "cheap" MacBook Air just being the same Broadwell machine with a $100 price cut... and then they discontinue it in 2019.

Apple has been strategically letting the MacBook Air stagnate since 2015, so that in 2017 it actually benched slower than the Y series chips in the 12" MacBook. I'm not sure I see Apple suddenly giving it a much faster CPU, given that it's a legacy product now that's likely soon to see the chopping block.

As for Cannon Lake getting delayed yet again, it wouldn't be so bad if it's just a few months. And compared to Kaby Lake Y which on paper came out Q3 2016, Cannon Lake Y coming out in Q3 2018 isn't really that bad, considering the initial Kaby Lake Y was kind of a half-assed launch IMO. The mature stepping of the Kaby Lake Y line (which included a key multimedia upgrade across the line, as well as a vastly faster Core m3) didn't come out until Q2 2017.

Judging by what everyone here is saying now, it is looking like:

2018 spring: Coffee Lake U quad-core with GT3e and I'm thinking the i7 will be at least 1.7 GHz.
Speed boost over previous generation may be around 30-35%.

2018 spring: Coffee Lake H hex-core with GT2.
Speed boost over previous generation may be around 30-35%.

2018 summer: Cannon Lake Y dual-core.
Speed boost over previous generation ???.

2019 spring: Ice Lake Y quad-core (although IntelUser2000 has cast some doubt about Thunderbolt 3).
Speed boost over previous generation ???.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,013
5,586
136
Apple has been strategically letting the MacBook Air stagnate since 2015, so that in 2017 it actually benched slower than the Y series chips in the 12" MacBook. I'm not sure I see Apple suddenly giving it a much faster CPU, given that it's a legacy product now that's likely soon to see the chopping block.

As I said, the idea is that Apple needs something to (sort of) cover for the Macbook since Cannonlake-Y isn't coming and they can't really update the Macbook without a new processor.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
I read more about Thunderbolt. The current Intel controller has a TDP spec of 2.2W. Now it depends on what process they use, but even if they could bring that down to 0.5W, its a significant part of the 5.2W for the Y chips. Intel did state they'll bring Thunderbolt on CPUs though.

This is part of the reason why I think it'll remain optional for a while. I'm just not sure Icelake is the generation that will bring it on die.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to that "cheap" MacBook Air just being the same Broadwell machine with a $100 price cut... and then they discontinue it in 2019.

This sounds plausible too. The Macbook Air is supposed to fit between the ultra mobile Macbook, and the sort of portable, but higher performance Macbook Pro 13. Apple are not fans of making 20 different products that serve mostly the same purpose.
 

asendra

Member
Nov 4, 2012
156
12
81
I read more about Thunderbolt. The current Intel controller has a TDP spec of 2.2W. Now it depends on what process they use, but even if they could bring that down to 0.5W, its a significant part of the 5.2W for the Y chips. Intel did state they'll bring Thunderbolt on CPUs though.

This is part of the reason why I think it'll remain optional for a while. I'm just not sure Icelake is the generation that will bring it on die.



This sounds plausible too. The Macbook Air is supposed to fit between the ultra mobile Macbook, and the sort of portable, but higher performance Macbook Pro 13. Apple are not fans of making 20 different products that serve mostly the same purpose.


Actually, the current Macbook Pro 13" generation has two versions, with and without the Touch Bar.
The one without the Touch Bar uses the same CPUs (15w) as the Macbook Air, so they already have the stopgap model between the ~5w Macbooks and the 28w Macbook Pros, performance wise.

The problem is they sell them at the same price or even more than the old regular 28w Macbook Pro 13"!

Personally, I follow this with passing interest because I want to know when will the next generation of Intel CPUs will come that actually offer some good improvements on my Broadwell 2015 model. Hopefully 28w 10nm quad cores with better graphics come in 2019-early 2020... (but not before Apple redesigns the Macbook Pros Touch Bar, ports, and keyboard!)
 

ksec

Senior member
Mar 5, 2010
420
117
116
Few Notes,

Cannonlake does support LPDDR4 and Gen 10 Graphics. LPDDR4 means the possibility of 32GB Memory, and Gen 10 graphics, well I am not even sure what the word "Generation" means any more.

I think it is clear the messy line up and roadmap is Intel still dont have their 10nm done to good yield. And they have lots of design and contingency plan in case things dont work out.

And I do read there is Cannonlake coming, and so no sure why some people say otherwise. And it will be mainly for sub 15W design. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,013
5,586
136
And I do read there is Cannonlake coming, and so no sure why some people say otherwise. And it will be mainly for sub 15W design. Correct me if I am wrong.

