Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[jpiniero]

Core Ultra 200V "Lunar Lake" laptops from Acer and Asus start at €996, according to a new leak - VideoCardz.com

Intel Core Ultra 200V “Lunar Lake” laptops now listed in France Officially, Intel is planning to unveil its first products in the Core Ultra 200 series in ten days. The company did not specify if September 3rd is also the launch date for the series, but given what retailers are doing behind the...

videocardz.com

Appears Lunar Lake models will start around $900. That's for the base model with the Core i5 and 16 GB of ram. Still too high.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

It’s very simple actually, you have questions about Zen5 scores you take that discussion to the Zen5 thread. Read the forum rules if you have more questions.

100% this.

Final warning before I start filling in spaces on ban bingo cards. This is an Intel thread not a versus thread. The amount of AMD talk is way past what is permitted in a vendor thread. You can start your own comparison thread for released products, but not for unreleased ones. Basically keep your chocolate out of their peanut butter.

Mod DAPUNISHER

 

[naukkis]

I base my sayings in numbers while you re left using deffamation if not willfull ignorance or eventually both since i said what are these numbers, but here they are with proportionality respected :

If CPU A score 100 in ST and CPU B score 115 then how is it possible that when using only 6 threads in MT CPU A end being 10% faster..?..

Different cpus have different inter-core latencies. Real MT scaling needs low latency interconnect between cpus- and 9950x based on slow interconnect between different CCDs might very well tank in performance when job is split to two CCD. 9950x might perform better on that test when other CCD is disabled.

 

[dullard]

If you know something about Intel s communications with OEMs please let us know, for the time the general public is aware of nothing and can rely only on past Intel s behaviours.

Intel's past behaviors is that PL2 is fixed in stone and does not change it this late in the game. Arrow Lake PL2 could be different than Raptor Lake PL2. But it isn't changing at the moment like you claim.

And yes, that is also Intel's communications with OEMs. No matter how much you wish it happens, there is no "surprise, those months you took to design a computer, toss those months in the trash, we are changing everything with just weeks to go!". Microcode changes can and do happen in the final weeks. But not massive changes to critical design inputs like PL2.

 

[Philste]

Appears Lunar Lake models will start around $900. That's for the base model with the Core i5 and 16 GB of ram. Still too high.

Yeah, if the Expertbook with the lower Ultra 7 SKU and 32GB already costs 1400€+ I can already see that a top Zenbook S14 config probably costs 1800€+. I hoped if it's good I would get it for like 1300-1400€.

 

[poke01]

Core Ultra 200V "Lunar Lake" laptops from Acer and Asus start at €996, according to a new leak - VideoCardz.com

Intel Core Ultra 200V “Lunar Lake” laptops now listed in France Officially, Intel is planning to unveil its first products in the Core Ultra 200 series in ten days. The company did not specify if September 3rd is also the launch date for the series, but given what retailers are doing behind the...

videocardz.com

Appears Lunar Lake models will start around $900. That's for the base model with the Core i5 and 16 GB of ram. Still too high.

That's for the lowest Lunar too. That i5 is not very performance oriented. You want the Ultra 7.

 

[cebri1]

Yeah, if the Expertbook with the lower Ultra 7 SKU and 32GB already costs 1400€+ I can already see that a top Zenbook S14 config probably costs 1800€+. I hoped if it's good I would get it for like 1300-1400€.

The thinkbook 185H is close to 1800€ so more or less aligned with Meteor Lake I'd say. My guess is that this will probably have higher margins (Intel 4 Ireland vs N3B).

Edit: ThinkBook 13x G4 IMH Intel Evo Core Ultra 9 185H/32GB/1TB SSD/13.5"

https://www.pccomponentes.com/portatil-lenovo-thinkbook-13x-g4-imh-intel-evo-core-ultra-9-185h-32gb-1tb-ssd-135

1799€.

 

[Abwx]

Intel's past behaviors is that PL2 is fixed in stone and does not change it this late in the game. Arrow Lake PL2 could be different than Raptor Lake PL2. But it isn't changing at the moment like you claim.

And yes, that is also Intel's communications with OEMs. No matter how much you wish it happens, there is no "surprise, those months you took to design a computer, toss those months in the trash, we are changing everything with just weeks to go!". Microcode changes can and do happen in the final weeks. But not massive changes to critical design inputs like PL2.

Sometime there s stones that can end being as mellow as butter.

A must read once you have some time left :

Crash landing with announcement or Ryzen panic? Intel painted the specs as they were needed | igor´sLAB

Some of my articles mature like old wine and it’s certainly not wrong to look at them from time to time, even with current references. This is especially true now with regard to the current “drama”…

www.igorslab.de

 

[Tup3x]

That's for the lowest Lunar too. That i5 is not very performance oriented. You want the Ultra 7.

