Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Really doesn't matter . Its done deal Intel can appeal . But crooks are going to rule the way they want. Lets behonest were talking about Europe here . LOL Look at history of europe LOL. Honesty isnot part of europes history . Check it out . LOL.
What natters is how intel deals with EU . For me its simple . Intel has to double pricies in EU . Inorder to afford doing business there. Question Is would AMD raise pricies in EU. If not EU orders would stop AMD from suppling other more important growing markets.
If I was Intel, I would announce the biggest Fab every being built in India/ China. After complete I would move operations out of west. THat would be the smart move. Borders don't matter anymore except were extorting Money from sound businessess and taxpayers is rule of the day ., Move east intel . Screw the west.
Awesome .. good news for AMD if intel doubles prices .. they will JUMP right in
intel is guilty .. three times in a row and soon a 4th
when will you guys wake up?
they make an awesome product but their ethics and moral sense is warped
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Really doesn't matter . Its done deal Intel can appeal . But crooks are going to rule the way they want. Lets behonest were talking about Europe here . LOL Look at history of europe LOL. Honesty isnot part of europes history . Check it out . LOL.
What natters is how intel deals with EU . For me its simple . Intel has to double pricies in EU . Inorder to afford doing business there. Question Is would AMD raise pricies in EU. If not EU orders would stop AMD from suppling other more important growing markets.
If I was Intel, I would announce the biggest Fab every being built in India/ China. After complete I would move operations out of west. THat would be the smart move. Borders don't matter anymore except were extorting Money from sound businessess and taxpayers is rule of the day ., Move east intel . Screw the west.
Awesome .. good news for AMD if intel doubles prices .. they will JUMP right in
intel is guilty .. three times in a row and soon a 4th
when will you guys wake up?
they make an awesome product but their ethics and moral sense is warped
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Really doesn't matter . Its done deal Intel can appeal . But crooks are going to rule the way they want. Lets behonest were talking about Europe here . LOL Look at history of europe LOL. Honesty isnot part of europes history . Check it out . LOL.
What natters is how intel deals with EU . For me its simple . Intel has to double pricies in EU . Inorder to afford doing business there. Question Is would AMD raise pricies in EU. If not EU orders would stop AMD from suppling other more important growing markets.
If I was Intel, I would announce the biggest Fab every being built in India/ China. After complete I would move operations out of west. THat would be the smart move. Borders don't matter anymore except were extorting Money from sound businessess and taxpayers is rule of the day ., Move east intel . Screw the west.
Awesome .. good news for AMD if intel doubles prices .. they will JUMP right in
intel is guilty .. three times in a row and soon a 4th
when will you guys wake up?
they make an awesome product but their ethics and moral sense is warped
You just don't get it do ya. Here let me spell it out. Intel has to change its pricing so amd can make a profit on there cpus. What % of market does AMD need to Make Money ?
They sure aren't now and there gaining market share. Yet loosing Money .
So here let me spell it out for ya. The EU is telling Intel to raise its pricies so AMD can raise theres so as to make money on low volumn sales compared to high volumn intel sells. I can afford what ever Intel ? AMD charge. But pricies are going up now . Or Intel will be fined again and again . Because AMD can't compete with present price structure. So intel has to raise pricies in EU or more finies. Or Intel can do what we know AMD is doing.
All amd fans will agree Ph11 is better tech than C2D. Intel should lower all c2D pricies to were they make 1 cent a chip. which is legeal.
Intel has to ans. This for all american companies in a meaningful way that shows consumers the lie which is AMD and its EU backers. My Ans . would be raise price to extreme . or lower price to extreme . Either will get point. I would lower make 1cent per chip . Than watch amd cry foul . When there are no rebates . Just very low pricies as intel threatened in there reply.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I would lower make 1cent per chip . Than watch amd cry foul . When there are no rebates . Just very low pricies as intel threatened in there reply.
The Story of a Great Monopoly
March 1881 Atlantic
"America has the proud satisfaction of having furnished the world with the greatest, wisest, and meanest monopoly known to history."
In less than the ordinary span of a life-time, our railroads have brought upon us the worst labor disturbance, the greatest of monopolies, and the most formidable combination of money and brains that ever overshadowed a state. The time has come to face the fact that the forces of capital and industry have outgrown the forces of our government.
The corporation and the trades-union have forgotten that they are the creatures of the state. Our strong men are engaged in a headlong fight for fortune, power, precedence, success. Americans as they are, they ride over the people like Juggernaut to gain their ends. The moralists have preached to them since the world began, and have failed. The common people, the nation, must take them in hand. The people can be successful only when they are right.
