Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,005
6,447
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Guys.

Priorities please. Are we so spoiled in the western world that we have to attack each other in a forum about computer hardware?

I agree. Let's go back to the old days. Everyone grab your rocks and pointy sticks! Should the gods favor us in battle we might even fashion a few heads upon them.

If millions of years of evolution that shaped us into the brutal animals we are today only leaks out as pithy remarks on a tech forum, I think we should be glad we've progressed that far.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,710
3,927
136
Whoa, Tiger Lake desktop is making appearances on ARK under the name 11900KB. Would be a much nicer comparison to Zen 3 than Rocket Lake.


65W TDP and 24MB L3 suggest it's not just a placeholder

Recycling the product name though probably means the same performance (but it's the SuperFin power draw and oveclockability we're interested in anyways)

EDIT:
Never mind, they also used to release a 8700B - a 65W i7 8700 equivalent for mobile.

So probably it's just a mobile chip. Nothing would stop them from making a desktop version though.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,834
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So probably it's just a mobile chip. Nothing would stop them from making a desktop version though.

It's "mobile" in that it's BGA. The B line has been more for AIOs although OEMs could use it in desktops willing to be BGA.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,391
12,817
136
Whoa, Tiger Lake desktop is making appearances on ARK under the name 11900KB. Would be a much nicer comparison to Zen 3 than Rocket Lake.
5.3Ghz Thermal Velocity Boost LOL. So much for 14nm being used to enable higher clocks. If this ain't the ultimate proof that desktop segment gets the scraps... I don't know what is.

Now let's wait until someone like Acer or MSI figures out they can build a desktop class system and bring Rocket Lake to it's knees with half the power.

PS: Intel's Pentium M on the Desktop - A Viable Alternative?
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,834
5,448
136
5.3Ghz Thermal Velocity Boost LOL. So much for 14nm being used to enable higher clocks. If this ain't the ultimate proof that desktop segment gets the scraps... I don't know what is.

Now let's wait until someone like Acer or MSI figures out they can build a desktop class system and bring Rocket Lake to it's knees with half the power.

It may also be a mistake/typo and it's actually Rocket Lake.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,834
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Not with that cache config, and not with those base clocks.

It also says the i7 and i5 have TVB of 5.3 and they also don't support AVX-512 which seems unlikely they would remove that.

I'd say the products are real but clearly the specs are wrong.
 
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RasCas99

Member
May 18, 2020
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Sure, but can we see anything in the future that Intel will will come back from the stagnation and uncompetitiveness? After all, it is in the consumers' interest that they as a semiconductor and processor making company to innovate and have the choice for buyers for the best processors.

On the topic of time to market - I`ve worked there almost a decade ago and i have to agree with dmens sadly (not sure where he worked there) , but i was part of the CPU design team , the post silicon structure in intel was the worst ive seen since , the head of the team is not reporting to anyone in the silicon design team , this meant that we as design engineers were not prioritizing the debug efforts of the post silicon guys , and only responding to showstoppers with high priority , so some of the debug efforts would take months to root cause , unlike my current employer where if anything is failing in the lab we are there that same day and dont leave until we root cause and provide a WA where applicable.

In regards of what they can do , they started doing it , which is starting to be competitive on compensation , which was a big reason why they struggle to keep good people in the company coupled with 2 big firing cycles based on some algorithm , i still remember how some of our best senior engineers were out of job , this is because they got average scores on their focal results and were highly paid , this was common at their seniority at Intel as they cannot get big raises every year due to already high salary , our boss tried everything to keep them but HR said there is nothing they can do , they tried to rehire them once their paid leave was over , none of them came back out of spite , some retired all together some went to other places , that day made everyone look sideways and think when will my number come up from that algorithm , sad demoralizing times.

But the new CEO is trying to turn it around , he made it a point of bringing back lost engineers and i got few phone calls offering me to come back (never happened in previous years , as they were not able to compete on compensation with anyone around them) , even over the phone the recruiter seems to believe they can beat my current compensation package which is very good , the problem is the inertia , the org is big and slow and lost so much good ppl during the years , it wont be easy bringing them back , also talent leaving throughout the years made Intel not a desired place for the top young RCG`s as they call them , as everyone in the business knew whats up , and you wanted to go to the best paying places where you can also learn the most , and that was not Intel , so the young folks over there are not the best in the industry unfortunately , make no mistake they still have top guys , some of the best , but far too few , they bled and are still bleeding their top guys , mainly at mid seniority which is the grunt of the workforce , it should be the #1 priority to stop the bleeding now.