It would have been pretty nice if Ultra 7/9 had eight Skymont cores. Now all different SKUs feels rather pointless. I still wonder what is their main target group for these...

 

[Magio]

Yeah, if the Expertbook with the lower Ultra 7 SKU and 32GB already costs 1400€+ I can already see that a top Zenbook S14 config probably costs 1800€+. I hoped if it's good I would get it for like 1300-1400€.

Isn't ExpertBook, as Asus' enterprise line, typically more expensive than Zenbooks?

Starting a tad below 1k for initial SKUs is what was expected for LNL and it's mostly fine if it delivers on expectations. There'll be cheaper designs later on as always.

 

[jpiniero]

Intel's past behaviors is that PL2 is fixed in stone

That is definitely not true. The board is very much in control of the PL1/2 and OEMs can set it to their whim.

 

[dullard]

Sometime there s stones that can end being as mellow as butter.

A must read once you have some time left :

Crash landing with announcement or Ryzen panic? Intel painted the specs as they were needed | igor´sLAB

Some of my articles mature like old wine and it’s certainly not wrong to look at them from time to time, even with current references. This is especially true now with regard to the current “drama”…

www.igorslab.de

I read through it and I'm not seeing your claim that PL2 was changed with just weeks to go.

So, lets look at the recommended PL2 in your link. Lets start with August 2021. Looks like 253 W.


Ok, now what happened when Raptor Lake launched: Hmm, PL2 is still 253 W.

https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/products/platforms/details/raptor-lake-s/13th-generation-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/processor-line-thermal-and-power-specifications/

Ok, well maybe it changed for the 14th generation: also 253 W. Boy Intel really changed it in the last few weeks!

https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/products/platforms/details/raptor-lake-s/13th-generation-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/011/processor-line-thermal-and-power-specifications/

 

[dullard]

That is definitely not true. The board is very much in control of the PL1/2 and OEMs can set it to their whim.

Of course OEMs can set those values to anything that works for them. The claim that I am debating was that Intel forces changes to PL2 with weeks to go.

Lets say, as Abwx is implying, that Intel will suddenly require PL2 to go up. The OEM designs often won't be able to cope with that. PL2 going down is feasible of course. But Intel suddenly making a major required PL2 change after the chips have been in production and OEMs are making designs? Not happening.

This is the post that I find incorrect:

Guess that currently Intel is devising about the exact power they ll use since at 250W they will have a win only in CB R20/R23 for MT, and a marginal one.

Intel isn't the one devising PL2 at this point in the process. OEMs can, Intel isn't. The Intel recommended PL2 was set a long time ago.

 

[Philste]

Isn't ExpertBook, as Asus' enterprise line, typically more expensive than Zenbooks?

Honestly no clue, i'm not that much into that stuff. I just guessed that Expertbook is more expensive than Vivobook because of being Enterprise. But Zenbook is the premium consumer line and Zenbook S is the Premium ultrathin one within the Zenbook line so i just thought it is eben a bit above Expertbooks. 32GB configuration of Zenbook S16 is 2099€ here.

There'll be cheaper designs later on as always.

I know there will be cheaper options, but some keys of the keyboard of my 5 year old Acer Swift 5 partially stopped working so I need something new in the near future. I wanted to wait for LNL reviews because if the battery life is meaningfully better than everything else on x86 it will be my go to.

And since Acer is not an option anymore for obvious reasons, the Zenbook S14 is the only device that got leaked already. Oh, and I want an OLED btw. S14 basically has all what I want, basically only waiting for reviews if there's a massive dealbreaker in terms of fans or something.

 

[Abwx]

I read through it and I'm not seeing your claim that PL2 was changed with just weeks to go.

So, lets look at the recommended PL2 in your link. Lets start with August 2021. Looks like 253 W.
View attachment 106131

Ok, now what happened when Raptor Lake launched: Hmm, PL2 is still 253 W.
View attachment 106132

https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/products/platforms/details/raptor-lake-s/13th-generation-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/processor-line-thermal-and-power-specifications/

Ok, well maybe it changed for the 14th generation: also 253 W. Boy Intel really changed it in the last few weeks!
View attachment 106133

https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/products/platforms/details/raptor-lake-s/13th-generation-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/011/processor-line-thermal-and-power-specifications/

For the time the leaks say that ARL has a 177W PL2, we ll see how this will end in two months, the recent CB R23 leak tell me that there s few chances that it will be the final PL2, but who knows.

 

[dullard]

For the time the leaks say that ARL has a 177W PL2, we ll see how this will end in two months, the recent CB R23 leak tell me that there s few chances that it will be the final PL2, but who knows.