When monopolies succeed, the people fail; when a rich criminal escapes justice, the people are punished; when a legislature is bribed, the people are cheated. There is nobody richer than Vanderbilt except the body of citizens; no corporation more powerful than the transcontinental railroad except the corporate sovereign at Washington. The nation is the engine of the people. They must use it for their industrial life, as they used it in 1861 for their political life. The States have failed. The United States must succeed, or the people will perish.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/188103/monopoly
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The only US government that would do as you say is an Obama govenment . I agree Intels going to get hit hard here in USA. Like I said Intel has to move to the east west to corpute with little or no resources. Intel pulling out would just be another nail in coffin. But they may survive in the east . West isn't looking good for successful companies any more.
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I would lower make 1cent per chip . Than watch amd cry foul . When there are no rebates . Just very low pricies as intel threatened in there reply.
The last thing Intel needs to do at this point is anything that would further cement the conclusion that they (a) are a monopoly capable of single-handedly manipulating the market, and (b) are manipulating the market.
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I would lower make 1cent per chip . Than watch amd cry foul . When there are no rebates . Just very low pricies as intel threatened in there reply.
The last thing Intel needs to do at this point is anything that would further cement the conclusion that they (a) are a monopoly capable of single-handedly manipulating the market, and (b) are manipulating the market.
A part of me wants AMD to die off and for Intel to start (once again) charging $500 for processors simply because there's nobody else to buy from. At least then the pro monopoly people will understand why monopolies are bad. *cough* $300 Windows Vista Business *cough*
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't consider $500 CPU's or $300 OS's to be all that terrible TBH. There was a time in recent history when folks like you and me lived out their lives absolutely fine (and enjoyably too) without the need for a personal computer. They were productive, healthy, happy, entertained, etc.
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I would lower make 1cent per chip . Than watch amd cry foul . When there are no rebates . Just very low pricies as intel threatened in there reply.
The last thing Intel needs to do at this point is anything that would further cement the conclusion that they (a) are a monopoly capable of single-handedly manipulating the market, and (b) are manipulating the market.
This isn't a situation where being a monopoly and abusing your power as such suddenly becomes an ignorable offense if it benefits the consumer in the short-term but further decimates the competition.
This is a worthy read, despite having been penned in 1881:
The Story of a Great Monopoly
March 1881 Atlantic
"America has the proud satisfaction of having furnished the world with the greatest, wisest, and meanest monopoly known to history."
In less than the ordinary span of a life-time, our railroads have brought upon us the worst labor disturbance, the greatest of monopolies, and the most formidable combination of money and brains that ever overshadowed a state. The time has come to face the fact that the forces of capital and industry have outgrown the forces of our government.
The corporation and the trades-union have forgotten that they are the creatures of the state. Our strong men are engaged in a headlong fight for fortune, power, precedence, success. Americans as they are, they ride over the people like Juggernaut to gain their ends. The moralists have preached to them since the world began, and have failed. The common people, the nation, must take them in hand. The people can be successful only when they are right.
When monopolies succeed, the people fail; when a rich criminal escapes justice, the people are punished; when a legislature is bribed, the people are cheated. There is nobody richer than Vanderbilt except the body of citizens; no corporation more powerful than the transcontinental railroad except the corporate sovereign at Washington. The nation is the engine of the people. They must use it for their industrial life, as they used it in 1861 for their political life. The States have failed. The United States must succeed, or the people will perish.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/188103/monopoly
I find it ironic that in their time, 1881, the advent of the corporate railroad and the formation of their devastating monopolies occurred with the span of 30-40yrs. Approximately the same span of time since the advent of the personal computer, the monopolies for which we are discussing now.
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Originally posted by: Idontcare
I don't consider $500 CPU's or $300 OS's to be all that terrible TBH. There was a time in recent history when folks like you and me lived out their lives absolutely fine (and enjoyably too) without the need for a personal computer. They were productive, healthy, happy, entertained, etc.
What? No they weren't. In the 1970s, engineering firms like the one my dad works for had almost 1 secretary per engineer because that's how much effort it took to do all of the paper work. Since computers, his office has no secretary. People can do their own office work because forwarding an email to 30 people take maybe 1 minute whereas making 30 paper copies and running across several floors takes at least an hour.
They also had a bunch of clerks to deal with paper copies of blueprints. That's all electronic now, so there's no need for those people. An engineering staff of 10 today with computers and AutoCAD can do the work of 100 people from 1970 because we don't need armies of clerks and secretaries.
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
It should also be noted that it's damn near impossible to apply for a job if you don't have a computer. Even when I applied to work at Best Buy (virtually a minimum wage job), they said the only way to apply is online. If you don't have a computer, tough shit. No job for you.
Another one is scholarships. My university only does online applications. You can't submit paper forms because they simply don't exist.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The only US government that would do as you say is an Obama govenment . I agree Intels going to get hit hard here in USA. Like I said Intel has to move to the east west to corpute with little or no resources. Intel pulling out would just be another nail in coffin. But they may survive in the east . West isn't looking good for successful companies any more.
