Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[mpumalanga]

I had a feeling that Intel 20A would not see the daylight.
Their choice to focus on 18A instead of a internal node with no customers, saving 500mil is right by me.

The explanation that the low defect rates of 18A is leading the acceleration is also fine by me.

I can feel the pressure in this product, they need to bring it to the market no matter what, don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough or whatever the saying is.

Intel was telling anybody, who wanted to listen for the last 3.5 years that 18A will bring "unquestioned leadership".
So they themselves were setting the bar high.
There is indeed pressure there now to deliver.

Whether cancelling the 20A process with arguments, which enjoy the benefits of plausible deniability, I don't know.
No one forced Intel to introduce the 20A process, but they were more than happy to talk about it over the last years.
Now suddenly its a good idea to cancel it.

 

[9949asd]

dude, we ain't getting ultra 3 chips with TSMC N3B, wake up 😁
Too expensive for intel. It's gonna be alder lake and raptor lake at the bottom (or bartlet lake 12+0, if it even comes out to regular people)

Also, ultra 3 was supposed to be 4+4. Because 6+4 is already ultra 5

Intel just said no 20a for ARL. U3 will be only use n3b Now.

 

[9949asd]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1831571711931904103

Also I hear p95 237w 75c was run at air cool. I don’t know that’s too good.

 

[511]

Also I hear p95 237w 75c was run at air cool. I don’t know that’s too good.

Yeah i think the entire heat is concentrated in that N3B compute tile rest are maybe like 20-30W at max

 

[SteinFG]

Intel just said no 20a for ARL. U3 will be only use n3b Now.

I know, and I'm saying that there won't be ultra 3 chip on n3b. That means no ultra 3 chip, at all. In the lower end we're stuck with Alder, Raptor, and probably Bartlet.

 

[9949asd]

I know, and I'm saying that there won't be ultra 3 chip on n3b. That means no ultra 3 chip, at all. In the lower end we're stuck with Alder, Raptor, and probably Bartlet.

Need to wait till next year than we will know.

 

[dullard]

I know, and I'm saying that there won't be ultra 3 chip on n3b. That means no ultra 3 chip, at all. In the lower end we're stuck with Alder, Raptor, and probably Bartlet.

There are recent rumors of Ultra 3 Arrow Lake chips: https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-r...ultra-3-205-215-arrow-lake-desktop-processors

My personal bet is that the Ultra 3 Arrow Lake chips will be the 65 W Meteor Lake i5 chips rebranded (135H and 125H become the 215 and 205). All Intel would need to do is disable an E core cluster and use the power that would have gone to that cluster to bump up the clock speeds. If I am correct, then that puts the Ultra 3 chips on Intel 4.

 

[Gideon]

Oof if these are the yields for a 100mm2 chip on Intel 3

https://twitter.com/x/status/1831598153692545468

https://twitter.com/x/status/1831621821894160887

 

[fastandfurious6]

No performance boost from on-package ram, only energy efficiency

must be a lot of efficiency to be worth so much die area

Also, seems like lunar has no perf gains above 25-30W, so strix is still good overall.

strange, all their newer nodes have that issue, they cap out at ULW levels

in contrast their older nodes are beefed up to 300w (raptor) to keep up 🤣

 

[maddie]

Oof if these are the yields for a 100mm2 chip on Intel 3

https://twitter.com/x/status/1831598153692545468

https://twitter.com/x/status/1831621821894160887

Oof is being generous. This is horrible. 62% no defect yield on 1 EUV layer of several and then the rest of the steps post EUV. When you compound the layer defect rates, can they even produce a profitable die?

 

[SteinFG]

I was confused a bit about intel and their 2025 stuff, decided to make a table for myself, wanna share

 

[maddie]

I was confused a bit about intel and their 2025 stuff, decided to make a table for myself, wanna shareView attachment 106884

How do you determine the cost ratings? Are you simply assuming that an indigenous node is cheaper than external one?

 

[SteinFG]

indigenous node

😄

Are you simply assuming

Yes, I think it's a great assumption. It's more profitable for intel to run their fabs than to let them idle and do nothing.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Interesting how a year ago, this roadmap was leaked, and it seems like intel was already prepared to for 20A to not be available. Nothing here is reliant on Intel 20A. Purple is N3, Light blue is intel 4 + N6, and dark blue is intel 7.