You originally claimed that Intel is changing PL2 ("Intel is devising about the exact power they ll use") then you claimed PL2 could be 297 W ("They may well set 297W as PL2"). Now you are going with 177 W. I have a hard time following your rapidly altered ideas.

Intel's recommended PL2 is fixed. It isn't currently changing. It may be different than Raptor Lake. I'll accept whatever number you say for discussion purposes, but it isn't currently changing. The 177 W number does match Jaykihn's leak for two of the Arrow Lake-S chips only in baseline mode (the top two 125 W TDP chips). That PL2 number of 177 W has been floating around for nearly a year from DarkmontTech.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710393680098738468

 

[Abwx]

You originally claimed that Intel is changing PL2 ("Intel is devising about the exact power they ll use") then you claimed PL2 could be 297 W ("They may well set 297W as PL2"). Now you are going with 177 W. I have a hard time following your rapidly altered ideas.

The 177W were discussed in this very thread as some people really thought that
such perf/watt improvement at better perfs than the 14900K@253W was possible.

What i m saying is that at least 250W are required for a marginal win in Cinebench R23 and 2024 but hardly in anything else, so how will Intel react, you think that they ll be content with a win only in these CB benches and a tie or so in the non app GB 6.?.

And btw, Jaykihn numbers in GB 5 are about the same as the ones in the recent GB 5 submissions, so the numbers he provided are in line with the final silicon.

 

[dullard]

so how will Intel react

Intel is not reacting, not at this point, not with chips in production and OEMs already designing computers around it. Intel's chance to react ended months ago.

Intel has publicly stated that they aren't having performance wins until 18A and not a clear performance win until 14A.

 

[Abwx]

Intel is not reacting, not at this point, not with chips in production and OEMs already designing computers around it. Intel's chance to react ended months ago.

Intel has publicly stated that they aren't having performance wins until 18A and not a clear performance win until 14A.
View attachment 106135

That s perf/watt win in the slide, not perf win.

Precisely the only thing that can be changed that late are the thermals, at this point it is months that they have done tests at all possible powers, so they know what is possible or not, and fixing the final TPDs 2 months before releasing a product is nothing exceptional, all it require is a bios.

Also it could be different for OEMs and retail market because enthousiasts are looking for pure perfs while OEMs have traditionaly a more cautious approach.

 

[dullard]

That s perf/watt win in the slide, not perf win.

Since the recommended power levels are not changing any more for Arrow Lake, performance/watt and performance are directly proportional.

 

[Magio]

What does a slide about their future nodes have to do with whether they might get performance wins on the product side, especially considering ARL is like 95% going to be on N3B?

 

[Hulk]

Can someone who has 13k/14k processors explain,
is it a thing that Intel CPUs run all cores @ 5.7 mhz in geekbench, or if these are results of OC-ed CPUs ?

GB6 : Intel(R) Core(TM) Ultra 9 285K : 3449 Single-Core Score 23024 Multi-Core Score
GB5 : Intel(R) Core(TM) Ultra 9 285K : 2513 Single-Core Score 28214 Multi-Core Score

According to Techpowerup reviews the 13900K will boost up to 5.5GHz all core given adequate cooling and volts. The 14900K will go to 5.7GHz all core. Anything beyond that is technically overclocked I would think.

 

[Hulk]

I need a new laptop in a bad way. My Surface Laptop 2 has served me well and is still serving me but I'm out of SSD space, trackpad went nuts about a year ago (disabled it), and somehow I cracked the screen. Plus the Skylake quad core is completely overmatched for even light video editing at 4K, Photo/Video AI, and many other apps.

I'm most likely going to buy a LL laptop shortly after launch assuming there are some decent choices. I'll bench the heck out of it and let you all know how it does.

 

[511]

The thinkbook 185H is close to 1800€ so more or less aligned with Meteor Lake I'd say. My guess is that this will probably have higher margins (Intel 4 Ireland vs N3B).

Edit: ThinkBook 13x G4 IMH Intel Evo Core Ultra 9 185H/32GB/1TB SSD/13.5"

https://www.pccomponentes.com/portatil-lenovo-thinkbook-13x-g4-imh-intel-evo-core-ultra-9-185h-32gb-1tb-ssd-135

1799€.

Nope cause intel 4 meteor lake has IDM Margins as well with lunar lake TSMC there is no margin for manufacturing besides packing

 

[jdubs03]

Thoughts on this? Seems quite ambitious. GLC IPC based on GB6 is 511 pts/GHz, so 2.25x is 1150 pts/GHz. 3x is even crazier if that’s 2030 timeframe.
M4 is 833 pts/GHz. To get to around that 1150 would need an 8.5% increase per year.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1f0j0kh/comment/ljt2bqf