I wonder what that would mean for the 384 EU iGPU leaks for ARL. Would the iGPU be in the compute tile?
Regarding ARL vs LNL performance expectations according to the reddit post that Curmudgeon666 captured. One key point on the description of ARL would be the leading sentence, "Will feature an updated compute tile." If you take this to literally mean that ARL is the MTL design with just the compute tile swapped the performance projections make a bit more sense. It would by far be the fastest option for Intel to get the new core design to market, but it could leave a fair bit of performance on the table for LNL to extract. (In addition to the process node advantage for LNL, of course.)
ARM, thus far, is still irrelevant. Maybe in 3 years? (longer than that for any type of desktop penetration)You can't have a truce without a fight. Intel and AMD are on the same team: them vs ARM.
Intel doesn't care about Apple. The world STILL does not run-on Macs. Apple doesn't even have a server product.Apple is way ahead in IPC. If that "lifestyle company" memo was any indication then Intel is targeting high IPC. Apple having 2x IPC of present Intel CPUs by late 2025 doesn't seem impossible. Even if they're confident Apple won't be willing to clock as high, Intel need massive increases. 1.5x at least.
I'd rather see Intel build and expand on Atom and phase out Core altogether. Core is power hungry.Great. I will be happy to be dead wrong on this one. It will be interesting to see how wide and smart these cores can become.
Irrelevant for desktops, yes. But desktops are slowly dying off. I know lots of people who haven't touched a desktop in years and have switched entirely to phones. ARM is much bigger for just about any other type of use case though.ARM, thus far, is still irrelevant. Maybe in 3 years? (longer than that for any type of desktop penetration)
ARM, thus far, is still irrelevant. Maybe in 3 years? (longer than that for any type of desktop penetration)
Same concept as with the compute tile could easily apply here. Keep the fundamental SoC architecture the same and simply swap the X-EU graphics tile for a new Y-EU graphics tile. The leaks regarding MTL already indicate this capability as it is said to span from 96-192 EU I believe?I wonder what that would mean for the 384 EU iGPU leaks for ARL. Would the iGPU be in the compute tile?
Intel doesn't care about Apple. The world STILL does not run-on Macs. Apple doesn't even have a server product.
Really think that Gelsinger memo disproves your notion. They care and would very much like to compete well against Apple. Intel knows what happens if you end up relegated to "big iron".Intel doesn't care about Apple.
I'd rather see Intel build and expand on Atom and phase out Core altogether. Core is power hungry.
Irrelevant for desktops, yes. But desktops are slowly dying off. I know lots of people who haven't touched a desktop in years and have switched entirely to phones. ARM is much bigger for just about any other type of use case though.
Doubt. https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16640/Neoverse_Intro_10.png
Desktop will indeed take a while, but ARM Chromebooks & Macbooks are totally a thing and ARM Windows is trying with the few Qualcomm based laptops.
Without turning this into an ARM thread, respectfully, you are wrong. For example, I have an entire library of more than 2,000 games on steam that do not run on ARM platforms. PC Gaming is a 50 billion dollar market. I have numerous productivity tools that are Windows only. MANY of us out there that use our computers to make money rely on x86 (either Windows or Linux) to get our jobs done. Just because a small subset of individuals use Chromebooks and some productivity folks use Macs does not mean that ARM is taking over. If ARM were taking over, Intel wouldn't be the largest maker of high-performance processors out there and AMD wouldn't be doubling revenue every single year. You can talk about upcoming products all you want, but until ARM can penetrate the majority of the PC market, it is going nowhere. It can't do that until a solution faster that the M1 is developed and made available along with a flexible, modular platform that runs Windows and Linux. Do you think that many of us here, all DIY folks, would stop being DIY folks and start buying cheapo ARM pre-builts one day? Do you think that suddenly the gaming industry is going to switch to ARM just because it isn't x86? Do you think those studios using 64 core Threadripper systems are going to switch to Macs just because they are ARM?
On a side note, I'm not "against" ARM, but claiming that ARM is going to somehow magically take over a huge x86 market is just pure fantasy.
There will always be software that benefits from stronger MT performance, so some sort of "big core" isn't going anywhere. Though Atom's performance trajectory has it intercepting Core within the decade, so something will have to change.All in good time. Lots of apps still need the big cores. Alder Lake is the first step in the transition. Hopefully programmers will start to make use of the E cores.
Don't you worry, Motorola still makes 68k parts to power dinosaur tech, just like your current software will be in a decade. Intel's path to a trillion dollar market cap is clear: DIY gamers and software that is not important enough to be rebuilt for other platforms.
I keep you blocked, but I knew you were going to reply so I clicked the dreaded link to show your replies.
