Intel has been dubbed EVIL

[dmens]

^

i was making a statement, not responding to you. don't flatter yourself.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dmens
^

i was making a statement, not responding to you. don't flatter yourself.

So who is the "you" that you are not responding to now?
:roll:

it is pretty clear that you are brainwashed by your handlers.
- you deny reality

Originally posted by: dmens
Let's hear it for saint apoppin, the moral compass of anandtech. He is backed by the EU anti-trust commission, whose decisions are always just because... well, they're the fucking EU commission! Government bodies always have the moral high ground over evil monopolies (unless they are backed by government).

Everybody should follow his sagely advice to restore fairness to the world. Amen.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: JFAMD
There are a few facts that seem to get lost in this thread:

1. Monopolies are not illegal, but using monopoly power to keep others out of the market is illegal

2. This is not an isolated action, this is the third. Japan, South Korea and then Europe. Intel is 0 for 3. Tens of thousands of documents, hundreds of thousands of hours of work.

3. These investigations have been going on for several years, and Intel has had plenty of opportunity to provide information that would clear them. However, in all cases they have lost.

4. Intel executives have defended their actions by saying "consumers have not been hurt"; notice that they don't seem to be saying the charges against them are not true, just that they perceive no harm done. Like saying "I know I shouldn't have fired the gun in a crowded theater, but look, I didn't hit anyone."

When it happens once, you can question the motivation. When it happens twice, you start to see more. However, the third time, it becomes pretty clear that there is something to it.

Where there is smoke there is fire

double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
That is a nice way of making some money during a recession

Yes, let's take a good America based company and fine them 15% of their cash reserves. How about Intel just pulls all Intel products from the shelves in the EU instead? While we're at it, let's pull all Microsoft licenses at the same time.

Yes, do illegal things and not get punished. Typical response from majority of people who are clueless on what happened.

No matter what spin you put on it, Intel did some very illegal activities back in the day. I disagree with the EU receiving the money as it should be going back to the consumers or AMD.

I think you mistook my post. I'm also mad that the EU is getting the money. Intel is not faultless and it has been proven time and time again that their past tactics were anti-competitive. What good does it do the situation to pad the EU regulator's bankbook though? It doesn't help the already effected companies in the least. It might make their futures better, but that's assuming the anti-competitive tactics don't run the small fry into the ground before that future comes about.

I would love to see the backlash from EU companies against the EU commission, if all of a sudden they could not use MS or Intel products however.

That would never happen. You have no idea how much money is earned in the EU by Intel and microsoft. If in a hypothetical situation Intel would leave, AMD would step in or any other company. And if in the same situation microsoft decides to leave the EU, Linux would become huge and patent rights well, no microsoft products here. What do you think the U.S. companies would think of it when they loose the EU as market. We are too entangled for such a situation to happen. We and i mean all of us around the globe, are a world economy. If you like it or not.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: taltamir

double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

*ONE CRIME*
:Q

How about a PATTERN of crimes, scheming and dirty business dealings - over many years ?
==S. Korea .. Japan .. Europe is many nations .. and the USA

the fine should be a lot bigger in the USA
- i still don't think Intel will figure it out until perhaps some of their board faces prison

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

 

[nyker96]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
That is a nice way of making some money during a recession

only if the guy getting fined can pay up. well in this case, jackpot!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

So .. isn't that beside the point?

Are both intel and tobacco innocent?

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: Kuzi
Since Intel was found guilty, and AMD lost sales (money) and market share because of those illegal practices, why doesn't AMD get all or part of the fine? I mean, it was AMD that sued Intel in the first place. AMD was the company that got harmed. This huge fine all going to the EU doesn't make sense to me.

I agree but there is a problem with that. If AMD would get the money, a lot of companies would start to get idea's on how to make money : start a anticompetitive lawsuit.

In my opinion, In a true free market without ethics Intel did nothing wrong. They just made a deal with the resellers that Intel would sell there chips cheaper if they would be the only source of x86 compatible chips.

