Intel Enthusiast CPU Predictions

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
I am predicting that a pattern will emerge and hold, and its very simple:

Mainstream Intel chips will continue to be thermally handicapped in order to create incentive for enthusiasts and the OC crowd to pay more for a "true" enthusiast grade chip, an Intel 6 core with fluxless soldering and an enthusiast class branding.
I predict Ivy-E will not use TIM, but Solder instead and will yield impressive OC results and good temp/performance curves. If recent mainstream chips had used solder, they would OC like absolute crazy and remove incentive to buy Intel's intended enthusiast grade chips.
I predict Haswell-E will use Solder, and Broadwell mainstream chips will use TIM as well.
I don't think this is to make more money, but it appears to be an effort to guide enthusiasts in a more focused direction and to prevent mainstream chips from overtaking enthusiast chips in a majority of commonly used applications. Even if a comparably few people OC their chips, the reputation of those overclocked chips as being faster than their enthusiast class counterparts may give potential buyers the kind of information that Intel would rather them not be aware of. By limiting thermal performance on the mainstream, that information will not exist and will not apply and Intels CPU lineup will make more sense from a potential performance per dollar perspective, taking overclocking into account.
Overclocked chips establish reputations as being faster than more expensive counterparts, so it makes sense for Intel to do this in my opinion.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Well, soon enough we'll have our first data point @ 22 nm when IVB-E is released later this year. One would hope IVB-E outpaces IVB in overclocking (as that wasn't the case with SB & SB-E). Since I'm waiting for HW-E, I hope it overclocks better than HW - we'll see.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
I'm surprised de-lidding Ivy Bridge and Haswell hasn't sprung up a huge cottage industry of people de-lidding them and then applying Coolabratory Liquid Ultra and then selling the end product with a 100 USD markup en masse as "Custom Super-Overclock Chips" or "Custom Specially Binned Lower TDP Chips".
 

pcunite

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
336
1
76
Yawn ... in the 20 some odd years of Intel computing that I've been familiar with ... it always works out ... AMD employees? yeah ...
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,547
2,138
146
I'm surprised de-lidding Ivy Bridge and Haswell hasn't sprung up a huge cottage industry of people de-lidding them and then applying Coolabratory Liquid Ultra and then selling the end product with a 100 USD markup en masse as "Custom Super-Overclock Chips".

Wouldn't you have to sell them mounted with mobo and HSF? That would be a bit difficult to ship.

To the OP, here's to hoping, I just don't think enthusiasts are that big a blip on Intel's radar. My prediction is that the IB-E enthusiast chips will be built in exactly the same way as IB-E Xeons. If Xeons get indium solder, so will all the rest, but I seriously doubt they will go back to a process that was abandoned, probably because of cost.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
Wouldn't you have to sell them mounted with mobo and HSF? That would be a bit difficult to ship.

To the OP, here's to hoping, I just don't think enthusiasts are that big a blip on Intel's radar. My prediction is that the IB-E enthusiast chips will be built in exactly the same way as IB-E Xeons. If Xeons get indium solder, so will all the rest, but I seriously doubt they will go back to a process that was abandoned, probably because of cost.

That's what the Coolabratory Liquid Ultra would be for.

You would use it as the TIM between the IHS and the die, emulating fluxless solder.

Just glue/epoxy the IHS back on and people won't even care.

You wouldn't need that if you were just selling naked cores.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,547
2,138
146
That's what the Coolabratory Liquid Ultra would be for.

You would use it as the TIM between the IHS and the die, emulating fluxless solder.

Just glue/epoxy the IHS back on and people won't even care.

You wouldn't need that if you were just selling naked cores.

There are several technical problems with what you propose.

The use of Liquid Ultra would require the gap between the IHS and die to be virtually eliminated, lowering the finished height of the assembly and potentially affecting the fit of some HSF assys. The flatness of the inside of the IHS might be an issue with very thin TIMS, and it is very difficult to surface the inside of the IHS without special tools. Also it is not clear if a thermal junction like that provided by the Liquid Ultra would remain viable with a low/uncertain clamping load. The elasticity and thermal characteristics of the adhesive used to attach the IHS would be important in this case.
 

MustangSVT

Lifer
Oct 7, 2000
11,554
12
81
wrong.

because de-lidded Ivy does NOT "overclock like crazy", just the temps are greatly improved.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
There are several technical problems with what you propose.

The use of Liquid Ultra would require the gap between the IHS and die to be virtually eliminated, lowering the finished height of the assembly and potentially affecting the fit of some HSF assys. The flatness of the inside of the IHS might be an issue with very thin TIMS, and it is very difficult to surface the inside of the IHS without special tools. Also it is not clear if a thermal junction like that provided by the Liquid Ultra would remain viable with a low/uncertain clamping load. The elasticity and thermal characteristics of the adhesive used to attach the IHS would be important in this case.

I keep hearing that Coollabratory Liquid Ultra basically sets like acid glue between the IHS and the die, making this point moot.

Obviously the glue/epoxy needs to keep the core in place, but the gap, if filled completely with Coollabratory Liquid Ultra, shows significant improvement even with zero amount of improvement in z-height over stock TIM.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,547
2,138
146
I keep hearing that Coollabratory Liquid Ultra basically sets like acid glue between the IHS and the die, making this point moot.