Do you not understand it takes a multi-billion or trillion dollar company a decade to develop a new architecture? A decade.
That is for a company with near unlimited financial resources. For these small startups with only a few million in revenue and maybe 100 million in investor finanacing? lol.
The 68K was released in 1979, and guess who a big consumer of it was? Apple. It never really reached mainstream compared to the Intel 8088/8086. Guess who made a bad bet? Apple. Let us talk about their move to RISC after…
The only other thing I will bring up is logistics.
Done with this topic. This is not the thread. You can think what you want, but history and the future will show how things play out. If you think x86 won’t exist in the decade I encourage you to short both Intel and AMD stock, as I own a ton of each and buy more regularly.
There will always be software that benefits from stronger MT performance, so some sort of "big core" isn't going anywhere. Though Atom's performance trajectory has it intercepting Core within the decade, so something will have to change.
I think the politics at Intel would never allow the Core team to accept Atom as a replacement, even if that were the sensible thing to do. Too much pride. I've even heard that some at the company have complained about Atom's success, as it makes positioning vs the big core more confusing.Originally my fear would have been that they would hold back improvements to Atom in order to not make core look bad. However, with Intel having to compete? Who knows. I do know that if I were in charge of things over at Intel, I'd be focusing on replacing Core with Atom. Maybe create an awesome spinoff and give it a whizbang new name like they did with 'Core' vs. 'Pentium'. They are overdue for a name change anyway.
What I do know is that Zen 4, despite Intel's quicker cadence, is going to be a major thorn for Intel. Zen 4 is very likely to be well over twice as fast as Zen 1.
Without turning this into an ARM thread, respectfully, you are wrong. For example, I have an entire library of more than 2,000 games on steam that do not run on ARM platforms. PC Gaming is a 50 billion dollar market. I have numerous productivity tools that are Windows only. MANY of us out there that use our computers to make money rely on x86 (either Windows or Linux) to get our jobs done. Just because a small subset of individuals use Chromebooks and some productivity folks use Macs does not mean that ARM is taking over. If ARM were taking over, Intel wouldn't be the largest maker of high-performance processors out there and AMD wouldn't be doubling revenue every single year. You can talk about upcoming products all you want, but until ARM can penetrate the majority of the PC market, it is going nowhere. It can't do that until a solution faster that the M1 is developed and made available along with a flexible, modular platform that runs Windows and Linux. Do you think that many of us here, all DIY folks, would stop being DIY folks and start buying cheapo ARM pre-builts one day? Do you think that suddenly the gaming industry is going to switch to ARM just because it isn't x86? Do you think those studios using 64 core Threadripper systems are going to switch to Macs just because they are ARM?
On a side note, I'm not "against" ARM, but claiming that ARM is going to somehow magically take over a huge x86 market is just pure fantasy.
You missed my point. ARM is not going to take over x86. Never will happen. No one is going to ever suddenly switch to ARM.On a side note, I'm not "against" ARM, but claiming that ARM is going to somehow magically take over a huge x86 market is just pure fantasy.
You missed my point. ARM is not going to take over x86. Never will happen. No one is going to ever suddenly switch to ARM.
My first point is that x86 is slowly dying off. There is no need for ARM to take over x86 as it will just die on its own. Neither AMD nor Intel are doing well in the segments that are replacing it. Sure, AMD and Intel can have a banner year in the middle of a pandemic and chip shortages. That has nothing to do with the long-term trends: ARM sales are going up 10x a decade. Doing well for a few years does not mean that AMD and Intel are winning the war. Your focus is way too short-term.
My second point: as long as people frame it as AMD vs Intel, then AMD and Intel will both lose the war. Infighting and overlooking the real long-term problems doesn't help.
I think the politics at Intel would never allow the Core team to accept Atom as a replacement, even if that were the sensible thing to do. Too much pride. I've even heard that some at the company have complained about Atom's success, as it makes positioning vs the big core more confusing.
So I think they have to make a decision. Do they believe Core can get back on track? In that case, they should keep Atom focused on throughput efficiency, even if that means sacrificing performance. If not, they should push it hard to replace Core ASAP, consequences be damned. Maybe give the Core team a few years to reinvent themselves. Both scenarios ignore Royal, but it's a bigger existential threat to Core than Atom.
And yeah, Zen 4 is going to be awesome. Not convinced about some of the IPC rumors floating around, but I think it'll have some surprises in store with clock speed.
Windows will slowly die off too. I'm not talking this decade. Some computers will run x86 and Windows for many decades to come. But, they are becoming a smaller and smaller fraction of the time that people spend with technology.Are you suggesting Windows dies off with x86 or ARM replaces x86 on Windows somehow?