But i do not like true free market's without ethics. Because in the end 1 person is very rich and everybody else is poor. To be honest, I think the resellers and OEM's that went along with Intel should be sue'd and fined as well. Because all of that discount Intel gave them was not reflected in the prices the customers had to pay in the end. Think about that.
But AMD would never sue the resellers or OEM's like DELL if i remember correctly cause who would then buy AMD processors and chipsets in large quantities ? right. AMD had no choice then to go to the EU court. In the US nobody would have listened to them.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: zerogear

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
That is a nice way of making some money during a recession

Yes, let's take a good America based company and fine them 15% of their cash reserves. How about Intel just pulls all Intel products from the shelves in the EU instead? While we're at it, let's pull all Microsoft licenses at the same time.

Yes, do illegal things and not get punished. Typical response from majority of people who are clueless on what happened.

No matter what spin you put on it, Intel did some very illegal activities back in the day. I disagree with the EU receiving the money as it should be going back to the consumers or AMD.

I think you mistook my post. I'm also mad that the EU is getting the money. Intel is not faultless and it has been proven time and time again that their past tactics were anti-competitive. What good does it do the situation to pad the EU regulator's bankbook though? It doesn't help the already effected companies in the least. It might make their futures better, but that's assuming the anti-competitive tactics don't run the small fry into the ground before that future comes about.

I would love to see the backlash from EU companies against the EU commission, if all of a sudden they could not use MS or Intel products however.

I think the Microsoft situation was a little different. It was about Internet Explorer and/or Windows Media Player being installed? Kinda silly I think - it's really easy to install a competitor's product.

With Intel, if you buy a machine based on their processor, it's not easy to switch to AMD. Hence, the anti-competitive practices on AMD should be dealt with rather harshly.

For the fine, what does it go towards? Some blanket EU bank account?

I've always wondered, if they did remove IE, for example from Windows, how would people get other browsers?

Same way as always. New sold pc systems are always bundled with third party software.
And most of the time a pre-installed version ready to use windows. A third party browser would not be a problem. In this case that would have been opera, firefox or safari maybe ? A windows port of Konqueror perhaps ? My point is that it does not matter if windows would not have IE pre-installed. Because most pc systems sold have extra third party software pre-installed and pre-installing a third party browser would not be an issue.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

So .. isn't that beside the point?

Are both intel and tobacco innocent?

you are the only one who says that in an attempt to belittle and discredit us. we have always discussed the issue of the punishment being an unethical money grab that does not benefit the victims (amd and the consumers... I don't see AMD getting a cent of that money, nor do I see any reduction in patents allowing new competition)...

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

So .. isn't that beside the point?

Are both intel and tobacco innocent?

Of course its beside the point, which is why I opened with "Reminds me of the..." versus opening with "I think the point here is...".

However for folks wondering why the fines are so small and questioning whether this magnitude of a fine will really serve as a deterrent against future business activity, the utility of assessing past actions of government can be leveraged to provide some insight.

Neither are innocent, but to expect our governments to be here to help "us" is a tad naive as well. Elected/appointed officials have one thing on their mind - getting re-elected and re-appointed so their personal cashflow from the system remains uninterrupted. It is to be human after all.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

this is exactly what is happening again... the victims aren't being helped, the situation isn't made better... take a few patents and require intel to pay some compensation to the companies it specifically hindered
aka, if intel paid dell to not sell AMD components, than intel and dell should pay AMD an estimation of the value of lost sales... because even if you think its not morally wrong it was clearly illegal to do so.
And the ideal way to break the monopoly is to declare all computer hardware patents to last only 3 years (or maybe 2)...

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: bgeh

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: bgeh
aigo: The EU represents 30% of global CPU sales, so you're not too right either http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30717099/

30% vs. 70%

compared to closing a division vs paying 1.45 Billion US dollars.

Which path do you think intel will look at expecially with today's slumming market?

There not gonna pay 1 billion... half that ammount maybe.. but 1.45 Billion, i highly doubt it.

Have you forgotten about Asia? Africa? Latin America? Asia's pretty big too you know......

I may have no figures about the regional marketshare but I'd argue that the EU would be comparable to the US in terms of global chip sales, if not slightly larger.

I would very much like to see Intel give up the EU. I would also like very much to see AMD supply the EU and the rest of the world with present fabs .

