Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Joe NYC]

Forget AMD's C cores (Zen 4c, Zen 5c and Zen 6c). Intel's E cores by themselves are more efficient than AMD C corers & even ARM cores. Sierra Forrest with 288 cores is gonna kick the life out of competition.

And the newer Intel's LP E cores are expected to be even more efficient than the already efficient E cores. LNC is also being targeted towards efficiency. So is 20A. Intel's upcoming lineup is far better than what people perceive at the moment.

Really hard to make a projection from a micro test to a server with > 100 cores, that can hold any water. It is still very much an unknown.

One thing that is known is that Facebook was not impressed and switched to AMD Bergamo (Zen 4c) rather than wait for Sierra Forrest with E cores.

 

[SiliconFly]

What are you drinking?

I'd like to have some of it.

Water.

You should try some. It's better than liquor.

 

[rainy]

Water.

You should try some. It's better than liquor.

Are you sure? I'm under impression that you both with Henry swagger drinking a lot of blue Kool-Aid.

 

[Hulk]

What are you drinking?

I'd like to have some of it.

I believe the article/paper is more theoretical than practical in nature. We all know that there is a certain point on the v/f curve where compute vs. power is maximized. So theoretically the most efficient means of compute would be lots and lots of superefficient cores running at relatively low clocks with perfectly multithreaded workloads (like CB).

In reality we know that ST performance is still, nearly 10 years later extremely important in a majority of applications. Also die area is expensive so there is a trade off between ultimate efficiency and hitting a price point for the product you are selling. It's a continuing balancing act. One that we will continue to discuss for years to come!

 

[SiliconFly]

Are you sure? I'm under impression that you both with Henry swagger drinking a lot of blue Kool-Aid.

Hopefully not. But you can always get me some.

In return, I'll get you water. Try it. Guaranteed to get you out of trance.

 

[eek2121]

I still remember the imaginary Windows Subsystem for Android (WSA). Imaginary cos it's useless in real life. Nice on paper, but sucks in reality. Very recently, I tried running some apps in Win10 in a VM on a Win11 system (running on excellent hardware) for some official stuff. Hell no. Emulation has limits. I love VMs, but native is cool. And like jim keller said, ISA is irrelevant. So, i'd say, we should pick the ISA we like and stay native for best results.

It works fine for the use cases I have tried it with (gaming).

I didn’t have any issues.

 

[SiliconFly]

It works fine for the use cases I have tried it with (gaming).

I didn’t have any issues.

Virtualization with gaming??

Are we talking about newer DX12 or even DX11 games? Or DX9 and older titles? Cos' virtualization kinda brings newer games to a crawl considering there is no GPU passthru to host both in vmware and virtualbox. And without passthru, the dx translation layer kills the performance. Most of the games even refuse to load with the virtual GPU considering it emulates only a subset.

Meaning, can your virtual setup run fortnite or cs2 at a decent frame rate?

 

[FlameTail]

Next will be competitor to Intel's Nova Lake, whatever codename AMD will be given. Also the successor of X Elite and Apple's M5 series are both targeting for 2026 release

And where does this information come from?

 

[DrMrLordX]

What are you drinking?

I'd like to have some of it.

Actually it's

Are you sure? I'm under impression that you both with Henry swagger drinking a lot of blue Kool-Aid.

Flavor Aid.

People need to remember that Sierra Forest may not be that power-efficient due to interconnect or other considerations. Until we see actual power numbers, we can't judge whether it'll be worth it to use Sierra Forest-SP over Bergamo.

 

[tamz_msc]

Looks like Meteor Lake will have no problem being available in the sub-1000 dollar segment. Plenty of availability at launch, unlike the competition.

 

[FlameTail]

Looks like Meteor Lake will have no problem being available in the sub-1000 dollar segment. Plenty of availability at launch, unlike the competition.

Why does AMD always struggle with availability/supply ?

 

[tamz_msc]

Why does AMD always struggle with availability/supply ?

