Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[A///]

I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who). Dr. Ian reported that the engineers who had worked on AVX-512 on ADL were taken aback and pissed when they learned that AVX-512 was getting disabled post launch.

avx512 also existed on lakefield and was disabled. it's an issue intel keeps working on. it's not a decision intel took light to disable it. if Intel and microsoft couldn't figure out how to get it worked despite workingly closely together then it becomes a time sink, and any additional problems beyond their scope that irritates customers is a black mark for the brand. crestmont on mtl is not going to have it but it may be available beginning with arrow lake because arrow lake dumps crestmont for skymont which lunar lake will be using too iirc. Panther lake is too far out for us to know anything reliably about much like nova lake that comes after that's only been mentioned a few times by rumor bs'ers.

 

[A///]

Very interesting. What kind of calculation was that? Would you be able to share a sample sheet without any confidential data?

no need to. excel introduced a automated tool long ago called analyze data which took data points and crunched them, but with the ai code it crunches the data faster and can take multiple data points. this is the accountant's description and he could have been lying but I spent less time in his office than prior years. my guess it uses a more modern instruction set ms took advantage of. idk if it qualifies as ai, but that's what m$ claim. M$ also recently said they plan to incorporate ai code into their software. beyond the photo prettyfying bs for windows 11 they have plans on leveraging future hardware for future windows not discussed.
now the oldy in me can only assume intel, their competitor and microsoft took a look at a fruit named company that began incorporating ai and neural engines in their products several years ago that paid off and they finally got off their asses and realised it may be benefiical to them too to stay ahead in the big game we call consumerism.

we've seen software based ai before if you know of reimaging programs by a company with the name of a jewel i forget which. hw based ai has been expensive by natural as a standalone product vs incorporated like in a phone for a long time but we're beginning to see specialised products that are affordable for people like you and me like amd xilinx's new vulveo ai based hardware video encoder that is only around 1500 usd. that is progress because previous cards of that caliper used to cost much more at least twice and did less.

 

[igor_kavinski]

no need to. excel introduced a automated tool long ago called analyze data which took data points and crunched them, but with the ai code it crunches the data faster and can take multiple data points. this is the accountant's description and he could have been lying but I spent less time in his office than prior years.

Thanks!

I found this:

Excited to learn more about this feature. Hope it can help me

 

[A///]

Thanks!

I found this:

Excited to learn more about this feature. Hope it can help me

I've been doing some light research into how current hardware accelerators work including gpus in non gaming enviros like software leveraging cuda cores for photogammetry which I learned about last week on this forum thanks to a knid forum member who walked me through it all. All very interesting stuff I didn't know what possible on normal hardware.

 

[Exist50]

I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who).

AVX-512 was only ever going to work on the chips without E-cores (either disabled in BIOS, or physically not present). They probably decided to disable it to avoid having any feature regression going up their SKU stack.

It makes no sense to take AVX-512 away, just to make your puny cores work.

In what world is AVX-512 more beneficial for consumers than more cores/MT performance? It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...

Progress has taken a step back because of Intel's bone headed decision. AMD added AVX-512 so developers had an incentive to explore it further for use in their software since they wouldn't have to worry about implementing a feature only for Intel users and not AMD users. But now they won't explore using this feature coz the latest Intel CPUs don't have it anymore. When's the last time some developer went out of their way to make something run better on AMD CPUs? Intel disabled the BIOS option on purpose. If they can't have it, they won't let AMD enjoy it either. They know the majority of developers think Intel first AMD second.

 

[Exist50]

Progress has taken a step back because of Intel's bone headed decision.

I don't remember you saying the same when AMD chose not to support it for years.

Intel disabled the BIOS option on purpose. If they can't have it, they won't let AMD enjoy it either.

Please do explain how Intel disabling AVX-512 on a fraction of Intel CPUs deprives AMD users of that feature? No mainstream use case was ever going to design around the ADL 6+0 die in particular.

And sooner or later, this will be solved. No way Intel's going to waste all the software effort they put into AVX-512. Either they'll bring it to E-cores, or define 256b versions of the new ops. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that takes till after Skymont.

 

[A///]

AVX-512 was only ever going to work on the chips without E-cores (either disabled in BIOS, or physically not present). They probably decided to disable it to avoid having any feature regression going up their SKU stack.

The irony intel had with this is they did offer avx512 on Rocket Lake, which is best left forgotten as it was a regression on multiple fronts.

In what world is AVX-512 more beneficial for consumers than more cores/MT performance? It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...

This is one of those rare times where you and i see eye to eye with each there. as it stands it's a very niche feature if you work in a field that uses softwae that can take advantage of that instruction set and you work from home or company was too cheap to buy higher end hardware. for average joe users the only reason it would be beneficial is what i mentioned earlier, console game emulation that sees some improvement from avx512 being present although I'm certain better future uarchs and brute power would invalidate this improvement.

i don't see major software ever utilising the power of avx512 and thus it feels like amd wasted silicon space on something that isn't going to be worth for maybe 98% of their consumers for mainstream desktop. I'd like to be proven wrong by hard statistics but I firmly believe only 2% utilise avx512 for scientific workloads discounting any hobbyist folding regime.