Obviously the glue/epoxy needs to keep the core in place, but the gap, if filled completely with Coollabratory Liquid Ultra, shows significant improvement even with zero amount of improvement in z-height over stock TIM.

I want you to be right because it sounds nice, but I still believe you may be underestimating the challenges involved. The only gap refilling testhttp://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261855 I have seen was done by Idontcare, and he used NT-H1 which performed very similarly to the stock TIM.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I predict physics will win. Until we get a fundamentally different process, I don't know if we will see more than another decade or two of semi-crippled Moore's law (more cores instead of faster core is kind of cheating).
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,547
2,138
146
Not seeing the problem here.

Yeah, and I'm not gonna be the one to fix that. Suffice it to say that none of this stuff stays still under thermal cycling. Add the various thermal coefficients of all the materials involved and suddenly it's not quite so simple.

That said, I might be in line to buy one from anybody who could perfect the process and stand behind it. My guess is it ain't gonna happen. Hell, if it was that easy, Intel would be doing it. There is an engineering reason for that gap, and it isn't because their process is sloppy.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
My only hope in a <$500 enthusiast chip now rests in AMD's lap.

This relates to what I was trying to communicate in my OP. Enthusiast desktop chips are becoming a seriously low priority it would appear, due to the advent of mobile solutions as well as the lack of desktop competition. Therefore, I suspect that Intel is narrowing the enthusiast class hardware down to the more expensive, more exclusive lineups. This way they can focus on the money making mid range chips in a more economical way while not totally abandoning the enthusiast crowd, but instead redirecting them more forcefully into a high end hardware segment.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
wrong.

because de-lidded Ivy does NOT "overclock like crazy", just the temps are greatly improved.

Yeah, suddenly with Haswell's release everyone is talking up the 3770k like it's the best overclocker in the world. Anyone buying a new 3770k is in for a surprise, I suspect - it definitely gets hot as well, people forget so soon. Additionally, Haswell can obviously be delid as well so that isn't' a valid argument for getting IVB over Haswell. Personally there is no way i'd opt for IVB over Haswell for a new PC build - Haswell has the obvious IPC increase even if you're incredibly unlucky and get a slightly lower oc (which will offset a slightly lower OC) and Z87 is just a better platform than Z77 by far.

With regards to IB-E, I think it's pretty much a guarantee that it will have solder instead of TIM, being a hexa core pretty much makes that a necessity. What type of overclocks people may achieve with IB-E, it's really hard to say at this point. I'd like to say it *may* be better than IVB, but then again you're running into the same problem that IB had - you're dissipating heat from a smaller area so the temps will definitely be higher. There's no way around that.
 
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24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
Yeah, suddenly with Haswell's release everyone is talking up the 3770k like it's the best overclocker in the world. Anyone buying a new 3770k is in for a surprise, I suspect - it definitely gets hot as well, people forget so soon. Additionally, Haswell can obviously be delid as well so that isn't' a valid argument for getting IVB over Haswell.

Personally there is no way i'd opt for IVB over Haswell for a new PC build - Haswell has the obvious IPC increase even if you're incredibly unlucky and get a slightly lower oc (which will offset a slightly lower OC) and Z87 is just a better platform than Z77 by far.

The person you replied to attacked a straw-man they themselves made.

There is no need to perpetuate it.

Please read the rest of the posts surrounding the post you quoted.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,392
4,962
136
From what we know about SB->IB-> HW I can understand waiting for Ivy-E+X89, specially if it will have solder instead of TIM, and the upgraded chipset. But with the minuscule performance increase from IB-> HW then I can't imagine that HW-E will something special, unless you do work that really benefits from the new instructions.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
I doubt its really market tactics I think its raw economics. The process keeps getting more expensive and Intel is trying not to raise prices. To maintain margin its looking at ways to change the chips so they are cheaper to produce where it doesn't matter, and the lid TIM isn't an issue for most people.

For the SB-E chips TIM under the lid wouldn't allow the removal of enough heat at a sustainable temperature due to the heat produced by the larger die, so they use the solder because they have to. I can't imagine really that Intel marketing gets to play with things like how the processor is made, that is a core engineering decision and they are making it on the basis of what is necessary and only paying for packaging they need not what is best.

I anticipate Intel will continue to make them this way, because the need for solder is based on the thermal output of the underlying chip and as their mainstream is lower TDP and doesn't need it. I suspect that is all there is to it.

What worries me is the scaling of 22nm process shows where Intel is going and its not good for the desktop world.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
162
106
Well as far as I'm concerned the enthusiast line is officially dead & the only firm making even an effort to push for performance on the desktop is ~ believe it or not AMD with their 5 GHz FX Megalodon
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,547
2,138
146
@BrightCandle, from your post it seems you think solder is likely for IB-E, then?
 

MisterMac

Senior member
Sep 16, 2011
777
0
0
I think the OC'ing nature has been crippled by the heat density of tri-gate.

Not so much by the fluxless solder - those gates\xtors are designed for lower operation rather than higher operation.


By design they're "weak" at high clock speeds.


It would require another generation to 14nm for them to truly tweak the process to high frequencies.


Maybe IDC or similar could give a view
 
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