They prioritize the wrong OEMs. By that I mean they are more interested in first getting a CPU into a fugly Asus gaming laptop than a workhorse Dell Inspiron.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

They prioritize the wrong OEMs. By that I mean they are more interested in first getting a CPU into a fugly Asus gaming laptop than a workhorse Dell Inspiron.

Instead of blaming It on AMD, why don't you ask Dell why they put Phoenix into their fugly Dell Gaming G15 laptops instead of Inspiron!

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Looks like Meteor Lake will have no problem being available in the sub-1000 dollar segment.

Doesn't look like It will be true for the full config -> 6P+8E+2LE
MSI with Ultra 7 155H starts at $1049.

P.S. but If they offer a 8GB DDR5 + 256GB SSD, then it will be under a $1000. Not sure who would want that.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Why does AMD always struggle with availability/supply ?

Nobody actually knows. AMD produces mobile chips and they vanish into the aether. They're probably in corporate laptops being sold direct, but that's just a guess.

 

[SiliconFly]

Looks like Meteor Lake will have no problem being available in the sub-1000 dollar segment. Plenty of availability at launch, unlike the competition.

Availability shouldn't be an issue cos they pushed the release date just to ensure that. But the pricing is asinine. It should be priced more like previous gen otherwise it won't be worth the price.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

But the pricing is asinine. It should be priced more like previous gen otherwise it won't be worth the price.

And you know It's not worth that price based on what?
We should first see the actual performance and power consumption, then we can talk If It is or not worth that price.

 

[Thibsie]

Ouch, that ignore button is certainly used often these days.
Bye kool-aid guys.

 

[tamz_msc]

Instead of blaming It on AMD, why don't you ask Dell why they put Phoenix into their fugly Dell Gaming G15 laptops instead of Inspiron!

It is probably because whatever Dell gets from AMD as supply is too little that it makes no sense to have them in the Vostros and Inspirons that outsell a G15 by 10 to 1.

 

[tamz_msc]

Doesn't look like It will be true for the full config -> 6P+8E+2LE
MSI with Ultra 7 155H starts at $1049.

P.S. but If they offer a 8GB DDR5 + 256GB SSD, then it will be under a $1000. Not sure who would want that.

Those are pre-order prices. They are always a bit higher on Newegg.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It is probably because whatever Dell gets from AMD as supply is too little that it makes no sense to have them in the Vostros and Inspirons that outsell a G15 by 10 to 1.

You or me don't know the reason behind It. I can say that Dell and Intel did another backdoor deal like in the past, but not enough chips looks a lot more realistic to be honest.
On that note, I don't see a reason why AMD should prefer Dell to Asus for example.

Those are pre-order prices. They are always a bit higher on Newegg.

Can be true, but this doesn't really prove that the full config MTL will be under $1000.
BTW, why should full MTL even cost under <$1000? Those laptops using It are more premium ones, so price will be naturally higher.

 

[FlameTail]

Will Qualcomm struggle with supply of their Snapdragon X chips?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Will Qualcomm struggle with supply of their Snapdragon X chips?

What does It have with MTL or any future Intel CPU?

 

[tamz_msc]

Can be true, but this doesn't really prove that the full config MTL will be under $1000.
BTW, why should full MTL even cost under <$1000? Those laptops using It are more premium ones, so price will be naturally higher.

Of course it will, because currently you can have i5-13500H equipped Lenovo IdeaPads without any dGPU for $865 in my currency including tax.

Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't sell the model with the i7-13700H, but I'm sure if it did, I could snag one for less than $1000. And I'm talking of a country that has historically had a weak currency compared to the USD.

 

[SiliconFly]

Of course it will, because currently you can have i5-13500H equipped Lenovo IdeaPads without any dGPU for $865 in my currency including tax.

Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't sell the model with the i7-13700H, but I'm sure if it did, I could snag one for less than $1000. And I'm talking of a country that has historically had a weak currency compared to the USD.

In my place, you can get a good i5 laptop for less than USD $600. If an equivalent Core Ultra 5 Laptop is gonna be priced 50% or so higher, then it's gonna be a big disappointment.