 

[A///]

And sooner or later, this will be solved. No way Intel's going to waste all the software effort they put into AVX-512. Either they'll bring it to E-cores, or define 256b versions of the new ops. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that takes till after Skymont.

route of least resistance and budget spend imo.

 

[A///]

there is an added benefit to a larger socket size for both intel and amd if they both went that direction to hold more compute chiplets if you think about it, more complex install be damned.

 

[deasd]

I don't remember you saying the same when AMD chose not to support it for years.

Please do explain how Intel disabling AVX-512 on a fraction of Intel CPUs deprives AMD users of that feature? No mainstream use case was ever going to design around the ADL 6+0 die in particular.

And sooner or later, this will be solved. No way Intel's going to waste all the software effort they put into AVX-512. Either they'll bring it to E-cores, or define 256b versions of the new ops. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that takes till after Skymont.

i don't see major software ever utilising the power of avx512 and thus it feels like amd wasted silicon space on something that isn't going to be worth for maybe 98% of their consumers for mainstream desktop. I'd like to be proven wrong by hard statistics but I firmly believe only 2% utilise avx512 for scientific workloads discounting any hobbyist folding regime.

Maybe some application just start using avx512 while guys don't realize? In Zen4 review TPU tested Ryujinx emulator with avx512 patches from last year,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574831436942774297

AI learning like Topaz Gigapixel also has great boost when utilizing avx512, some old data like 11900k didn't have that boost due to older version being used in old review.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TopazLabs/comments/xok165

and the way amd implementing AVX512 is to use existed dual 256bit pipeline that has no space waste which is clever move. But Intel side use 512bit pipeline inside P cores while leave E cores with even no native 256bit pipeline support which mess up the avx512 support.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I don't remember you saying the same when AMD chose not to support it for years.

They had better things to do at the time. Like kicking Intel's behind with Threadripper and Zen 3

I'm more furious that Intel took away an option that they provided at ADL launch. That's the stupidest decision ever and could only be made by a dumb executive.

Keep the option in BIOS and make it as obscure as possible to dissuade people from using it. I think they got more concerned that people were turning off E-cores to keep AVX-512 active and to avoid hetereogenous core shenanigans. They basically forced everyone to taste their E-cores, like bitter medicine.

 

[A///]

not for intel or amd but I'd rather use puget's benches than tpu. emulators are great but the market for them is small. ime most people who use topaz or similar daily are running much higher end systems than flagship mainstream where avx512 already exists.

Topaz AI: CPU & GPU Performance Analysis

Topaz AI is known for how exceptionally well they can iomprove images and videos, but they can be very hardware intensive. Exactly what CPU and GPU will give you the best performance?

www.pugetsystems.com

I'm not sure most hobbyists are using topaz's products daily for this to matter in the extent which you are attempting to portray it as but topaz carries a high sales price and a high renewal fee, each coming with one year of ugrades otherwise you can buy once with a year of upgrades and keep that version forever missing out on new features.

 

[eek2121]

It's not that I don't think they can it's that I don't see the cost vs benefit basis of it. Crestmont, which comes after Gracemont, is not expected to have AVX512 either. For Intel the time and energy spent implementing AVX512 on both p and e cores and making sure they communicate with the OS without hiccup under Linux or Windows is a large money and time glut when they can not include AVX512. If I had to pull a number out of my rear I'd say less than 2% of general consumers benefit from AVX512. My understanding is the benefit general consumers will see from AVX512 is in retro game emulation which can't be discussed at length due to it being gray area piracy.

AI is going to become a not-insignificant part of client computing in the future. AVX-512 helps accelerate certain things related to AI. Therefore, if Intel wants to be a part of the future they need to get on board.

I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who). Dr. Ian reported that the engineers who had worked on AVX-512 on ADL were taken aback and pissed when they learned that AVX-512 was getting disabled post launch. It makes no sense to take AVX-512 away, just to make your puny cores work. It feels like they forced their decision down everyone's throats and took an option away from enthusiasts while also making their CPU look lacking compared to Zen 4.

Intel pulls stuff like this all the time. Intel and AMD often have unused, incomplete, or obsolete settings exposed via the UEFI. It has nothing to do with being rush.

 

[Kocicak]

I'm more furious that Intel took away an option that they provided at ADL launch. That's the stupidest decision ever and could only be made by a dumb executive.
...
They basically forced everyone to taste their E-cores, like bitter medicine.

You cannot support a feature that melts your products.

Almost everybody loves E-cores. And who does not just needs some more time to understand.

 

[A///]

AI is going to become a not-insignificant part of client computing in the future. AVX-512 helps accelerate certain things related to AI. Therefore, if Intel wants to be a part of the future they need to get on board.

