Intel has been dubbed EVIL

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: dmens
Firstly, I do not price pressure to be a form of coercion. Secondly, a coercive monopoly is a firm that faces no price competition, but in this case, there is obvious price competition. Lastly, coercive monopolies are usually enforced by government, again that is not the case here.

Coercive monopoly is when a business that can use its position in a market to effect its overall state. Just because there is competition does not preclude this ability.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Schmide
Coercive monopoly is when a business that can use it's position in a market to effect it's overall state. Just because there is competition does not preclude this ability.

I understand the term as a firm in a market where there is no price competition. I do not understand how you arrived at your definition. Also, define "effect on it's overall state". That sounds extremely broad and could well cover a wide range of legal activities.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: dmens
So an undocumented rebate is bribery? What if the rebate be folded into the pricing scheme as a volume discount? Is that still bribery?

I'm not saying it is bribery and that is not the crux of this issue. The issue is did Intel design these volume discounts to force exclusive purchase of its product and more did they retract said discounts if said exclusivity was not met.

Originally posted by: dmens
Also, should I go sue Coca-Cola because I can't get a pepsi at McDonald's? Because they carry Coca-Cola exclusively.

If pepsi is forced out of a market through pressure pricing by Coca-Cola it is their right to sue. You as a consumer have no right to sue.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Schmide
I'm not saying it is bribery and that is not the crux of this issue. The issue is did Intel design these volume discounts to force exclusive purchase of it's product and more did they retract said discounts if said exclusivity was not met.

And that is illegal how? Seems like a legitimate contract to me. Exclusivity does not come free. The soda example is no different.

If pepsi is forced out of a market through pressure pricing by Coca-Cola it is their right to sue. You as a consumer have no right to sue.

Again, do companies have a right not to fail due to price pressure? Similarly, don't companies have a right to displace competitors with aggressive pricing?

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: dmens
I understand the term as a firm in a market where there is no price competition. I do not understand how you arrived at your definition. Also, define "effect on it's overall state". That sounds extremely broad and could well cover a wide range of legal activities.

How I defined it and its actual definition and variance are two different things. The concept is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. If a dominate entity uses it pricing power to keep competition artificially low to prevent being seen as a monopoly, it may still be seen as or acting like a Coercive monopoly.

Is this the exactly correct term for Intel in this case. I'm not qualified to say.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: Schmide
I'm not saying it is bribery and that is not the crux of this issue. The issue is did Intel design these volume discounts to force exclusive purchase of it's product and more did they retract said discounts if said exclusivity was not met.

And that is illegal how? Seems like a legitimate contract to me. Exclusivity does not come free. The soda example is no different.

How it seems to you and actual law are very different. As for the soda example, if one soda goes to a store and adjusts its prices to force a competitor out of the market. Using cash reserves to set prices artificially below what a competitor could match. Requiring exclusivity, etc. Threatening to pull its product or set the price to an artificially high level. It is illegal. It is not one cut and dry act, but the totality of many actions to artificially manipulate the market.

I don't expect you to agree with it and for the most part I'm not qualified to fully explain it but I do believe it is a necessary law to allow the proper balance of a pseudo capitalist system. The capitalist system we have.

 

[Keysplayr]

Arguing the subject matter is fine. But keep it civil guys. I see things getting a bit personal over the last few pages. - Anandtech Moderator - Keysplayr

 

[JFAMD]

Originally posted by: taltamir

double jeoperdy... one crime, a rush of countries rushing in for a slice of the pie, each one giving more ridiculously high fines to take while there is still something to take.

No, I disagree. Each of the trade organizaitons only has jurisdiction over things that happened in their geographic region. For example, the EU focused on Media Markt (Saturn), not Best buy...

And, to say "one crime" are you neglecting that the EU charges were focused on one retailer and multiple OEMs, so there were many crimes, all of which fit a pattern.

 

[JFAMD]

Originally posted by: William Gaatjes

I agree but there is a problem with that. If AMD would get the money, a lot of companies would start to get idea's on how to make money : start a anticompetitive lawsuit.