America voted for change. Evidently they got sick of corporate abuses encouraged by the last administration
if intel needs to MOVE East - to leave the land of the free that gave them birth - just to continue with their corrupt and twisted monopolistic and predatory business practices, they will become 3rd world themselves - and good riddance to them
But it will never happen. They will change their direction and compete more fairly or i expect some of their board may face prison.
The future looks great for my own company; i intend to compete ethically - or i won't compete at all
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hay idontcare ya know your talking about a period in time were the USA was still commenting geneciad on native Americans. I wouldn't point at law of that period to prove intelect. Surely they lacked all true Trueth and understanding.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I monoply can only cause harm if they sell below cost . Selling at 1 cent profit is legeal in the USA . Just because another company cann't match that price and be profitable doesn't mean company A did wrong . Just shows better company .
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Every year, The women in EU committy . Made my dog roll over and die . She so pittyful looking the empty glossy eyes devoid of humanity.
You are rightOriginally posted by: Nemesis 1
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The only US government that would do as you say is an Obama govenment . I agree Intels going to get hit hard here in USA. Like I said Intel has to move to the east west to corpute with little or no resources. Intel pulling out would just be another nail in coffin. But they may survive in the east . West isn't looking good for successful companies any more.
America voted for change. Evidently they got sick of corporate abuses encouraged by the last administration
if intel needs to MOVE East - to leave the land of the free that gave them birth - just to continue with their corrupt and twisted monopolistic and predatory business practices, they will become 3rd world themselves - and good riddance to them
But it will never happen. They will change their direction and compete more fairly or i expect some of their board may face prison.
The future looks great for my own company; i intend to compete ethically - or i won't compete at all
Give me a break on the land of free and home of brave Bs. It not bravery that pits a man against another if he is armed with Gun and other has bow and arrow. Thats not bravery its more cowardness. Free not hardly . Live without paying taxes you have NO choice but to pay for that which should be free. Can't you guys feel the change coming all talk about . I am more sensitive than most . I feel it as plane as day and night. Its a change but those who want everthing without doing anything are about to reap what they deserve.
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hay idontcare ya know your talking about a period in time were the USA was still commenting geneciad on native Americans. I wouldn't point at law of that period to prove intelect. Surely they lacked all true Trueth and understanding.
A bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater there are ya?
Yeah, some people were of that mindset so sure lets paint the entirety of US humanity with the same broad brush.
Of course that would beg the question how did change come about, after all we are not the same culture today that you paint us as having been in 1881...so some people in 1881 must have worked to change the america that was into the america that is, yes?
And maybe some of those people communicated this desire to see a better america by way of being journalists, and oh I don't know, maybe they wrote an article or two for a two-bit rag called The Atlantic, and perhaps on occasion the topic wandered to that of monopolies...maybe? bah, wild speculation on my behalf, I digress.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I monoply can only cause harm if they sell below cost . Selling at 1 cent profit is legeal in the USA . Just because another company cann't match that price and be profitable doesn't mean company A did wrong . Just shows better company .
You are skipping a wee bit of the relevant stuff we laypeople refer to as "cause and effect", are you not?
To what end would a publicly held company be needlessly selling their product at near break-even costs? What argument is held out to the shareholder that this is a wise and fiducially responsible manner to operate the business?
And once the competition is put out of business, solidifying the monopoly, what manner of argument do the decision makers take to their shareholders as the reasoning for not doing whatever they can to maximize profits? To not maximize profits would be fiducially irresponsible.
The cause and effect here is that selling at cost while being a behemoth that can produce products at lower cost (volume production) simply to run the competition out of business (or incapacitate them in some manner of their efforts to innovate) will undoubtedly and inevitably be followed by increasing profit margins for the behemoth...hence their motivation for doing it after all.
So what is the effect? At worst it means elevated prices, at best it means a deceleration in the rate of decline in prices for the consumer.
I feel like Steve Martin in The Pink Panther...you have the jig, but no saw. You can't present the case to the judge with having both the jig and the saw, you haven't solved the puzzle yet.
You have to put together the cause and effect, the problem with monopolies is the effect, the challenge is to prevent the effect by intersecting the monopoly at the cause.
The whole point of a monopoly engaging in the cause (selling at cost in your example) is to get its shareholders to the promised land of the effect (untold fortunes of maximizing profits without the nagging headache of competition).
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Every year, The women in EU committy . Made my dog roll over and die . She so pittyful looking the empty glossy eyes devoid of humanity.
What?