For client side you're better off leveraging the igpu or gpu for those simd instructions. Then there's all the xilinx ip that would allow amd to bypass all of that noise in the first place, altera for Intel. Not long ago it didn't make sense to implement those in a client side processor because why was the main reason and cost being a significant factor. Time passes it gets cheaper. It took apple to show them all it was a viable direction. avx512 is not some magical bean you jacked from jack's palm when he wasn't looking. There are more efficient avenues to increase performance. Expect some major changes in x86 design beginning a few generations from now. avx512 as popular as it is now will take a back seat by then.

 

[A///]

Almost everybody loves E-cores. And who does not just needs some more time to understand.

i myself thought it was stupid until I had some personal time with a 12 gen system which sounds very wrong when I phrase it like that but in my limited testing with a 16 core 12 gen it operates nicely if you minimise an active project only to see the processing get handed off and you can play a game or work on another project up front without any issues. core control should get better over time due to windows updates and better scheduling. you can't one and done it like most people assume.

 

[ondma]

Progress has taken a step back because of Intel's bone headed decision. AMD added AVX-512 so developers had an incentive to explore it further for use in their software since they wouldn't have to worry about implementing a feature only for Intel users and not AMD users. But now they won't explore using this feature coz the latest Intel CPUs don't have it anymore. When's the last time some developer went out of their way to make something run better on AMD CPUs? Intel disabled the BIOS option on purpose. If they can't have it, they won't let AMD enjoy it either. They know the majority of developers think Intel first AMD second.

Or maybe it is simply because their cpus run hot and use too much power already. Naw, that would be too simple. Much better to infer some malicious motive. Lots of projection in this post, young Padawan.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Or maybe it is simply because their cpus run hot and use too much power already.

People can use 420mm AIOs to tame the heat. If AVX-512 had burned an ADL CPU, it would have made news.

 

[Exist50]

Maybe some application just start using avx512 while guys don't realize? In Zen4 review TPU tested Ryujinx emulator with avx512 patches from last year,

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574831436942774297

AI learning like Topaz Gigapixel also has great boost when utilizing avx512, some old data like 11900k didn't have that boost due to older version being used in old review.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TopazLabs/comments/xok165

View attachment 79437


and the way amd implementing AVX512 is to use existed dual 256bit pipeline that has no space waste which is clever move. But Intel side use 512bit pipeline inside P cores while leave E cores with even no native 256bit pipeline support which mess up the avx512 support.

AVX-512 certainly has some meaningful and valid use cases, but the suggestion was that Intel should abandon hybrid in order to support it. That seems like a losing tradeoff in the vast majority of cases.

 

[A///]

Getting HT to work on the e cores, imho, is a lot more important than avx512, especially as intel plans based on rumors, to leverage altera among other acquisitionary ip into their future hardware. avx512 while legitimate and having a use has sadly become a buzzword in consumer computing and I'm exaggerating its commonality there.

 

[Hulk]

Getting HT to work on the e cores, imho, is a lot more important than avx512, especially as intel plans based on rumors, to leverage altera among other acquisitionary ip into their future hardware. avx512 while legitimate and having a use has sadly become a buzzword in consumer computing and I'm exaggerating its commonality there.

I asked IntelUser2000 about adding HT to the E cores a while back and he said something to the effect that they weren't designed with HT in mind and it won't happen.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I'm thinking Intel will release (or announce) 14th gen MTL mobile CPUs (U-series) this year and also 14th gen desktop CPUs based on RPL refresh. Is there any reason to think RPL refresh will be called 13th gen instead? Coffee Lake Refresh was called 9th gen so I think history will be repeated.

 

[A///]

I asked IntelUser2000 about adding HT to the E cores a while back and he said something to the effect that they weren't designed with HT in mind and it won't happen.

Those are some dire claims. Intel for the last five or six years now has found itself with its pants down. If rumors resolve and AMD does incorporate smaller cores into their mainstream design and those are SMT while offering a wide gap in performance, less power usage and better thermals Intel will be slow to react. The point I'm attempting to drive home is Intel has decided and claimed many talking points in the past only to go back on them or done as they spoke against.

I wouldn't say Intel will bring it, but I also wouldn't say they wouldn't ever bring it or haven't entertained the idea and kept it under wraps. Is Intel going to take the proverbial pole from AMD for another five to six years while their entire product stack gets outclassed by their smaller competitor? Intel can only add on so many e cores before it becomes a drain on resources and affects stability for the end user, and they're more limited with p cores. AMD isn't in the clear either.

Fun surprises indeed.

 

[A///]

I'm thinking Intel will release (or announce) 14th gen MTL mobile CPUs (U-series) this year and also 14th gen desktop CPUs based on RPL refresh. Is there any reason to think RPL refresh will be called 13th gen instead? Coffee Lake Refresh was called 9th gen so I think history will be repeated.

8th to 9th was very different. The core and thread count changed quite a bit. I don't recall if it was down to fusing off or a design change. I can see why your mind is going to that because of the naming rumor article from a few days ago. The only semi confirmed change is larger cache. Intel could name it the 13950K to troll AMD. The MTL processors will have L4 but that L4 is blocked off from the igpu from what I saw this morning. MTL ARL are the two most confusing releases because they've been discussed at length for a long time without any concrete info.