Bad business model. These suits are very expensive to start, and, it's not starting the lawsuit, it's WINNING the lawsuit. And the bigger companies always have more lawyers than you.

You would need to spend a LOT of money and be prepared to do it over many years. The Intel investigations began in 2001, and they are just now getting hit in the EU. Plus they will appeal.

When AMD brought suit it was probably not about making money, it was about exposing the illegal practices to the world and getting them to stop.

 

[2March]

nvm

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: Schmide
Way to cage your arguments to suit your case. Since I assume you got it from here look at the broader definition for business.

Is rebate pricing considered bribery now? Is Coca-Cola or Pepsico guilty of bribing McDonalds and Yum respectively? Better go after them too. Many businesses use this kind of pricing scheme, I don't see how it is illegal in any way.

While blackmail and extortion may or may not directly relate to this case, the broader terms to why business should be protected from such acts still apply. Economic coercion would be the more appropriate term for the Intel case.

Is the CPU market a non-contestable market? I do not believe so. Therefore there is no coercive monopoly and your claim of economic coercion is in reality price competition.

Again your case is lacking, for the burden of proof to overturn (rewrite) a law rests on the plaintiff.

Yeah well, I'm not trying to change the law, I'm just arguing it is unfair.

Who cares what your or Intel *thinks* ?
- criminal thinking

if the law IS unfair, work to change it. i don't see Coca-Cola or Pepsi getting sued and losing in 3 Court of law in a row and then whining about unfairness like that cry-baby monopoly of yours

those idiots running your senior board that deliberately broke the law should be held responsible by the stockholders and fired - at the very least. Or is the board working at giving them bonuses?
:roll:

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: Schmide
Rebate pricing is not bribery. However, if said rebate is undocumented it becomes a kickback and then would be bribery. Moreover, if such rebate is designed to be specifically relative to the total consumption of a client such that it forces near exclusivity, it becomes a coercive monopoly practice.

So an undocumented rebate is bribery? What if the rebate be folded into the pricing scheme as a volume discount? Is that still bribery?

When were people complaining about normal volume discounts? Typical volume discounts still price incremental units above cost, so a competitor could compete for those incremental units. Examples in this thread are rebates that effectively start selling incremental units below costs, used by a large company with market dominance to force a small company out of the market. If you need a reminder, see paragraphs 59-71 here. I found this commentary interesting.

You never really answered the bribery question. Would it have been OK for Intel to pay a few million dollars to CEOs & board members of Dell, HP, MediaMarkt, and BestBuy to get them to sell fewer competing processors, thereby ensuring billions of dollars of additional revenue because in practice most people buy PCs from those sources?

 

[Nemesis 1]

History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

 

[bgeh]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

Actually it's quite easy for libertarians of Nemesis' sort. Move to Somalia

 

[Nemesis 1]

Ya want to Know the insanity of EU. Look at Prince Charles coat of ARMs . Now If you can read what is says and many can. Its all smybolic code. Well known among europeans. This MAD man Thinks he is the Beast of scripture. They are Insane. He isn't even a scab on my ass . Let alone the Beast. He would last no more than 1 min. against me . One on One. He is just Criminal aspiring to be the greast of all Criminals. He is INSANE!

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

Thjats all well in Good . But don't forget We have God given laws. Even tho were really not allowed to pass judgement. We can remove such people from our communities. So they can't Stay it . Than they Are Given CHOICE to stay away or instant Death if they choose to come back . NO judge no jury. Just choice and Living within community or out of it. It really is that simple . Gods laws are not etched on stone tablets. They are etched into your mind heart and spirit. You choose whether to do right from wrong. Mans laws only serve to make gray. When there is infact NO Gray. It Black and White . No in between. The WOrd again said of luke warm water. I spit it out because its neither Cold or Hot. The Word Actually Says BLack Is > than Gray . White is > than Gray. Gray is PURE EVIL. Designed to mislead. Black / White is simple . Gray is were problem is. Gray is Man removing choice. Don't believe because man law has No authority . That there is NO authority . That Authority rest in each and every one of us. But we have to make CHOICE! To achieve enlightenment . their is no other way. There are no short cuts. You have to become aware of your own Authority that GOD gave you. No man can take that from you, who is not evil.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