It's mainly a paper launch/shareholder PR release and only the 15W. I think the laptop makers who might have used it will now use the i3 8130U.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
Cannonlake does support LPDDR4 and Gen 10 Graphics. LPDDR4 means the possibility of 32GB Memory, and Gen 10 graphics, well I am not even sure what the word "Generation" means any more.

Gen 10 for graphics doesn't mean it uses graphics meant for 10th Generation core. All the Intel graphics since Skylake uses Gen 9 graphics. For graphics, the Gen designation is internal use and for developers.

Generation when referring to CPUs meant an easier reference to what cores were used, but if you think about it, the newer way makes sense too. With 8th Gen CPUs, we get 6 core desktop and mobile CPUs, the one with Radeon Vega graphics. It can be seen as a significant generational improvement.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,144
550
146
It's fine. Was there ever a doubt Z390 exists? This does not change existence of Coffee Lake 8-core at all (on and off).
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,208
2,255
136
Yes it looks like CFL 8C is coming in H2 2018, more likely in Q4 2018 together with Z390. Not sure if this a good sign for ICL-S because with a typical product cycle of 1 year (or more) between two generations ICL-S is not coming before Q4 2019, in a worst case not before H1 2020.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Yes it looks like CFL 8C is coming in H2 2018, more likely in Q4 2018 together with Z390. Not sure if this a good sign for ICL-S because with a typical product cycle of 1 year (or more) between two generations ICL-S is not coming before Q4 2019, in a worst case not before H1 2020.
That's a silly reasoning because you invented the Q4 yourself. For instance we know Whiskey Lake will be a short lived product, with Icelake-Y/U coming in Q4 and ramping in ~Q1'19.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,208
2,255
136
That's a silly reasoning because you invented the Q4 yourself.


Rumours points toward Q4 2018, not sure what is new to you.


For instance we know Whiskey Lake will be a short lived product, with Icelake-Y/U coming in Q4 and ramping in ~Q1'19.


It might ramp in Q1 2019 but I wouldn't expect ICL-U devices in stores before mid 2019.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Yes it looks like CFL 8C is coming in H2 2018, more likely in Q4 2018 together with Z390. Not sure if this a good sign for ICL-S because with a typical product cycle of 1 year (or more) between two generations ICL-S is not coming before Q4 2019, in a worst case not before H1 2020.

CFL refresh could be short-lived, just like BDW was. We do know WHL is short lived and WHL/CFL-S Refresh might come out together as 9th gen.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,208
2,255
136
CFL refresh could be short-lived, just like BDW was. We do know WHL is short lived and WHL/CFL-S Refresh might come out together as 9th gen.


BDW couldn't even beat Haswell, it wasn't meant to be a desktop replacement of Haswell. With CFL 8C we would get an 33% core count increase. WHL is just KBL-R on 14++, there is not much extra effort required. The last schedule info we got for ICL-U is ww20 2019 which is a mid 2019 target, still no info about ICL-S. The few leaks we have are based on mobile. It doesn't look like they will launch ICL-S before ICL-U at the moment.
 
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sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,652
203
106
So the rumored 8 core Coffee Lake S chip... will it be higher than the 8700K, like an 8800K?
Or will this have more cores but less single core speed?

i didnt think the roadmaps showed anything higher than the 8700K till almost 2020...?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,786
4,751
136
So the rumored 8 core Coffee Lake S chip... will it be higher than the 8700K, like an 8800K?
Or will this have more cores but less single core speed?

i didnt think the roadmaps showed anything higher than the 8700K till almost 2020...?
9000 Series CPUs.

As for clocks - the same pattern with 6C/12T 8000 series vs 4C/8T 7000 series clocks.
 

scannall

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2012
1,960
1,678
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9000 Series CPUs.

As for clocks - the same pattern with 6C/12T 8000 series vs 4C/8T 7000 series clocks.
If it's on the 10nm process, expect a regression in clock speeds. And that's the sticking point. Will enthusiasts go for 5% IPC uptick, and a 15% clock speed drop?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,786
4,751
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If it's on the 10nm process, expect a regression in clock speeds. And that's the sticking point. Will enthusiasts go for 5% IPC uptick, and a 15% clock speed drop?
Why would 8 core COFFEE LAKE CPU be on 10 nm process?
 

scannall

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2012
1,960
1,678
136
Why would 8 core COFFEE LAKE CPU be on 10 nm process?
Been rumors to that effect. I don't think it will be either, but 10nm has been a big problem for them for a while. And will be for at least the near future.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,786
4,751
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Well, according to tech analysts - don't expect 10 nm BEFORE 2H 2019 on desktop. So if Intel will come up with Coffee Lake-R 9th Gen 2H 2018 they have one year of full sales of that lineup.
 
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