I would very much like to see AMD alone in the EU as only supplier . WE all know where those pricies would go . Than the EU would have what It wants. A profitable AMD at expense of tax payer. The EU is a dead stagnit market . With everthing moving east . They have know resorces other than what they steal from Africia. And Chinias about to stop that thanks to Obama. You might say Obama is between a rock and a hard place on this issue. LOL. FREE AFRICIA. FROM Imperalist EU. Its happening . You bloodsuckers are threw.

You seem to be mis-informed. And how old are you exactly ?

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: craftech
If you read my first post you would see that I was referring to the most popular form of news delivery for the US population. The television "news" networks. Those who read online and in print are better informed sometimes, but that isn't the average American.

Comparing the content of high quality networks like the BBC or Al Jazeera television news to American television "news" is like comparing Albert Einstein to Joe the Plumber.

John

Typical, you ignore the fact that the US media offers a vast and diverse set of viewpoints, as opposed to the government regulated and almost monopolized media offerings in Europe. Focusing on the trashy tabloid news networks and saying they constitute the US media is basically saying The Sun represents British media because it is the most popular.

BBC is high quality? Is this the same network whose ombudsman openly admitted has a serious leftist bias issue but is powerless to do anything about it? Or Al Jazzera, which runs a separate Middle East broadcast overrun with racist demagoguery?

The sad thing is people are forced to watch that garbage with no alternative. In the US, people can just change the channel, or buy a better newspaper.

Simple minded airhead...

In europe we do have multiple news stations you know. We can even watch new and read news paper form other countries in the EU and even from the whole world. Just to compare news and find out if news is biased. We have more then 2 choices. True freedom. If you would actually do research you would know this and you would know that it is possible in the US as well.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1

Originally posted by: Martimus
I can't imagine either of these things happening. I would like it to happen on the software side, since MS has such a debilitating monopoly that no-one seems able to butt their way into that market, even though it should be an easy market to get into (it doesn't require a lot of starting capital, requires mostly just development costs, and has a very high profit margin; obviously something is not right if MS has no real competition in that field.)

An operating system requires a huge amount of hardware support. Linux has been around for more than 10 years and it still has horrible support for a lot of things.

A complete new market the size of the EU would change that quickly if microsoft decided to pull out of the EU. Linux does not ensure income at the moment when compared with windows. If there would be no windows and there is demand for better drivers under linux in a market the size of the EU then those drivers would rapidly appear.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir
double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take. and keep in mind that handling 30b a year is not the same as 30b a year in profits. They have very high expenses... taxes, factories, employees, etc...

Reminds me of the rush by the states in the late 90's to pile on the lawsuits of tobacco companies for harming all the citizens.

It was truly simply a money grab, zero moral or ethical motivation by the states to actually end the damages occurring to the citizens.

They just wanted another source of revenue enhancement.

It's kind of embarrassing/disgusting actually if you research the history of the state's arguments against big tobacco versus what the state's actually did with the settlement monies.

this is exactly what is happening again... the victims aren't being helped, the situation isn't made better... take a few patents and require intel to pay some compensation to the companies it specifically hindered
aka, if intel paid dell to not sell AMD components, than intel and dell should pay AMD an estimation of the value of lost sales... because even if you think its not morally wrong it was clearly illegal to do so.
And the ideal way to break the monopoly is to declare all computer hardware patents to last only 3 years (or maybe 2)...

it sounds like you don't have a clue what intel - or big tobacco was doing - for years
- a Fine is a punishment in lieu of JAIL - how government misappropriates *everything* is another issue

Both Intel and Big tobacco DESERVE *bigger* fines

Neither are innocent, but to expect our governments to be here to help "us" is a tad naive as well. Elected/appointed officials have one thing on their mind - getting re-elected and re-appointed so their personal cashflow from the system remains uninterrupted. It is to be human after all.

again ,, what the government actually DOES with the fine, is irrelevant

Intel BROKE the LAW!
=a serious *pattern* of ABUSE

fine or jail .. ?
- a fine serves the purpose - better - IF the Intel board stops their unethical and immoral predatory pattern of behavior

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: apoppin
fine or jail .. ?
- a fine serves the purpose - better - IF the Intel board stops their unethical and immoral predatory pattern of behavior

And what does history tell you regarding the effectiveness of one method versus the other in matters of the situation we are discussing?