You had great things in the 1970s, but it took several times as much effort as it does now. The tremendous increase in efficiency caused by computers is why our standard of living is so high today. Old people like to talk about today's money being worthless and how pie was only a nickel, but we seem to forget that our time is much more valuable now than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. Working for 1 hour at minimum wage (that's about $8.50 where I live) is enough to buy 20 pairs of socks or a t-shirt. 1-2 years of work at McDonalds (pre-tax) is enough to buy a new car that has 140hp, gets almost 40mpg, has heat, AC, power windows, power locks, remote starter, and a 6-speaker stereo. Never in history has that been true. Computers are greatly responsible for why my time, even if it's just for $8.50, is worth a lot. If we went back to the pre-computer era of the 1970s, that same 1-2 years of McDonalds work might buy a new car that has 70hp, maybe 30mpg, no power windows, no power locks, no AC, no remote starter, maybe a 2-speaker AM radio.Originally posted by: Idontcare
And yet despite all their lack of productiveness they managed to land men on the moon, create the automobile and some 70+ yrs (at that time) of refinements, nuclear powered reactors, nuclear missiles, nuclear powered submarines, the airplane and aerospace industry, satellite communications, microwave ovens, television, jet fighters, lasers, plastic, solar cells, etc etc etc.
Believe it or not there was a civilized and productive world in existence prior to the advent of the personal computer and the ipod.
I'm not as old as you but I'm pretty sure burger flipping was always a loser job. My mom worked for A&W in the 1960s, then she eventually graduated high school and got a real job. There's nothing bullshit about having a job, but that stigma about fast food being a place for high school students to work has been around for many decades.All those jobs that once existed had to be created elsewhere lest we have 50% unemployment. The very concept of "flipping burgers for minimum wage" is a creation of our tech-driven civilization. (which I would not trade for the world personally as with my education I get to be one of the beneficiaries of our progress, the folks working at best buy and bed bath & beyond not so much)
You're right about universities having computers, but a lot of people don't live in the same city as their university. I'm currently an engineering student and quite a few of my classmates are from rural areas. Classes ended at the beginning of April, and at least half of the people I associated with moved back home to their farm or small town. Final marks are officially posted about a month after exams, and the only way to know they are posted is to check online. If you don't have access to internet, you can't check what they are or if they were posted yet.At any rate the need for internet access does not require one to have a personal computer and internet access from home. It is a convenience, but not the only way to get access.
Unless your university is a rarity they will have computer kiosks available for accessing the internet as well as an intranet for accessing their online forms. And ironically enough you can use the floor-model computers inside best buy for internet access and fill out your application while inside the store. Again not as convenient as doing it from the comfort of your own home, but not doing it from your own home does not mean it can't be done.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Look at size AMD . Compare to Intel , At 23% market share AMD is losing Money . Intelis makinf money at 78% . Intel is 10X bigger than AMD . Yet AMD can't turn a profit . Whereas Intel Can . The numbers don't lie the math is true.
This whole case should have been based off of manufactoring capicity math . If done this way . The LIE sticks out like sore thumd. Just like link I showed from donnie27. That shown in 2000 and 2001 AMD couldn't meet fabs efficiency . AMD sold ever chip they could Make. There is more cases of same exact story . Now when AMD 64 .came out . we all know AMD sold every chip they could make. Every one until C2D was released.
Now that Covers 4 years of the 7 the EU is talkinfg about . You want links from missing years I get them . Know this is AN EU /AMD lie . and simple math is only requirement needed to prove intels case. AMDs own reports report there problems. In 2001. Full capacity AMD ran at they did . Where were these additional chips AMD could sell come from thin air. I can get reports for every year up to AMD 64. Its the same story all the way threw. AMD can't meet expectations . Any who say AMD wasn't running at max capicity durring AMD 64 run is a liar. We all know they had no further capicity But did't make deal with outside fab until it was to late . All lies that can be proved yearly by AMDs own reports . Every year, The women in EU committy . Made my dog roll over and die . She so pittyful looking the empty glossy eyes devoid of humanity.
Originally posted by: dmens
Let's hear it for saint apoppin, the moral compass of anandtech. He is backed by the EU anti-trust commission, whose decisions are always just because... well, they're the fucking EU commission! Government bodies always have the moral high ground over evil monopolies (unless they are backed by government).
Everybody should follow his sagely advice to restore fairness to the world. Amen.
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: apoppin
do their employees share intel's lack of ethics?
i am beginning to think so
your sense of ethics is sick and perverse to me because unlike you, i believe property rights are absolute and universal. you can keep posting those little roses and put "criminal" in big bold stars and rant about your subjective notion of "fairness" and "real justice", knock yourself out, i won't be responding to you any more. have a nice day.
Originally posted by: apoppin
My argument is backed by the courts of the World .. 1) South Korea, 2) Japan, 3) Europe [many nations] and soon, intel's home own country will send another strong message to your predatory company - perhaps by putting some of intel's senior board in prison.