Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[FlameTail]

What does It have with MTL or any future Intel CPU?

It will be competing with MTL next year.

Of course, it's not relevant to topic of the thread, but we did go on a tangent regarding the availability of AMD mobile parts.

 

[Joe NYC]

Why does AMD always struggle with availability/supply ?

AMD struggles with OEMs getting AMD based designs released on time (or at all).

 

[SiliconFly]

It will be competing with MTL next year.

Of course, it's not relevant to topic of the thread, but we did go on a tangent regarding the availability of AMD mobile parts.

TSMC has good capacity in all its leading nodes including N4. So, Snapdragon X Elite volume shouldn't be an issue provided qualcomm has placed sufficient orders. But have they? I doubt it.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Of course it will, because currently you can have i5-13500H equipped Lenovo IdeaPads without any dGPU for $865 in my currency including tax.

Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't sell the model with the i7-13700H, but I'm sure if it did, I could snag one for less than $1000. And I'm talking of a country that has historically had a weak currency compared to the USD.

But i5-13500H is only 4P+8E, so a cutdown version.

Raptor Lakes with the full 6P+8E configuration are
55W: i5-13500HX
45W: i7-13700H, 13705H, 13800H and i9-13900H, 13905H, 13900HK
28W: i7-1370P
So then we should check those prices.
The cheapest one I found is ThinkBook 16 G6 with i7-13700H, 16GB, 1TB SSD without a dGPU for 1059 euro including taxes. Maybe in your country It is cheaper.

If we include also the cutdown MTLs, then of course you will find laptops for <$1000.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

In my place, you can get a good i5 laptop for less than USD $600. If an equivalent Core Ultra 5 Laptop is gonna be priced 50% or so higher, then it's gonna be a big disappointment.

And isn't that laptop actually using 2P+8E Alder Lake?
Cheapest i5 1335U(2P+8E) is for 703 euro in one of the biggest shops in my country.
Not sure about Alder but against this Raptor It shouldn't be 50% more expensive.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Some Acer laptops with MTL(Videocardz)

Base frequency as shown is a lot higher than what we can see with Raptor Lake.
15W 2P+8E+(2LE) -> base: 1.8 vs 3.3GHz and turbo: 5.2 vs 4.5GHz
28W 6P+8E+(2LE) -> base: 1.9 vs 3.8GHz and turbo: 5.2 vs 4.9GHz
Turbo is not great, especially for Ultra 5 125H.

I expect big gains in MT performance at low TDPs.
i7-13700H needs ~40W to keep ~3GHz in CB R15. Link

Ultra 7 155H should keep at least 3.8GHz in that test, which is 27% higher and even at lower power consumption, If the rumour about 28W is true.

I am not a big fan of Intel's big-little cores, AMD's approach is more to my liking, but I must say MTL does look promising, and I would rather pay more for It than buy Alder or Raptor Lake based laptop.

edit: Sorry guys, It looks like Ultra 5 125h has 4P+8E+2LE instead of 2P+8E+2LE.

 

[hemedans]

What if there is an emulator as good as Rosetta?

You don't really need native apps for smooth operation, as the emulation layer will do an excellent job.

There are 3rd party efforts too, Cassia from Adreno tools developers,

 

[SiliconFly]

I am not a big fan of Intel's big-little cores, AMD's approach is more to my liking, but I must say MTL does look promising, and I would rather pay more for It than buy Alder or Raptor Lake based laptop.

If MTL is gonna be a bit expensive at launch, thats quite understandable. That would be just marketing considering MTL isn't facing any serious threat at the moment. But if the price is gonna be higher than equivalent previous gen over long periods of time, then it's gonna hurt the consumers. Us. Thats never good for anyone.

Either way, recommend everyone to wait for a few months before making any MTL purchase until all the efficiency hype fades away and we can see what it truly is. Thats the best way to avoid falling into the Intel marketing trap.

 

[jpiniero]

If MTL is gonna be a bit expensive at launch, thats quite understandable. That would be just marketing considering MTL isn't facing any serious threat at the moment. But if the price is gonna be higher than equivalent previous gen over long periods of time, then it's gonna hurt the consumers. Us. Thats never good for anyone.

There's a reason Intel made the Core Ultra brand. Raptor Lake Refresh will be the mainstream stuff.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

If MTL is gonna be a bit expensive at launch, thats quite understandable. That would be just marketing considering MTL isn't facing any serious threat at the moment. But if the price is gonna be higher than equivalent previous gen over long periods of time, then it's gonna hurt the consumers. Us. Thats never good for anyone.

Equivalent in what? Core count? Then it will cost more. If you mean performance, that’s yet to be seen.
As @jpiniero just wrote, MTL is not aimed to be the mainstream stuff.

Either way, recommend everyone to wait for a few months before making any MTL purchase until all the efficiency hype fades away and we can see what it truly is. Thats the best way to avoid falling into the Intel marketing trap.

You don't really need a few months, you just need a couple of laptop reviews to know what to expect.

edit: I think even 2P+8E+2LE won't be that cheap. With those clocks, It could likely go even against 4-6P+8E at low TDPs(<=35W) in MT.

edit2: If Ultra 5 125H has base 3.3GHz for P-core, then E-cores should have base clock at 2.4GHz. That would be 83% faster than i7-1365U for both cores.
I think this one is a 15W CPU, considering 155H has higher base clock despite having more P cores.

edit3: If this Ultra 5 125H has the full 8Xe IGP, then It could be an interesting option for handhelds or budget gaming. I wonder If I can wait for Strix Point or not.

edit4: Ultra 5 125H has 4P cores, that was my mistake. But the 2P variant should still perform pretty well.

