Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Hulk]

But apart from Casual Gaming I see no killer applications that could make good use of much more powerful iGPUs than what we have today.

I think much of the problem with off-loading a lot of the general compute currently being accomplished by the CPU is the difficulty in programming for the GPU. There aren't a lot of really brilliant programmers out there and they have higher paying options than to create routines for GPU's that are extremely complicated. It's kind of like when John Carmack got the PC to smooth scroll. It couldn't be done until someone really talented decided they wanted to do it.

Like everything it all comes down to money. If there was billions to be made it'd be done. But the compute we get via the GPU is what economics allows.

 

[Glo.]

That is exactly what I meant - these things are rather old.
We have GPU acceleration on the Desktop now for more than a decade. Back in the "Future is Fusion" days there was a lot of buzz about what you could do with integrating graphics and doing APUs. That was around 2010. But apart from Casual Gaming I see no killer applications that could make good use of much more powerful iGPUs than what we have today.

Machine Learning and AI, EVERYWHERE.

You need as powerful hardware possible, everywhere, for next generation products and DEVICES.

I think I hinted now to a lot of "possibilities" that will happen in relatively close future.

 

[poke01]

CPUs with big iGPUs will become the norm after 2024. Intel has it planned with Arrow Lake and Apple started in 2021.

Of course people that don't need big iGPUs can go for CPUs that have a tiny iGPUs. Example: base M1 or an i5 that has small iGPU.

 

[Glo.]

CPUs with big iGPUs will become the norm after 2024. Intel has it planned with Arrow Lake and Apple started in 2021.

Of course people that don't need big iGPUs can go for CPUs that have a tiny iGPUs. Example: base M1 or an i5 that has small iGPU.

CPUs like 13900K are not going anywhere. Its simply sofware paradigm will shift towards more powerful APUs/SOCs because of the need for expanding Machine Learning and AI integration into the OSes/software, while at the same time lowering the power draw/increasing efficiency, making smaller device footprints.

 

[poke01]

CPUs like 13900K are not going anywhere. Its simply sofware paradigm will shift towards more powerful APUs/SOCs because of the need for expanding Machine Learning and AI integration into the OSes/software, while at the same time lowering the power draw/increasing efficiency, making smaller device footprints.

I meant for laptops like the Dell XPS, HP Elitebook, Lenovo ThinkPads. Desktop won't go this route.

 

[Glo.]

I meant for laptops like the Dell XPS, HP Elitebook, Lenovo ThinkPads. Desktop won't go this route.

Everything will have to go this route, apart from the DIY, highest end market.

Majority of market will be NUCs, laptops, all-in-ones, and even entry, up to mainstream, level DIY will be APU/SOC based.

 

[poke01]

Everything will have to go this route, apart from the DIY, highest end market.

Majority of market will be NUCs, laptops, all-in-ones, and even entry, up to mainstream, level DIY will be APU/SOC based.

Qualcomm Nuvia chips if they ever release they will also have insane powerful NPU and AI chips as well as industry leading core designs. Just hope ARM(the company) is smart enough to leave Qualcomm alone.

Anyway back on topic. Intel will also focus on the NPU in Windows with MTL. I hope Intel does not delay. If Intel does Skylake fiasco again, it's dead. So MTL and ARL cannot be delayed.

 

[Joe NYC]

ARL-S might be Intel_4 + TSMC_N3.
If ARL-S comes in early 2024, this is reasonable decision.

Intel Desktop CPU Rumors: Raptor Lake Refresh In 2023, Meteor Lake Up To Core i7 With 6+16, Arrow Lake Up To Core i9 With 8+16 SKUs In 2024

New rumors regarding Intel's next-gen desktop CPU lineup including Raptor Lake Refresh, Meteor Lake & Arrow Lake have been disclosed.

wccftech.com

> The Intel 15th Gen Arrow Lake-S Desktop CPUs will bring back the 24 cores that we get on Raptor Lake CPUs today.
> The Arrow Lake-S top die will utilize up to 24 cores which will be a combination of 8 Performance Cores and 16 Efficiency Cores.
> According to the Enthusiast Citizen, the lineup will only come in Core i7 and Core i9 flavors.
> The CPU will retain the Intel 4 (CPU) + TSMC N3 (GPU) SKU node layout.
> It is rumored that the 20A node won't make its way to the desktop lineup.

We will see how reliable these 2 items:
- Raptor Lake refresh in 2023
- Meteor Lake delay to 2024

will turn out to be. I am skeptical.

 

[A///]

We will see how reliable these 2 items:
- Raptor Lake refresh in 2023
- Meteor Lake delay to 2024

will turn out to be. I am skeptical.

And I was called a crazy old man for saying Mtl was delayed. Why would intel kill their current golden goose assuming the sales pan out in the next quarter with Intel's client division doing better and amd acknowledging their higher asps destroyed their success. Even after winning a hefty jackpot not long ago it doesn't make me want to spend more money than I should on a build when I know amd's gonna throw us consumers a bone with msrp reductions on am5.

Intel's Ks should be strong enough to go against x3d coming in the spring, and even then those are 6 and 8 c parts and I won't be expecting AMD to release anything for the high end. AMD is hyper focused on their datacenter products. Ryzen's a byproduct, a good one but a byproduct no less.

I'll take a gander at Intel with Arrow Lake in a few years. I'm expecting that to be a big performance jump from 13th gen even if it maintains the 8+16 layout but with a 4 core Xe layout. Intel utilizing a better big and small core makes a lot more sense than the 8+32 bs that many of us were repeating including myself.

There is always going to be a physicall wall of how many cores you can shove into a processor and stave off power draw so that it isn't obscenely high. Zen 5 will need to crack it outta the park for it contend with whatever Intel has out by then.

 

[Hulk]

When do you think Intel started binning for Raptor Lake?

 

[DrMrLordX]

We will see how reliable these 2 items:
- Raptor Lake refresh in 2023
- Meteor Lake delay to 2024

will turn out to be. I am skeptical.

Raptor Lake refresh seems likely. Meteor Lake delay does not. The most likely outcome is that Meteor Lake arrives "on schedule" (e.g. after factoring in existing, known delays) in 2023 on mobile and is mostly MIA on desktop. If Intel can't get Meteor Lake out in the mobile sector in 2023 then they are in for some more trouble.

 

[Joe NYC]

Raptor Lake refresh seems likely. Meteor Lake delay does not. The most likely outcome is that Meteor Lake arrives "on schedule" (e.g. after factoring in existing, known delays) in 2023 on mobile and is mostly MIA on desktop. If Intel can't get Meteor Lake out in the mobile sector in 2023 then they are in for some more trouble.

That's the part I was having hard time believing, that Intel would drop the ball on Meteor Lake and "Intel 4" so badly, that it is postponed to 2024. Shareholders would have to be notified.

Because that would mean distribution of the 5 nodes in 4 years as:

2021 Intel 7
2022 +
2023 +
2024 Intel 4, Intel 3
2025 20A, 18A

So it would become 4 nodes in 2 years, that that's something that could end with men in white coats coming to pick up Gelsinger from his office.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If Intel can't get Meteor Lake out in the mobile sector in 2023 then they are in for some more trouble.

AMD can't meet demand with Zen3+ and I don't think Zen 4 mobile will fare better from an availability perspective. Intel's fine. They got the whole of 2023 to saturate the market with mobile Raptor Lake.

 

[igor_kavinski]

2024 Intel 4, Intel 3
2025 20A, 18A

That assumes the latter nodes depend on the earlier ones. Maybe they are being developed in parallel by different teams. If so, there is still hope!

 

[DrMrLordX]

mobile Raptor Lake.

To date, most (if not all?) of the 13-series mobile products are just Alder Lake rehashed. That's not going to go over very well. Intel needs Meteor Lake to anchor most of their mobile lineup, especially for 2H 2023.

That's the part I was having hard time believing, that Intel would drop the ball on Meteor Lake and "Intel 4" so badly, that it is postponed to 2024. Shareholders would have to be notified.

Intel 4/7nm hasn't fared well to date. It was supposed to show up ages ago as part of Ponte Vecchio. Intel has already pushed Ponte Vecchio and Granite Rapids off the node. There's obviously something wrong. It's still not rational to conclude that it's so boned that Meteor Lake can't make a 2023 release. Or at least not very kind. Let's give them a shot eh?

 

[Joe NYC]

Intel 4/7nm hasn't fared well to date. It was supposed to show up ages ago as part of Ponte Vecchio. Intel has already pushed Ponte Vecchio and Granite Rapids off the node. There's obviously something wrong. It's still not rational to conclude that it's so boned that Meteor Lake can't make a 2023 release. Or at least not very kind. Let's give them a shot eh?

Exactly. Intel is making pronouncements that the Intel 4 is healthy., so one would assume that it would be production worthy for H2 2023 shipments.

Unless there is some other problem on the design and integration side of the brand new chiplet design

 

[Tigerick]

Intel 14th Gen Meteor Lake CPUs Based on 4nm Node to Begin Production Soon | Hardware Times

Intel’s 14th Gen Meteor Lake processors will be the first to leverage its 4nm process node. Manufactured in Ireland by Fab 34, mass production was planned for the second half of 2022. Company CEO Pat Gelsinger recently toured Fab 34. According to PG, the factory area has doubled, and production...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Mobile Meteor Lake should be coming end of next year in "limited" quantity.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Mobile Meteor Lake should be coming end of next year in "limited" quantity.

Wow that's not good. Also "4nm node" lol sure guys, sure.

 

[Kaluan]

Yeah, for the time being, I don't see Meteor Lake/"Intel 4" having a different first showing than Tiger Lake/"10nm SF". Designs being made, some available but production only picking up after next year's new year.
At which point, AMD will be announcing Strix Point (and possibly Dragon Range successor as well), AKA CES 2024.
And none of this answers what's Intel's successor/answer to Raptor Lake mobile HX/Dragon Range (and it's potential Zen5 succesor). Are there any indication ARL will be ported for DTR mobile?

Either way, if Intel don't bring down power curves for their chips, I don't think I'll ever consider them for my own purchases. I didn't ridicule Bulldozer FX 9000 series years ago just so I can consider such wattage the baseline today.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Tiger Lake/"10nm SF".

To be fair, Intel's own engineering department did label that a 10nm process, so as far as any of us lay people are concerned, it was a 10nm process. Intel 4 was initially a 7nm process with a later name change to fool tech journalists (and it seems to have worked).

As far as availability goes? If they're projecting Meteor Lake to arrive that late, yes, it may as well be a 2024 product. Which is pretty sad. It should have been out by June/July to secure some back-to-school design wins.

 

[Doug S]

Intel 14th Gen Meteor Lake CPUs Based on 4nm Node to Begin Production Soon | Hardware Times

Intel’s 14th Gen Meteor Lake processors will be the first to leverage its 4nm process node. Manufactured in Ireland by Fab 34, mass production was planned for the second half of 2022. Company CEO Pat Gelsinger recently toured Fab 34. According to PG, the factory area has doubled, and production...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Mobile Meteor Lake should be coming end of next year in "limited" quantity.

Does that mean Intel's first Intel 4 CPUs won't begin shipping for another year? Is there anything else on Intel 4 in the meantime? If not, so much for Intel's aggressive process roadmap.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Is there anything else on Intel 4 in the meantime?

Unless you count Loihi 2 and Intel's RISC-V dev board project, nope.

 

[poke01]

Unless you count Loihi 2 and Intel's RISC-V dev board project, nope.

So nothing

 

[Exist50]

Does that mean Intel's first Intel 4 CPUs won't begin shipping for another year? Is there anything else on Intel 4 in the meantime? If not, so much for Intel's aggressive process roadmap.

They've mentioned some networking ASIC once, but I don't remember them saying anything more than this. Could have been moved to Intel 3 as well.

 

[lightisgood]

Intel 14th Gen Meteor Lake CPUs Based on 4nm Node to Begin Production Soon | Hardware Times

Intel’s 14th Gen Meteor Lake processors will be the first to leverage its 4nm process node. Manufactured in Ireland by Fab 34, mass production was planned for the second half of 2022. Company CEO Pat Gelsinger recently toured Fab 34. According to PG, the factory area has doubled, and production...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Mobile Meteor Lake should be coming end of next year in "limited" quantity.

1st source is this (machine translation).
Are there nothing news?

“4nm、3nm”EUV工艺来了 Intel最先进晶圆厂准备就绪

随着13代酷睿的上市，Intel的处理器工艺已经切换到了Intel 7节点上，这是Intel 4年掌握5代CPU工艺中的起点，接下来的还有重头戏，不过生产基地会转向海外，由位于欧洲爱尔兰的Fab 34晶圆厂接任。

news.mydrivers.com

> Intel CEO Kissinger recently revealed on the Internet that he visited the Fab 34 factory last week,
> and the expanded factory area has doubled and has higher capacity, and the team here will deliver Intel's latest process,
> that is, Intel 4, Intel 3 process, equivalent to the 4nm, 3nm nodes of friends.
>
> The Intel 4 process, Intel's first EUV process, will improve transistors' performance per watt by about 20 percent,
> and Intel says the process will be ready for mass production in the second half of this year.