Thjats all well in Good . But don't forget We have God given laws. Even tho were really not allowed to pass judgement. We can remove such people from our communities. So they can't Stay it . Than they Are Given CHOICE to stay away or instant Death if they choose to come back . NO judge no jury. Just choice and Living within community or out of it. It really is that simple . Gods laws are not etched on stone tablets. They are etched into your mind heart and spirit. You choose whether to do right from wrong. Mans laws only serve to make gray. When there is infact NO Gray. It Black and White . No in between. The WOrd again said of luke warm water. I spit it out because its neither Cold or Hot. The Word Actually Says BLack Is > than Gray . White is > than Gray. Gray is PURE EVIL. Designed to mislead. Black / White is simple . Gray is were problem is. Gray is Man removing choice. Don't believe because man law has No authority . That there is NO authority . That Authority rest in each and every one of us. But we have to make CHOICE! To achieve enlightenment . their is no other way. There are no short cuts. You have to become aware of your own Authority that GOD gave you. No man can take that from you that is not evil.

Your god is dead.

Can we please get back to the topic instead of insane anarchy rants ?

If each business chose to act irresponsibly - like intel; and each person lived like the poster i am addressing suggests, then civilization is indeed over.

The human animal has demonstrated they are unable to live without laws. They are clearly not in touch with any reality nevemind any built-in instincts of "fairness" - except survival and reproduction. What distinguishes humans from animals is their willingness to live in a society and to protect the weak.

Predators like intel's senior board eat the weak and harm all of us by their schemes

 

[Nemesis 1]

We are on topic and your misguided use of the word justice. Plan fact . YOU right now . Prove to Me . Not world . That AMD ever had capacity for Intel to have done what is claimed. YOU prove AMD ever had capicity Befor C2D to supply 30% market. PROVE IT. When did AMD go to 300wafer? You can't because AMD never could produce more. Until After C2D or that time frame. . Thats Facts. Its Pure MATH . Math does not LIE > MAN does . And to say the EU authority is just. Is an afront to mankind. These people are pigs. Its not just EU its whole world. I believe Majority is Good . Led by very evil minority. I am on topic. You prove to me there was ever justice in EUROPE. EVER! Should be easy . Good luck . Ya better know history cause i do.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Can we please get back to the topic instead of insane anarchy rants ?

This thread would be maybe five posts long if we stripped out everything that isn't on-topic. :laugh:

Heck even the title of the topic is questionable, Intel wasn't dubbed EVIL, they were fined for business activities that apparently stopped 2 yrs ago.

Even if the EU wanted to dub Intel evil, it would have to be done in past tense, as in "Intel was EVIL". I haven't read anything that claims Intel is still committing the offenses under discussion.

So using present tense (or future tense) when ascribing the ethical and moral state of Intel's decision makers is not something that can be done without speculation.

The administration changed, Barret had his lawyers draft some memo's that convinced him Intel was not committing acts of anti-competition as they interpreted the laws. Otellini came into town and his lawyers had a different interpretation of the laws so they stopped doing it, but at the same time he can't exactly go to war with the prior administration so they'll just elect to sweep it under the rug and move on if possible.

Or am I talking about water-boarding now? If GWB is guilty of allowing torture (and I'm not saying he did) then is Obama equally "evil" for not pursuing criminal action against the memo drafters? I think the philosophical parallels are there for what happened at Intel between the time Grove left the helm to Barret and when Barret left it to Otellini.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: apoppin
Can we please get back to the topic instead of insane anarchy rants ?

This thread would be maybe five posts long if we stripped out everything that isn't on-topic. :laugh:

Heck even the title of the topic is questionable, Intel wasn't dubbed EVIL, they were fined for business activities that apparently stopped 2 yrs ago.

Even if the EU wanted to dub Intel evil, it would have to be done in past tense, as in "Intel was EVIL". I haven't read anything that claims Intel is still committing the offenses under discussion.

So using present tense (or future tense) when ascribing the ethical and moral state of Intel's decision makers is not something that can be done without speculation.

The administration changed, Barret had his lawyers draft some memo's that convinced him Intel was not committing acts of anti-competition as they interpreted the laws. Otellini came into town and his lawyers had a different interpretation of the laws so they stopped doing it, but at the same time he can't exactly go to war with the prior administration so they'll just elect to sweep it under the rug and move on if possible.

Or am I talking about water-boarding now? If GWB is guilty of allowing torture (and I'm not saying he did) then is Obama equally "evil" for not pursuing criminal action against the memo drafters? I think the philosophical parallels are there for what happened at Intel between the time Grove left the helm to Barret and when Barret left it to Otellini.

i was just thinking this thread would be SO at home in P&N

But have these activities stopped?
-AMD says "No!" .. there is still a court case pending.

As me giving "proof" .. that will happen when i see *anything* other than emotion in defending someone's dirty* company
[that isn't even "their company"]

*until the US case is over, we can speculate that Intel has not stopped any practices [since they are clearly still in denial]

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

Thjats all well in Good . But don't forget We have God given laws. Even tho were really not allowed to pass judgement. We can remove such people from our communities. So they can't Stay it . Than they Are Given CHOICE to stay away or instant Death if they choose to come back . NO judge no jury. Just choice and Living within community or out of it. It really is that simple . Gods laws are not etched on stone tablets. They are etched into your mind heart and spirit. You choose whether to do right from wrong. Mans laws only serve to make gray. When there is infact NO Gray. It Black and White . No in between. The WOrd again said of luke warm water. I spit it out because its neither Cold or Hot. The Word Actually Says BLack Is > than Gray . White is > than Gray. Gray is PURE EVIL. Designed to mislead. Black / White is simple . Gray is were problem is. Gray is Man removing choice. Don't believe because man law has No authority . That there is NO authority . That Authority rest in each and every one of us. But we have to make CHOICE! To achieve enlightenment . their is no other way. There are no short cuts. You have to become aware of your own Authority that GOD gave you. No man can take that from you that is not evil.

Your god is dead.

Can we please get back to the topic instead of insane anarchy rants ?

If each business chose to act irresponsibly - like intel; and each person lived like the poster i am addressing suggests, then civilization is indeed over.

The human animal has demonstrated they are unable to live without laws. They are clearly not in touch with any reality nevemind any built-in instincts of "fairness" - except survival and reproduction. What distinguishes humans from animals is their willingness to live in a society and to protect the weak.

Predators like intel's senior board eat the weak and harm all of us by their schemes

I think as you have been taught. Your inteligent. But what if what you been taught is a lie. And that lie can be exposed by your own beliefs I believe Tech HOLds a Promise of a differant future. One that Man has created. I WANT to believe that.

But as you have accurately pointed out you and I think on differant levels . The majority would agree with you of this I have zero doubt.

Your science teaches you about natural evolution . But you ignor that which that very science teaches. Basicly the laws of Cause and Effect.

If man goes outside of nature . WHich he has threw knowledge. Without wisdom to use.

Man changes nature. Nature to us is biosphere. But trueth is its universe. He also changes natural EVOLUTION. THREW CAUSE AND EFFECT. Everthing your Science reaches you goes against what society is in NATURE.

Your right I am a heathen . Of all people that ever lived . The American Native in North America came closest to ideal life style for perserverving natural laws of biosphere (Universe) and the promotion of enlightenment. Your own science can show this is afact. The question you have to ask yourself CAN science save us from going outside the boundries of natual(UNIVERSIAL) law. I have always hoped so . But looking at world . I would say the chances of man going against Universial Law that YOUR science can prove isn't likely to happen .

 

[snakeye]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: craftech
To further emphasize my point, another EU suit that got little attention in the US media was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...crosoft_antitrust_case

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/m...rs_us_google_microsoft

The EU and it's media serve the public interest. The US and it's media serve corporate interest.