 

[igor_kavinski]

ASUS preparing ROG Zephyrus M16 gaming laptop with Core 9 Ultra 185H and RTX 4090 graphics - VideoCardz.com

ASUS preparing ROG Zephyrus laptop with flagship Meteor Lake CPU and RTX 4090 graphics The successor to M16 to feature the latest Intel & NVIDIA hardware. Until now, there was hardly any information on the Core Ultra 9 100H gaming laptop. The previous disclosure said that the Samsung Book 4 Pro...

videocardz.com

Of all the moronic things ASUS has ever done, this has to be the worst. Someone just shoot me!

 

[mikk]

2P+8E only have a GT1 tGPU with 64VE, this isn't a premium line. Pricing looks similar to Raptor Lake from what I can see.

Ultra 5 125H gets 112VE/7Xe according to Golden pig upgrade. 135H and above gets 128VE/8Xe.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

2P+8E only have a GT1 tGPU with 64VE, this isn't a premium line. Pricing looks similar to Raptor Lake from what I can see.

Ultra 5 125H gets 112VE/7Xe according to Golden pig upgrade. 135H and above gets 128VE/8Xe.

Kinda regrettable that It has only a single render slice. Still, that IGP should perform at least as the 96EU config in Raptor Lake thanks to >=50% higher clocks.

edit:
I found out Ultra 7 155U has only 2.7GHz base, but It is a 4P+8E+2LE model.
What is more surprising is that Ultra 5 135U with 2P+8E+2LE cores has only 2.1GHz base clock. Logically, It should have a higher base clock than 155U.
Wrong showing in Geekbench? Link

 

[igor_kavinski]

Logically, It should have a higher base clock than 155U.

Why would Intel graciously offer a higher base speed to Core Ultra 5 peasants, much to the chagrin of their Core Ultra 7 peasants?

 

[FlameTail]

Will MTL GPU beat the Apple M2?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Why would Intel graciously offer a higher base speed to Core Ultra 5 peasants, much to the chagrin of their Core Ultra 7 peasants?

True, but without artificially crippling It, It should achieve higher clocks because It has fewer cores to feed within a limited TDP.

I just checked Raptor Lake, and It still looks like this MTL-U is more crippled than the previous generation.

Comparison:
i7-1365U(2P+8E) vs i5-1335U(2P+8E)
P-cores: 1.8(5.2)GHz vs 1.3(4.6)GHz
E-cores: 1.3(3.9)GHz vs 0.9(3.4)GHz
38% higher P-core base and 44% higher E-core base.

Ultra 7-155U(4P+8E+2LE) vs Ultra 5-135U(2P+8E+2LE)
P-cores: 2.7(4.8)GHz vs 2.1(4.4)GHz
29% higher P-core base, which is a smaller difference, but It has 4 P-cores.

But this is still only base clock, average clockspeed should be much closer.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Will MTL GPU beat the Apple M2?

View attachment 89799

There is no mention at what TDP did i7-13700H achieve that score.
MTL will have up to 2x more powerful IGP(33% more units, 50% higher clockspeed at 2.25GHz), so It could theoretically reach 47FPS, but at an unknown TDP.
I don't think It should matter. It's not like you can play a lot of PC games using Apple SoC.

 

[mikk]

165H runs at 2300 Mhz tGPU, no info about 185H yet.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

165H runs at 2300 Mhz tGPU, no info about 185H yet.

But that is max(turbo) clockspeed, right?
I am more interested in the gaming (achievable) clocks.

 

[mikk]

I hope it can achieve at least 2000 Mhz at 28W in a typical gaming workload, we will see.

 

[Saylick]

Not sure if this is legit. Scores seem low?

https://x.com/9550pro/status/1731342312012480545?s=20

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL with an Intel Core Ultra 9 185H processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[FlameTail]

Galaksy Buuk ?

https://x.com/Tech_Reve/status/1731132134738604328?s=20

"According to South Korea's Yonhap News, Samsung is planning to unveil the Galaxy Book 4 on December 15.

The reveal timing has been moved up by about a month and a half compared to its predecessor, interpreted as a strategic move to secure the symbolism of being the 'first AI laptop.'

Notably, Samsung Electronics plans to apply on-device AI using its proprietary AI model 'Samsung Gaus' in the Galaxy Book 4 series."

 

[Geddagod]

Yay, Anandtech forums works for me again
In other news, apparently NVL won't use RYC, but rather PTC

 

[cebri1]

Not sure if this is legit. Scores seem low?

https://x.com/9550pro/status/1731342312012480545?s=20

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL with an Intel Core Ultra 9 185H processor.

browser.geekbench.com

That would make it signifcantly slower than a 155H which doesn't make any sense.

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ASUS Zenbook 14 UX3405MA_UX3405MA vs SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

 

[mikk]

Yay, Anandtech forums works for me again
In other news, apparently NVL won't use RYC, but rather PTC

How can you know? Afaik Royal Core is more like a project name. The old reddit leak claimed Panther Cove is an entirely new architecture from the ground up.

That would make it signifcantly slower than a 155H which doesn't make any sense.

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ASUS Zenbook 14 UX3405MA_UX3405MA vs SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XGL - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

We can find weak scores from all kind of CPUs on Geekbench and sure having much better scores from lower SKUs means this 185H score is meaningless. Many people don't understand this.