Lastly , the new CEO will need to make comprises on margins , the days when we came with ideas to improve performance and get shut down because it takes area that the company are unwilling to pay for as it cuts down margins are over, time for them to push pedal to the metal and go all out , wish them best of luck , i had a great time working there as a young engineer and still have some friends working there (fewer every year i must admit) which are great engineers and great ppl as well.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,045
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It also says the i7 and i5 have TVB of 5.3 and they also don't support AVX-512 which seems unlikely they would remove that.

I'd say the products are real but clearly the specs are wrong.

We will have to see. Intel has some chips hitting 5Ghz, so a well cooled desktop chip hitting 5.3 ghz is not out of the question.
 

RTX

Member
Nov 5, 2020
90
40
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Package size is only 42x28mm

The 5.3ghz can only be with a desktop cooler.
Certain defects in these chips like the cmp line from nvidia?
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,834
5,448
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Hmm, Toms has this quote from Intel:

"Intel has partnered with customers interested in expanding their product portfolio with enthusiast, small form-factor desktop designs. The Intel Core i9-11900KB processor is a BGA solution built with unique specifications and performance specifically for these designs."


In any case I bet the product will be announced on Monday.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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So the Core i9 11900B is clocked 100MHz in two clock categories compared to the Core i7 11700B, and same TVB.

This is even less than the 300MHz spread for Rocketlake chips.

I know the general market is gullible enough to believe just changing from 7 to 9 makes it much better. But this is ridiculous.

Certain defects in these chips like the cmp line from nvidia?

Probably not. Likely 10nm is going better than expected when Rocketlake was in the concept phase so allocating more. But it seems like a weird way of avoiding saying Rocketlake was a failure pretty much.

Lastly , the new CEO will need to make comprises on margins ,

Apparently the deal he made with the BoD was regardless of cost they accept him expanding investment in fabs if they want him back.

We will see whether Pat will live up to expectations, because he likely would have been a great CEO back when he should have been one. Too many things may have gone worse for even him to change now, but he's the best choice of CEO for Intel.
 
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lobz

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2017
2,057
2,856
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Kinda hard to watch a single person trolling half the forum 3 pages straight, then when someone's had enough, he gets a mod notification. We have to stay vigilant, guys, and bring down the trolls within the boundaries of the forum rules together
 

lobz

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2017
2,057
2,856
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Excitement gauge: Pentium M level. (...)
How? Pentium M was a REAL technological step forward compared to current AMD offerings (let alone P4), whereas Tiger Lake would bring Intel's 65W desktop offerings from an embarrassment to a somewhat level playing field against AMD's Zen 3. Unless I misunderstood you, in which case I'm sorry
 

lobz

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2017
2,057
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We will see whether Pat will live up to expectations, because he likely would have been a great CEO back when he should have been one. Too many things may have gone worse for even him to change now, but he's the best choice of CEO for Intel.
Currently I see him as being ridiculously overhyped, because not only one of his first public statements was calling Apple a lifestyle company after releasing M1, but the level of deception in their marketing and public relations has become only worse, if it's even possible (see Ice Lake server presentation). I don't see anything changing significantly at Intel, that hasn't already been set in motion before Pat took the head of the table. It's not just the margins that should be brought down but the size of ego too. The level of arrogance is what's poisoning everything, even straight down to the level of concepts at Intel. My 2 cents anyway.
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,391
12,817
136
How? Pentium M was a REAL technological step forward compared to current AMD offerings (let alone P4), whereas Tiger Lake would bring Intel's 65W desktop offerings from an embarrassment to a somewhat level playing field against AMD's Zen 3. Unless I misunderstood you, in which case I'm sorry
Pentium M wasn't that impressive against Athlon64, but it did make Pentium 4 look bad. What I meant by "excitement level" was OEM interest into making desktop systems based on a mobile CPU (in terms of packaging at least).
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,045
4,267
136
So the Core i9 11900B is clocked 100MHz in two clock categories compared to the Core i7 11700B, and same TVB.