 

[Silverbuckle]

Pricing all the traffic will bear is a time honored practice. How do you think the markups are decided?

It's also important to look at Intel's strategy for upgrades vs AMD. It seems that AMD has stumbled more than it should have. In a rush, perhaps?

Intel and MS. The evil twins. Get a Mac!

Ooops! Mac is already there. Halfway into the evil column.....

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: apoppin
fine or jail .. ?
- a fine serves the purpose - better - IF the Intel board stops their unethical and immoral predatory pattern of behavior

And what does history tell you regarding the effectiveness of one method versus the other in matters of the situation we are discussing?

it depends on the company being fined

Big Tobacco has no redeeming features to their evil shit product; they sell poison and death
:thumbsdown:

otoh, Intel has a choice. i still love their HW - it isn't like i am going to toss my q9550s into the trashcan
- it isn't tainted .. but their choices have been reprehensible and i will consider AMD for my next system [i *always* ran intel; my first AMD system was THIS last month - a notebook PC; i built plenty for friends and relatives but never had an AMD CPU or MB]

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: apoppin
fine or jail .. ?
- a fine serves the purpose - better - IF the Intel board stops their unethical and immoral predatory pattern of behavior

And what does history tell you regarding the effectiveness of one method versus the other in matters of the situation we are discussing?

it tells me that a fine is ineffective (look up the ram cartelS, plural, because every time they are fined and they keep on doing it). Jail is quite effective, but not appropriate for such a crime.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: apoppin
it is pretty clear that you are brainwashed by your handlers.
- you deny reality

leftist arrogance = anyone who disagrees is bought by corporations, fascists, whatever. only aligned thoughts are legitimate and independent. :roll:

there's no point arguing with people like you. if your morals are so valued, you'd abstain from buying intel processors.

here's another reason for you to boycott intel processors. i worked on them, and im pure fucking evil lol. better stay away.

 

[bgeh]

How many ram cartels exactly have we had in history in the last, 20 years or so? I only remember multiple companies being fined at different dates as they pleaded guilty one by one, but they were all acting as one single ram cartel at the time (approximately 2002 or so) ...

If there's only one we can't really claim that fines are ineffective can we?

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Martimus
Please refrain from the pseudo political BS being spouted. It is tiresome, useless, and usually reflects poorly on you no matter what stance you take; since it is usually driven by emotion and not logic.

Some members with whom I had respected their opinion have lost that respect due to this one thread and the pointless emotion being spewed. Others I had no opinion on I have learned to ignore here, while the usual suspects continued to spout useless things that I will ignore anyway.

Martimus normally this would be a pm but I felt in this particular context it might be of greater benefit for the comments to be available for others to contemplate as well.

I would not want for you or anyone else to jump to conclusions and render judgement too quickly in a thread like this regarding your perceptions of the other party's personality and qualities of opinion.

Consider that in order for you to render judgement like that you are (a) assuming the other party adequately and completely communicated their point of view in the otherwise brief posting they made on the subject, and (b) assuming you fully and correctly interpreted what it was the other party was attempting to communicate in their otherwise distilled and compact statements in their post.

Its easy to convince ourselves we know what the other person is saying, or meant to say, or wants to say, etc. It's also easy to convince ourselves the other person said exactly what they meant to say.

All I am saying is that if you happen to wander into what is assured to be a passion-generating thread like this one, you are really doing yourself a disservice if you allow the one-liners and the zingers to materially influence your perception of the integrity of the posters.

No one here is really afforded the luxury of having the time and prose necessary to fully and exhaustively communicate our point of view on the subject matter.

All we get to see are really just condensed and distilled versions thereof, scrambled by piss poor grammar and utter lack of educated prose. Don't hold it against us, I promise to do my best to not hold it against you either

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: dmens
i worked on them, and im pure fucking evil lol. better stay away.

I knew it! See now doesn't it feel better to get that off your chest?

Now the process of healing can begin :laugh: