Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[ashFTW]

Interesting slide from MTL/ARL HotChips 34 talk.

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[Geddagod]

Interesting slide from MTL/ARL HotChips 34 talk.

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I don't think it was anything that new. We knew Intel was striving to disaggregate future products regardless. What I think is more interesting about that is the blurred Lunar Lake. The fact that Intel is keeping the wraps on Lunar Lake makes me think it's either A)simply too far into the future for Intel to be sure what they are going to do or B)a revolutionary product that uses a new mixture of CPU tiles, GPU tiles, AI tiles, SOC tiles, that we haven't seen in MTL and ARL before. I think it's a combination of both.

 

[ashFTW]

I don't think it was anything that new. We knew Intel was striving to disaggregate future products regardless. What I think is more interesting about that is the blurred Lunar Lake. The fact that Intel is keeping the wraps on Lunar Lake makes me think it's either A)simply too far into the future for Intel to be sure what they are going to do or B)a revolutionary product that uses a new mixture of CPU tiles, GPU tiles, AI tiles, SOC tiles, that we haven't seen in MTL and ARL before. I think it's a combination of both.

I agree with your interpretation B, that Lunar Lake will likely integrate further IP blocks, on more advanced processes with active bottom tile(s). It will also likely use Foveros Omni to enable different size top die (especially CPU, GPU) while keeping the same bottom die.

The reason I highlighted this slide is due to discussions earlier on the forum about server side disaggregation. It’s my firm belief that Intel is headed to a common such platform for CPU/GPU/xPU (ie Falcon shores) as early as Granite Ridge/Sierra Forest and the GPU after Realto Bridge. Some forum members have denied that such common platform is likely to even happen on the mainstream server product branch.

 

[Exist50]

I don't think it was anything that new. We knew Intel was striving to disaggregate future products regardless. What I think is more interesting about that is the blurred Lunar Lake. The fact that Intel is keeping the wraps on Lunar Lake makes me think it's either A)simply too far into the future for Intel to be sure what they are going to do or B)a revolutionary product that uses a new mixture of CPU tiles, GPU tiles, AI tiles, SOC tiles, that we haven't seen in MTL and ARL before. I think it's a combination of both.

Lunar Lake is supposed to be a 2024 product. For that to be true, Intel has to be essentially done with the design by now, if not already taped out.

As for B, I think Lunar Lake merely would complicate the story they're trying to tell with Meteor Lake.

 

[nicalandia]

I believe he meat Manufactoring Ready at H1 and HVM on H2.

 

[Geddagod]

I believe he meat Manufactoring Ready at H1 and HVM on H2.

View attachment 72347

Seems to lineup with what the leaks are telling us too. Part of the lineup is moved to TSMC 3nm so they can launch on time for around mid 2024, while it seems like the Intel 20A version of ARL isn't going to be available at BEST end of 2024, and more realistically first half of 2025.
For example, it's also heavily suggested that GNR won't be available till mid 2024, and that's ~1 year after Intel 3 is "manufacturing ready" as well.

 

[Geddagod]

MTL-S not showing up until 2024.

 

[S'renne]

View attachment 72490
MTL-S not showing up until 2024.

Is there a roadmap for mobile then? Since MTL is supposed to be mobile focused isn't it?

 

[mikk]

View attachment 72490
MTL-S not showing up until 2024.

As expected I would say. 2023 was always mobile only. Maybe we will see MTL-S+ARL-S together during H2 2024 but not sure. I mean CML-S to RKL-S were 10 months apart and RKL-S to ADL-S only 7 months. It's not always a full year.

 

[Joe NYC]

Lunar Lake is supposed to be a 2024 product. For that to be true, Intel has to be essentially done with the design by now, if not already taped out.

As for B, I think Lunar Lake merely would complicate the story they're trying to tell with Meteor Lake.

If Lunar Lake makes it out in 2024, 2024 will be Intel's busiest year ever, with 3 product releases:
- Meteor Lake
- Arrow Lake
- Lunar Lake
on 3 process technology nodes, all released in one year. Or one every 4 months.

And that's just the client side. On Server side, in 2024, Intel will be releasing:
- Granite Rapids
- Sierra Forest

 

[dullard]

If Lunar Lake makes it out in 2024, 2024 will be Intel's busiest year ever, with 3 product releases:
- Meteor Lake
- Arrow Lake
- Lunar Lake
on 3 process technology nodes, all released in one year. Or one every 4 months.

That is the whole point of the chiplets. They can simply swap out one chiplet for another and have a whole new CPU. Expect many fast releases whenever a new chiplet is available. But, each release will have a lesser impact than before. Instead of all of the CPU getting a node shrink, only a portion of the CPU will get a shrink at a time.

I would think it would be wise for Intel to even lump them into the same numerical category. For example, I think it might be a good idea to have both Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake in the 14000s. Intel has done mixed nodes in the same number system before.

 

[scineram]

View attachment 72490
MTL-S not showing up until 2024.

Wait does this mean LGA1700 gets another generation a processors with the Raptor Lake refresh?

 

[jpiniero]

Wait does this mean LGA1700 gets another generation a processors with the Raptor Lake refresh?

Yeah. The leaked slides suggest they aren't even going to change the chipset.

 

[Glo.]

So hold on for a moment, guys.

Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake mobile are coming 2023 and 2024 respectively?

 

[jpiniero]

So hold on for a moment, guys.

Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake mobile are coming 2023 and 2024 respectively?

Maybe. Course you might be talking about the end of the year and who knows the volume.