Gimme a fucking break, that is the lamest shit I have ever heard. The MS case was all over business newspapers, online and offline. The WSJ (the only respectable newspaper at the time and still) covered the case. I did not watch TV back then but I can bet CNBC spent significant airtime on the story.

Do you really expect the shitty tabloids in the US or Europe to cover that case? You think The Sun or Bild will pick up the intel case? I think not. Take your weenie anti-capitalism elsewhere.

Back on topic, this is another case of government corruption, stealing money from private enterprise to pad their ill-gotten gains (i.e. taxes). Let me know when the EU tries to fine Boeing out of business to protect Airbus.

Do you know that the EU fines European companies too? In one of the links posted in this thread, there was mention of Michelin, a French company, being fined for some rebate program back in 2001. That's just one example; I'm sure there are many more.

Do you not acknowledge the fact that Intel has been using dirty tactics to dominate AMD?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
History listen time . NAme 1 good humantarian Idea. That come from the West . not including Greece. Good luck . Name one Good Honest European Ruler threw History . Maybe 2 . 1 for sure.

Durring WWI& WWII The English Lord Rothschild Financiad both Sides. If you or I did this its called treason . But Bankers are allowerd to do this . Excuse me! This is WRONG. But EU and rest of World Governments agree its OK. NO its NOT . NO ONE has Authority over another. TO change Whats right or wrong based on your standing in community . Pure BS .

More European BS. IS the neutral Swiss. In times of War . The rich deposit their richies so as not to lose. Both sides Honor this agreement . But that only because Both sides the RICH run the Show . No matter what label is on the can the contents is still worms. When ya fight a war . Spoils go to Victory . Its not some game were rules are inplace . Pure BS.

World talks about terrorism . Yet in wars we bomb civilians (women/Children) WE(USA) well even use mass destruction weapons(Japan) . The only rules inplace are inplace to protect world leaders and the Rich. That Authority is coming to an end . No man has authority over me. None! I do as I please . I not bad person so I don't do what law calls wrong. ALot. But law doesn't tell me what I can or cann't do . No man or government has the right to make my GOD given CHOICIES for ME. People may argue about who what Christ was . I can tell ya . It doesn't matter. The Gosphels is whats matters its was the WORD. THe WORD SAID : Make laws not or you shall be bound by them. Other than what I have given you. So very true . Everytime Law is created Choice is removed.

No man can Make me Bow to authority of government . I will willing die first . Its funny the lowest among us are runningthe world . But many now see trueth . No matter what happens its going to be good . I will stand against Authority . Probably die. But I die I free man with my choicies . Europe is the scum of world . Look at its History . There all thievies. The most Honest country in the WORLD is Afghanastan. Its a country of criminals and they admit it. The rest of world should be so selfaware. You can NOT point to MANs AUTHORITY and SAy this is Justic , Because its pure Evil Lie . Its is the excercise of removing GOD given Choice. Law other than living word is pure evil as it removes choice an afront to God and MAN . This is argument you cann't win . As its foundation is trueth and its wisdom pure. LAW removes CHOICE. WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICIES. Can't be made for Us. If you follow there Lies. You can never achieve enlightenment.

That's all well and good Nemesis until your neighbor claims the same and then proceeds to shoot you dead, steal your horses, and take liberties with your woman.

Laws aren't created for you, they are created to protect you from your neighbor. To give you recourse when your neighbor decides they too are above any man's law but they aren't as nice a person as you.

What do you think driving on our interstate highways would be like if there were no laws regarding which side of the road you can expect people to drive on? Or headlights at night, or the speeds, etc. And no drinking before driving, etc.

Laws don't tell us how to behave, they set expectation of how we can reasonably presume the world around us will behave at a minimum.

I like knowing that I can go to a bar and the odds are good that I won't be shot dead in the back over a game of poker. Its still possible, but not as probable as it was 100yrs ago. The law sets the expectation, it is still up to the people to decide whether or not they will perform to expectation. It serves a purpose.

You can talk the talk but I doubt very much you'd survive more than a few days in the lawless anarchy world you espouse.

