Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[SiliconFly]

...I hope we get some new info regarding Meteor Lake soon. I would love to see some detailed numbers concerning power. I am considering the chip for my next laptop upgrade (depending on when I decide to pull the trigger)

Would recommend holding off for a while until performance and efficiency numbers are out. MTL laptops are priced too high and may not be worth the money. Until we're sure that MTL is worth every single penny, I think waiting would be more advisable.Better to avoid buyer's remorse.

 

[Hulk]

The "safest bet" prediction one can make regarding future generations of CPU's when comparing AMD and Intel is to assume they will be "about the same."

The only giant leap we've seen in the last 20 years has been Core 2, which cleared the field for a few years.

Once AMD caught up Zen 2 was about as good as Skylake, Zen 3 was about as good as Sunny/Cypress Cove, Zen 4 about as good as Golden Cove.

Yeah, so ARL will be "about" as good as Zen 5! On one hand that's kind of boring but on the other hand it sets up endless debates on forums like these as you can also root for "your team" in one metric of performance or another that it wins.

 

[dullard]

On one hand that's kind of boring but on the other hand it sets up endless debates on forums like these as you can also root for "your team" in one metric of performance or another that it wins.

Bah humbug! They are both on the same x86 team competing against ARM.

 

[Hulk]

Bah humbug! They are both on the same x86 team competing against ARM.

Rumors of ARM's imminent take over of the desktop have been around for 10 years now. I'm still using x86 on the desktop to get work done as is the rest of the world.

 

[H433x0n]

The "safest bet" prediction one can make regarding future generations of CPU's when comparing AMD and Intel is to assume they will be "about the same."

The only giant leap we've seen in the last 20 years has been Core 2, which cleared the field for a few years.

Once AMD caught up Zen 2 was about as good as Skylake, Zen 3 was about as good as Sunny/Cypress Cove, Zen 4 about as good as Golden Cove.

Yeah, so ARL will be "about" as good as Zen 5! On one hand that's kind of boring but on the other hand it sets up endless debates on forums like these as you can also root for "your team" in one metric of performance or another that it wins.

I’d argue Zen 4 is a better core than Golden Cove / Raptor Cove. Technically Raptor Cove has higher IPC for floating point but it’s at the expense of too much area.

 

[tamz_msc]

MTL laptops are priced too high and may not be worth the money.

Are they?

I saw MSI models with the base Core 7 Ultra up for preorder on Newegg for $1049. They will certainly be available on cheaper laptops by early next year. The only question that yet remains to be answered is whether the cheaper models will use the -H SKUs but configured for lower power, or the -U SKUs. Going by past releases, I think it will be the former.

 

[Hulk]

I’d argue Zen 4 is a better core than Golden Cove / Raptor Cove. Technically Raptor Cove has higher IPC for floating point but it’s at the expense of too much area.

Thank you for validating my post. Yes, they can both be earnestly argued for (and against).

 

[SiliconFly]

...ARL will be "about" as good as Zen 5...

I doubt it. Zen 5 is a mature design. Whereas, ARL's LNC is the 1st iteration of a new design. May or may not catch up with Zen 5 in ST. I believe it may not. But it may catch up or surpass Zen 5 in MT & power efficiency. I think it's gonna surpass Zen 5 at least in power efficiency cos Intel's now way too focused on efficiency in mobile.

 

[dullard]

Rumors of ARM's imminent take over of the desktop have been around for 10 years now. I'm still using x86 on the desktop to get work done as is the rest of the world.

The difference is that now Microsoft, ARM, AMD, and Nvidia are all actively working together to replace x86. Microsoft is optimizing Windows 12 for ARM--rather than just making a crummy port of Windows to run on a couple obscure laptops. This new collaboration is for laptops: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/23/23929240/nvidia-amd-cpu-arm-pc-chips-2025-release-rumors
desktop: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-dev-kit-2023/94k0p67w7581?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
and all the way through cloud: https://news.microsoft.com/source/features/ai/in-house-chips-silicon-to-service-to-meet-ai-demand/

As long as people think it is an AMD vs Intel battle, then both companies will lose the war against Microsoft + Nvidia + ARM.

I realize that I'll never convince anyone to give up their favored chip company. But, I think we can at least stop encouraging others to root for "your team" as that is actually harming your team. Both make quite good chips. Far better than anything we had just a few years ago. However, neither company can survive ARM if they fall into petty squabbles.

 

[Nothingness]

Rumors of ARM's imminent take over of the desktop have been around for 10 years now. I'm still using x86 on the desktop to get work done as is the rest of the world.