The only product that was reliant on 20A was Non-K i3 and i5 on desktop if I recall.

edit: RPL-U and RPL-H is just ADL-U and ADL-H chips with no changes, so intel will be milking 2+8 snd 6+8 alder lake for 4 years straight (2022, 2023, 2024, 2025), if not more. Alder lake forever!
View attachment 106875

20A was never for Mobile. So it never interfered with Mobile ARL plans.

dude, we ain't getting ultra 3 chips with TSMC N3B, wake up 😁
Too expensive for intel. It's gonna be alder lake and raptor lake at the bottom (or bartlet lake 12+0, if it even comes out to regular people)

Also, ultra 3 was supposed to be 4+4. Because 6+4 is already ultra 5

Raichu said that there's a 4+4 Ultra 3. That should be a cutdown 6+8 die that will be fully fabbed on N3B now.

 

[511]

Lunar goodness

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

Lunar goodness

I wonder how much of the battery life advantage over the Zenbook S16 HX370 that is otherwise very similar is due to the LCD vs. OLED display? I can't wait for some near identical/like laptops so we can get a better idea exactly how the CPU's/platforms compare.

 

[511]

I wonder how much of the battery life advantage over the Zenbook S16 HX370 that is otherwise very similar is due to the LCD vs. OLED display? I can't wait for some near identical/like laptops so we can get a better idea exactly how the CPU's/platforms compare.

Yup zenbook uses oled but mac is mini led IPS

 

[Hitman928]

I wonder how much of the battery life advantage over the Zenbook S16 HX370 that is otherwise very similar is due to the LCD vs. OLED display? I can't wait for some near identical/like laptops so we can get a better idea exactly how the CPU's/platforms compare.

Yeah, LCD vs OLED actually makes it not that impressive of a battery life improvement. We'll see how other models turn out (hopefully better), but I'd say this is actually a disappointing result given that battery life was supposed to be one of the primary strengths for LNL.

 

[techjunkie123]

Yup zenbook uses oled but mac is mini led IPS

Mac pros are mini LED IPS with high refresh rate ... Mac airs are just regular IPS panels at 60 Hz..

 

[511]

Mac pros are mini LED IPS with high refresh rate ... Mac airs are just regular IPS panels at 60 Hz..

60hz is just cheating at this point lol iirc LNL strix have has 120hz display

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/yoga/yoga-slim-series/yoga-slim-7i-gen-9-aura-edition-15-inch-intel/len101y0051?clickid=WIz2zxTwpxyPUrhy9QQ40yE6UkC165xZPX1GVI0&irgwc=1&PID=1442537&acid=ww%3Aaffiliate%3Abv0as6&cid=us%3Aaffiliate%3Acxsaam

$1400 for 32GB 258V I don't know what to say tbh not that expensive but not cheap as well

 

[DavidC1]

I was confused a bit about intel and their 2025 stuff, decided to make a table for myself, wanna shareView attachment 106884

Lunarlake has two tiles not three. Only IO is separated.

Lunar goodness

All garbage. Barely 10 hours with a 70WHr battery. Rarely any of them are using FHD displays so we're basically back to pre-Haswell level efficiency.

The gaming results are beating Strix at least, and the thermals/power is better.

 

[mikk]

Pre-Haswell would struggle a lot in a current test like this. Light load is high load for Pre-Haswell, no hardware decoding and light browsing is more likely heavy browsing on Haswell.

 

[poke01]

Lunar goodness

Good to see.

 

[dullard]

All garbage. Barely 10 hours with a 70WHr battery. Rarely any of them are using FHD displays so we're basically back to pre-Haswell level efficiency.

That test was ran with 30 W power average. The same chip could run that same system with about half that power--probably even less. Performance would be worse, but you'd get at least 20 hours.

Dell XPS 13 is getting almost 30 hours FHD+ video playback with Lunar Lake with I think is a 55 Whr battery. https://www.tomsguide.com/computing...longest-laptop-battery-life-ever-what-we-know

 

[DavidC1]

Pre-Haswell would struggle a lot in a current test like this. Light load is high load for Pre-Haswell, no hardware decoding and light browsing is more likely heavy browsing on Haswell.

I'm not talking about specialized accelerators added in the later generations. They could have took Sandy Bridge and added those too, but that wouldn't have addressed the lack of fundamental efficiency gains.

The last big gain was with Haswell, and before that it was Pentium M when they brought idle down by introducing dynamic speedstep. Before that TDP was more correlated with battery life.

According to Dave's test he's talking about 10-20% gain over Meteorlake as some big deal. There's nothing to be excited about based on his tests. My 2017 Yoga does 7-8W too with heavy browsing.

That test was ran with 30 W power average. The same chip could run that same system with about half that power. Performance would be worse, but you'd get ~20 hours.

??!? Think about what you are saying. You can't get 10 hours on a 70WHr battery with 30W power average. It's 7W average.