 

[Joe NYC]

That is the whole point of the chiplets. They can simply swap out one chiplet for another and have a whole new CPU. Expect many fast releases whenever a new chiplet is available.

That's where I would differ. I would not expect fast releases.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Is there going to be a mobile Arrow Lake? Or will Intel slot in a different product to take over for Meteor Lake?

 

[Glo.]

MTL-P is supposedly single die, and yes, there will be, or rather should be Arrow Lake - P with 384 EUs iGPU, and 8P/16E CPU front.

So it should look like this:
MTL-P 6P/16E/192 EU
ARL-P 8P/16E/384 EU

And both of them should be 14th and 15th generation.

 

[dullard]

Is there going to be a mobile Arrow Lake? Or will Intel slot in a different product to take over for Meteor Lake?

We have this leaked slide of Arrow Lake-P for premium mobile. That doesn't mean there will be low power mobile though.

Intel Arrow Lake-P with 320EU GPU confirmed by a leaked roadmap, targeting to compete with Apple 14" premium laptops - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake-P GPU confirmed feature up to 320EUs Just a few days ago Intel officially confirmed it will launch Arrow Lake architecture by 2024. This successor to Meteor Lake is now confirmed to utilize a combination of three process nodes. It will also take advantage of Intel’s new die...

videocardz.com

 

[Glo.]

We have this leaked slide of Arrow Lake-P for premium mobile. That doesn't mean there will be low power mobile though.

Intel Arrow Lake-P with 320EU GPU confirmed by a leaked roadmap, targeting to compete with Apple 14" premium laptops - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake-P GPU confirmed feature up to 320EUs Just a few days ago Intel officially confirmed it will launch Arrow Lake architecture by 2024. This successor to Meteor Lake is now confirmed to utilize a combination of three process nodes. It will also take advantage of Intel’s new die...

videocardz.com

Intel accidentally releases test driver for DG3 "Elasti" dGPU, Raptor/Meteor/Arrow/Lunar-Lake iGPUs - VideoCardz.com

Intel accidentally provides support for (yet) non-existing architectures A graphics test driver that was not supposed to be published on a public website is now available on the Intel website, as spotted by leaker KOMACHI. Intel NUC Kit 11th Gen driver 30.0.101.9999 a test driver with support...

videocardz.com

So MTL-P 192 EUs, ARL-P - 384 EUs.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

MTL-P is supposedly single die, and yes, there will be, or rather should be Arrow Lake - P with 384 EUs iGPU, and 8P/16E CPU front.

Single die? Is there any indication that not all MTL SKUs will be based on chiplets/tiles?

 

[Glo.]

Single die as

Single die? Is there any indication that not all MTL SKUs will be based on chiplets/tiles?

Single die as in: 6P/16E design, for both mobile and desktop.

Thats what I meant. Not that it is "single die" per se.

 

[OneEng2]

We are all well aware of the horrible debacle of Intels infamous 10nm (Intel 7) that resulted in Intel's 14nm, 14+, 14++, 14+++.

In interviews, Intel has stated that they were too agressive with 10nm and tried to do too many things at once and it bit them......... Ok, fair enough. I can buy that. Up until that moment, Intel was the process king routinely staying 1.5 to 2 die shrinks ahead of the entire rest of the Earth.

What doesn't ring true to my miticously risk adverse engineering manager inside is that Intel is now saying that Meteor Lake will include 1) Tiles, 2) A die shrink, 3) Movement to EUV, and 4) A new architecture.

Anyone but me think that is an awful lot of risk for a single product to be exposed to? I mean, its a good thing that they aren't planning to use such a risky product in a high volume market right? (yes, that was sarcasm).

I also agree with those that said that Intel 3 is going to end up being just Intel 4+ so that Intel can keep the market happy that they are indeed on a new set of rail road tracks.

But lets be clear about this. Intel 4 (7nm) is only process parity with TSMC's 5nm process from a density standard (From here: https://www.granitefirm.com/blog/us/2021/12/28/tsmc-process-roadmap/). I am not certain about how power effecient it is in comparison as TSMC's 5nm process is already in its 5+ stage and has been rung out pretty well.

Now, I am not going to count Intel out here. Anyone that says silly things like that hasn't been watching the decades of history between Intel and AMD that I have. Intel pulled a decent rabbit out of its hat with Alder Lake and Raptor Lake; however, it wasn't without cost. I just bought my daughter (who will be heading off to college next year ) a Dell laptop with an AMD processor in it. You can also get this same model with an Intel processor (12K series vs AMD 5000 series). The biggest difference I saw in independent reviews? The AMD machine which has nearly identical performance gets 4 hours longer battery life. Yep, it wasn't for free.

My last concern is that Intel is laying off engineers. Seems hard to see how they are going to do 3 times the work with less people.

The proof will be in the execution. I never hear about the yields at Intel (unlike all the independent manufacturers who publish their yield rates), they simply say the launch isn't ready and move things back until the process is working better (TSMC just charges an arm and a leg for it while it matures). I would personally be a bit surprised if Intel can get Meteor Lake out in 2023 like they have said, but time will tell.

 

[Joe NYC]

MTL-P is supposedly single die

I don't know where this rumor came from, but would mean another huge duplication of efforts, something Intel can no longer afford...

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Single die as in: 6P/16E design, for both mobile and desktop.

Thats what I meant. Not that it is "single die" per se.

Okay. Well, rumour had it for years that MTL might be Mobile only. The new roadmap seems to support that.
So my current expectation is aligned to many others here that MTL will start Mobile only and might go to the Mainstream DT segment later on (same compute tile), while ARL will take the High-End.