Never heard that Arm was to take over desktop. We've repeatedly heard it would take over laptop, and even that didn't materialize (except for Apple).

 

[lightisgood]

May or may not catch up with Zen 5 in ST.

This is small problem.
In 2024, AI and DC products could be big hits, too...
Gelsinger is surely executing his roadmap.
Today, Intel has very strong CEO, and made remarkable progress.

 

[SiliconFly]

Rumors of ARM's imminent take over of the desktop have been around for 10 years now. I'm still using x86 on the desktop to get work done as is the rest of the world.

Yep. Jim Keller himself said that ISA isn't that important since the x86 overhead is insignificant when compared to ARM ISA. He also mentioned that both have their own bloat and one isn't better than the other in terms of performance or efficiency.

As far as ARM & x64 ISA are concerned, according to Keller, both performance and efficiency are purely based on processor design and not ISA. That is, one is no better than the other from a pure ISA standpoint.

It's just that ARM's processor designs have heavily focused on efficiency & Intel's focus has predominantly been on performance and higher clocks. But, thats not true anymore as they're both staring to converge as we speak.

I believe, by 2025, most Intel/AMD and ARM desktop/laptop CPUs will be on par in performance & power efficiency.

 

[Joe NYC]

The difference is that now Microsoft, ARM, AMD, and Nvidia are all actively working together to replace x86. Microsoft is optimizing Windows 12 for ARM--rather than just making a crummy port of Windows to run on a couple obscure laptops. This new collaboration is for laptops: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/23/23929240/nvidia-amd-cpu-arm-pc-chips-2025-release-rumors
desktop: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-dev-kit-2023/94k0p67w7581?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
and all the way through cloud: https://news.microsoft.com/source/features/ai/in-house-chips-silicon-to-service-to-meet-ai-demand/

As long as people think it is an AMD vs Intel battle, then both companies will lose the war against Microsoft + Nvidia + ARM.

I realize that I'll never convince anyone to give up their favored chip company. But, I think we can at least stop encouraging others to root for "your team" as that is actually harming your team. Both make quite good chips. Far better than anything we had just a few years ago. However, neither company can survive ARM if they fall into petty squabbles.

This better not be like when they let a crazy guy replace desktop Windows with tablet interface.

Which nobody used...

 

[SiliconFly]

The difference is that now Microsoft, ARM, AMD, and Nvidia are all actively working together to replace x86. Microsoft is optimizing Windows 12 for ARM--rather than just making a crummy port of Windows to run on a couple obscure laptops. This new collaboration is for laptops: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/23/23929240/nvidia-amd-cpu-arm-pc-chips-2025-release-rumors
desktop: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-dev-kit-2023/94k0p67w7581?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
and all the way through cloud: https://news.microsoft.com/source/features/ai/in-house-chips-silicon-to-service-to-meet-ai-demand/

As long as people think it is an AMD vs Intel battle, then both companies will lose the war against Microsoft + Nvidia + ARM.

I realize that I'll never convince anyone to give up their favored chip company. But, I think we can at least stop encouraging others to root for "your team" as that is actually harming your team. Both make quite good chips. Far better than anything we had just a few years ago. However, neither company can survive ARM if they fall into petty squabbles.

Making a world class high performance and efficient ARM laptop/desktop class CPU isn't an issue anymore. Apple has already shown the way. But the big question is, will they succeed? I don't think it's gonna happen any time now.

Microsoft Windows managed to spawn such a massive x86 software ecosystem over the decades, an ARM software ecosystem won't be able to replace it in a blink of an eye. It's gonna take many many years. Easily a decade at least if they start now full fledged and everything goes right. Not an easy task.

x86 has around 1.5 to 2 billion users. And most of them won't consider an alternative until there's a compelling reason and/or forced to do so.

 

[igor_kavinski]

x86 has around 1.5 to 2 billion users. And most of them won't consider an alternative until there's a compelling reason and/or forced to do so.

A compelling reason for me would be an ARM CPU working at 7 GHz. Even if it runs x86 software in emulation mode, eventually there will be enough native software able to take full advantage of 7 GHz frequency and leave behind similar legacy x86 software in the dust. The higher your CPU goes, the more your mind blows!