This is even less than the 300MHz spread for Rocketlake chips.

I know the general market is gullible enough to believe just changing from 7 to 9 makes it much better. But this is ridiculous.



Probably not. Likely 10nm is going better than expected when Rocketlake was in the concept phase so allocating more. But it seems like a weird way of avoiding saying Rocketlake was a failure pretty much.



Apparently the deal he made with the BoD was regardless of cost they accept him expanding investment in fabs if they want him back.

We will see whether Pat will live up to expectations, because he likely would have been a great CEO back when he should have been one. Too many things may have gone worse for even him to change now, but he's the best choice of CEO for Intel.
There is a difference beyond clocks: The 11900KB has an unlocked multiplier.

Furthermore, regarding the product stack in general, there is a possibility for some of the more “fun” testing to take place, such as overclocking.

Excitement gauge: Pentium M level. The icing on the cake will be if the AVX support is also correct, meaning no AVX 512.

They even changed the platform spec from Mobile to Desktop. I guess there was a "typo" there after-all

View attachment 45018

There is another typo, can you spot it? Actually there are two, but one is near the top.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Intel intentionally disabled AVX-512 and limited PCIE to avoid cannibalizing rocket lake sales.

Tiger Lake is a missed opportunity for Intel. They had an opportunity to release a competitive desktop chip. While people gave Intel crap for power usage spikes, Tiger Lake came in at 4.9 ghz while staying under 90W. I feel if they had released an 11950K with a 125W PL1, this chip would have been faster than rocket lake.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,045
4,267
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Pentium M wasn't that impressive against Athlon64, but it did make Pentium 4 look bad. What I meant by "excitement level" was OEM interest into making desktop systems based on a mobile CPU (in terms of packaging at least).

The Core series was based off Pentium M. That got Apple to switch to x86 and it almost bankrupted AMD.
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,271
917
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they tried to rehire them once their paid leave was over , none of them came back out of spite , some retired all together some went to other places , that day made everyone look sideways and think when will my number come up from that algorithm , sad demoralizing times.

Like you said, it is out of spite. The most obvious reason they did not come back was because most of the laid off people are the 10-20 YoE worker-engineers, most of whom have been denied promotions over the years to the senior engineering ranks because that is a political promotion. They see that the politician-engineers up top were entirely insulated from the layoffs, and asked themselves:

- If I come back and they don't make me a principal/senior principal, what are the chances I will make that promo now if I did not get it the last 10 years, and what are the chances I will just be laid off again because I lack that political protection?
- Why would I come back when this other company actually promotes people based on real technical contributions?

The new CEO would have to do far more than hire people back, he needs to get rid off the dead weight. I see absolutely no sign of that happening.
 

LightningZ71

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2017
1,659
1,943
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Pouring over the ark specs, it looks like these are all based off of the eight core tiger lake chips. Not enabling avx-512 has to be either deliberate, or, these are all mobile dies that failed to validate in mobile for either a failed EU (the 11100B has only 16), a bad avx-512 path, or failing to meet power/performance targets for mobile use.

I'm actually kind of interested in why they haven't added an i3-12000B7 or BK based on the quad core die with a full house iGPU with all 96 EUs. I have to imagine that it would have made a decent little uSFF processor.
 

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
2,452
3,101
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I almost wonder whether the lack of AVX-512 on that spec page isn't just a typo, perhaps copied over from Rocket Lake. It makes very little sense otherwise.
 
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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,372
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5.3Ghz Thermal Velocity Boost LOL. So much for 14nm being used to enable higher clocks. If this ain't the ultimate proof that desktop segment gets the scraps... I don't know what is.
Tiger Lake is a missed opportunity for Intel. They had an opportunity to release a competitive desktop chip. While people gave Intel crap for power usage spikes, Tiger Lake came in at 4.9 ghz while staying under 90W. I feel if they had released an 11950K with a 125W PL1, this chip would have been faster than rocket lake.

It seems as though Intel couldn't release Tiger Lake for the desktop because they didn't have the capacity for that and mobile. Rocket Lake could (kind of) fill in on the desktop for Tiger Lake, but not for mobile due to the power hungry nature of 14nm.
 
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