Thjats all well in Good . But don't forget We have God given laws. Even tho were really not allowed to pass judgement. We can remove such people from our communities. So they can't Stay it . Than they Are Given CHOICE to stay away or instant Death if they choose to come back . NO judge no jury. Just choice and Living within community or out of it. It really is that simple . Gods laws are not etched on stone tablets. They are etched into your mind heart and spirit. You choose whether to do right from wrong. Mans laws only serve to make gray. When there is infact NO Gray. It Black and White . No in between. The WOrd again said of luke warm water. I spit it out because its neither Cold or Hot. The Word Actually Says BLack Is > than Gray . White is > than Gray. Gray is PURE EVIL. Designed to mislead. Black / White is simple . Gray is were problem is. Gray is Man removing choice. Don't believe because man law has No authority . That there is NO authority . That Authority rest in each and every one of us. But we have to make CHOICE! To achieve enlightenment . their is no other way. There are no short cuts. You have to become aware of your own Authority that GOD gave you. No man can take that from you that is not evil.

Your god is dead.

Can we please get back to the topic instead of insane anarchy rants ?

If each business chose to act irresponsibly - like intel; and each person lived like the poster i am addressing suggests, then civilization is indeed over.

The human animal has demonstrated they are unable to live without laws. They are clearly not in touch with any reality nevemind any built-in instincts of "fairness" - except survival and reproduction. What distinguishes humans from animals is their willingness to live in a society and to protect the weak.

Predators like intel's senior board eat the weak and harm all of us by their schemes

I think as you have been taught. Your inteligent. But what if what you been taught is a lie. And that lie can be exposed by your own beliefs I believe Tech HOLds a Promise of a differant future. One that Man has created. I WANT to believe that.

But as you have accurately pointed out you and I think on differant levels . The majority would agree with you of this I have zero doubt.

Your science teaches you about natural evolution . But you ignor that which that very science teaches. Basicly the laws of Cause and Effect.

If man goes outside of nature . WHich he has threw knowledge. Without wisdom to use.

Man changes nature. Nature to us is biosphere. But trueth is its universe. He also changes natural EVOLUTION. THREW CAUSE AND EFFECT. Everthing your Science reaches you goes against what society is in NATURE.

Your right I am a heathen . Of all people that ever lived . The American Native in North America came closest to ideal life style for perserverving natural laws of biosphere (Universe) and the promotion of enlightenment. Your own science can show this is afact. The question you have to ask yourself CAN science save us from going outside the boundries of natual(UNIVERSIAL) law. I have always hoped so . But looking at world . I would say the chances of man going against Universial Law that YOUR science can prove isn't likely to happen .

You don't have a clue what i believe

You are on the right track actually .. but think outside the box at the metaphysical underpinnings to this material universe

Within our sandbox there are rules and laws .. and intel must subscribe to staying within what is called "corporate ethics" or it breaks down society
- until those rules change or humans become privy to dev tools, we follow the rules or suffer consequences

indeed there is cause and effect - intel caused an upset outside the business ethics norm - as defined by the laws of this civilization - and the effect was a fine
- Their very best lawyers argued to no avail in THREE cases .. and they are about to lose a 4th major one in stunning fashion

Why can't you learn from a "No" .. the courts of civilization have spoken and signaled a change [again] - away from monopolistic unfair business practices

now let them learn from it and work within the law or seek to change them in an orderly fashion ... and not by bribery or by buying influence as some mega-corporations pursue

anything else is the Law of the Jungle .. do you want that? You are a little fish that only speaks big and one that would be gobbled up quickly without Law to protect you.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I agree there are rules . I choose to follow rules of Supply = demand . If you can't supply or gaurantee supply it will kill your business. Cause and effect. I can't help your moral law goes against laws of supply and demand. AMD never could supply with gauranree there for no contracts. Law of supply demand . You base your case on immoral peoples decisions . I base mine on math that you can't not disprove. Amd position in the market is an effect of the fact they couldn't guartee supply and that can be proven . You choose to ignor the facts . Thats fine with me just don't talk evil shit ok . because your spreading it.