 

[Hulk]

The difference is that now Microsoft, ARM, AMD, and Nvidia are all actively working together to replace x86. Microsoft is optimizing Windows 12 for ARM--rather than just making a crummy port of Windows to run on a couple obscure laptops. This new collaboration is for laptops: https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/23/23929240/nvidia-amd-cpu-arm-pc-chips-2025-release-rumors
desktop: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-dev-kit-2023/94k0p67w7581?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
and all the way through cloud: https://news.microsoft.com/source/features/ai/in-house-chips-silicon-to-service-to-meet-ai-demand/

As long as people think it is an AMD vs Intel battle, then both companies will lose the war against Microsoft + Nvidia + ARM.

I realize that I'll never convince anyone to give up their favored chip company. But, I think we can at least stop encouraging others to root for "your team" as that is actually harming your team. Both make quite good chips. Far better than anything we had just a few years ago. However, neither company can survive ARM if they fall into petty squabbles.

It'll happen right about when we see solid state batteries in cars, which of course was a few years ago

 

[SiliconFly]

A compelling reason for me would be an ARM CPU working at 7 GHz. Even if it runs x86 software in emulation mode, eventually there will be enough native software able to take full advantage of 7 GHz frequency and leave behind similar legacy x86 software in the dust. The higher your CPU goes, the more your mind blows!

In my understanding, ARM designs tend to target the lower end of the V/F curve for sustained efficiency and performance. It's inherent in their nature. Pushing an ARM core to 7 GHz would be a disaster if you ask me, when it starts guzzling more power than RPL for similar workloads. ARM's performance in general is based on more architectural innovations rather than higher clocks. And considering current ARM designs, I think they'll be very inefficient at higher clocks. The die area might get heavily bloated and their thermal envelope might increase disproportionately. Just a thought.

 

[SiliconFly]

It'll happen right about when we see solid state batteries in cars, which of course was a few years ago

It'll happen when it happens.

 

[Goop_reformed]

>Public being the one Gelsinger uses as a pep-talk (to customers, Wall Street, employees) and private position is what Intel really believes about readiness and competitiveness of the new nodes.

I agree, Intel would definitely fab granites at TSMC if foundry business is a separate entity.

Uh oh, reports are saying Intel just placed a $14B order at TSMC:

Intel to place US$14 billion orders with TSMC, says report

Over the next two years Intel will place orders worth US$14 billion with foundry TSMC according to semiconductor analyst Andrew Lu.

www.eenewseurope.com

传台积电拿下英特尔140亿美元代工大单！

近日，有传闻称英特尔明年即将推出的Lunar Lake 处理器将会首度采用台积电3nm制程代工，预计将为台积电带来超过140亿美元的订单。

mp.weixin.qq.com

Does not bode well for both IF and AMD.

 

[Markfw]

Does not bode well for both IF and AMD.

Why ? 4B in 2024 and the rest of the 10b in years to come. AMD still has billions ordered.

 

[igor_kavinski]

4B in 2024

Mostly likely for the tGPU chiplet in Lunar Lake.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And considering current ARM designs, I think they'll be very inefficient at higher clocks. The die area might get heavily bloated and their thermal envelope might increase disproportionately. Just a thought.

It will be a new design by a defected Intel CPU architect who gets disgusted with whatever is going on at Intel right now. He's too impatient for Nova Lake to arrive in 2026 and he loves a challenge so he's funning around at some competitor's underground lab as we speak, working on pushing ARM to the moon and kick Nova Lake way past Mars.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Does not bode well for both IF and AMD.

We don't know what Intel is using those wafers for, but at the same time it definitely looks bad for IFS every time Intel has to use wafers from another fab.

AMD will be fine. TSMC will make sure they get wafers, and will charge Intel up-front (again) for any future capacity just the same way they charged Intel ~$10 billion for N3 capacity.

 

[Joe NYC]

Mostly likely for the tGPU chiplet in Lunar Lake.

From the leaked specs, the CPU chiplet is also TSMC. So pretty much the whole package, except the interposer.

 

[Goop_reformed]

Uh oh, reports are saying Intel just placed a $14B order at TSMC:

Intel to place US$14 billion orders with TSMC, says report

Over the next two years Intel will place orders worth US$14 billion with foundry TSMC according to semiconductor analyst Andrew Lu.

www.eenewseurope.com

传台积电拿下英特尔140亿美元代工大单！

近日，有传闻称英特尔明年即将推出的Lunar Lake 处理器将会首度采用台积电3nm制程代工，预计将为台积电带来超过140亿美元的订单。

mp.weixin.qq.com

Does not bode well for both IF and AMD.

I mean amd doesn't even have the volume for mobile now, imagine the next few years with even more limited wafers