Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[jpiniero]

You're placing too much emphasis on rumors being true and then parlaying that speculation into real timelines.

It definitely seems like there is nothing between Raptor Lake Refresh and Arrow Lake on desktop. And Arrow Lake looks like 2025. It wouldn't be the end of the world if RLR ends up being Q4 2023 and Arrow Lake desktop in Q2 2025.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel Processors

Check end-of-life, release policy and support schedule for Intel Processors.

endoflife.date

Seems like Intel prefers to release something for the holiday buying season. So RPL-R should be released in the SEP-NOV timeframe this year and next year, they gotta put out SOMETHING in the same timeframe or there will be lost sales and someone's head will need to be served up on a platter to appease the investors.

 

[mikk]

It definitely seems like there is nothing between Raptor Lake Refresh and Arrow Lake on desktop. And Arrow Lake looks like 2025. It wouldn't be the end of the world if RLR ends up being Q4 2023 and Arrow Lake desktop in Q2 2025.

Arrow Lake-S looks like 2024 and Arrow Lake-P looks like 2025. We have seen this not long time ago when ADL-S launched earlier than ADL-P. This time however desktop and notebook might use a different process node.

 

[jpiniero]

Arrow Lake-S looks like 2024 and Arrow Lake-P looks like 2025. We have seen this not long time ago when ADL-S launched earlier than ADL-P. This time however desktop and notebook might use a different process node.

Well if the desktop product after Arrow Lake isn't coming until 2026, it only sort of makes sense that Arrow Lake on desktop is in 2025. But 2024 for K only could happen I guess.

The question I guess would be if they are fabbing the CPU tile at TSMC, presumably they would want to use N3E. I'm not sure the timing would work out for any time sooner than 2025.

 

[Exist50]

Lunar Lake

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638759662207094786

I'm surprised no one has remarked on the chiplet implementation quite different from MTL/ARL.

 

[Markfw]

I'm surprised no one has remarked on the chiplet implementation quite different from MTL/ARL.

Intel using an AMD IGP ??? Does not seem real.

Actually that says ATI, not even AMD. Sounds like its a photoshop'ed image.

The exact image is here: from Dec 2001

ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 Specs

ATI M7, 280 MHz, 2 Pixel Shaders, 0 Vertex Shaders, 2 TMUs, 1 ROPs, 32 MB DDR, 200 MHz, 64 bit

www.techpowerup.com

 

[mikk]

Well if the desktop product after Arrow Lake isn't coming until 2026, it only sort of makes sense that Arrow Lake on desktop is in 2025. But 2024 for K only could happen I guess.

The question I guess would be if they are fabbing the CPU tile at TSMC, presumably they would want to use N3E. I'm not sure the timing would work out for any time sooner than 2025.

I haven't seen any trustable roadmap till 2026 beside a selfmade one we cannot verify. I think Intels usual roadmap only goes 5 quarters in advance. Keep in mind there is no rule that Intel launches a new generation every 12 months which is why we get refresh releases with little or no changes occasionally. With your logic Intel shouldn't have released Raptor Lake in 2022 given that ARL-S might come ~2 years after this (you are claiming 2.5-3 years).

 

[msj10]

I'm surprised no one has remarked on the chiplet implementation quite different from MTL/ARL.

my guess is the Big tile is CPU+SOC, Bottom left is GPU tile and Top left is IO.

 

[jpiniero]

With your logic Intel shouldn't have released Raptor Lake in 2022 given that ARL-S might come ~2 years after this (you are claiming 2.5-3 years).

It wouldn't be that long because of Raptor Lake Refresh.

 

[Exist50]

Intel using an AMD IGP ??? Does not seem real.

Actually that says ATI, not even AMD. Sounds like its a photoshop'ed image.

The exact image is here: from Dec 2001

ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 Specs

ATI M7, 280 MHz, 2 Pixel Shaders, 0 Vertex Shaders, 2 TMUs, 1 ROPs, 32 MB DDR, 200 MHz, 64 bit

www.techpowerup.com

That seems to just be the leaker jokingly referencing a similar-looking arrangement. I mean the pic on the left.

 

[A///]

It definitely seems like there is nothing between Raptor Lake Refresh and Arrow Lake on desktop. And Arrow Lake looks like 2025. It wouldn't be the end of the world if RLR ends up being Q4 2023 and Arrow Lake desktop in Q2 2025.

Intel is not going to let AMD take control for an entire year plus jp. You know that, I know that. amd is still in shark mode.

 

[mikk]

It wouldn't be that long because of Raptor Lake Refresh.

It's a refresh and nothing new. They could do the same for Arrow Lake if the gap to Panther Lake is too big. Raptor Lake to Arrow Lake isn't 1 year.

 

[Exist50]

my guess is the Big tile is CPU+SOC, Bottom left is GPU tile and Top left is IO.

And if I said the top left doesn't exist?

 

[jpiniero]

It's a refresh and nothing new.

Which is fine. Just as long as it's called 14th Gen... OEMs will have to be satisfied with that.

Raptor Lake to Arrow Lake isn't 1 year.

But it's not Raptor Lake. It's Raptor Lake Refresh. Different product.

 

[msj10]

And if I said the top left doesn't exist?

so one die is CPU+SOC+IO and the other is GPU?

btw according to the twitter leaker Lunar Lake is 4+4 which is a change from the 2+8 in MTL and ADL

 

[uzzi38]

And if I said the top left doesn't exist?

Uh that seems pretty poorly phrased.

Because I'm pretty sure there are 3 tiles that look just like the image earlier up in the chain. It's not the existence of the left tile that's the issue, it's the existence of an I/O tile.

 

[Exist50]

Uh that seems pretty poorly phrased.

Because I'm pretty sure there are 3 tiles that look just like the image earlier up in the chain. It's not the existence of the left tile that's the issue, it's the existence of an I/O tile.

No, my wording was deliberate. Pretty sure there are only two top dies. Which would make the third just structural silicon, if it even exists.

 

[ashFTW]

No, my wording was deliberate. Pretty sure there are only two top dies. Which would make the third just structural silicon, if it even exists.

I assume the base tile is no longer passive.

 

[Exist50]

I assume the base tile is no longer passive.

I doubt that's changed from Meteor Lake.

 

[IntelUser2000]

I doubt that's changed from Meteor Lake.

Lunar Lake uses the same core uarch as Arrowlake. I bet you it's like Core M saying it's "architected for low power" but it came out to be lot less significant than they said it would.

They made you get pretty excited for not much: https://www.anandtech.com/show/8355/intel-broadwell-architecture-preview/4

Lunar Lake = Arrowlake+ capped at low power?

 

[Exist50]

Lunar Lake uses the same core uarch as Arrowlake. I bet you it's like Core M saying it's "architected for low power" but it came out to be lot less significant than they said it would.

They made you get pretty excited for not much: https://www.anandtech.com/show/8355/intel-broadwell-architecture-preview/4

Lunar Lake = Arrowlake+ capped at low power?

Despite using the same CPU cores, Lunar Lake is an entirely different beast from Arrow Lake. It's probably the Intel product I'm most excited/curious about.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Despite using the same CPU cores, Lunar Lake is an entirely different beast from Arrow Lake. It's probably the Intel product I'm most excited/curious about.

I believe you without much question in most things but both Lunar Lake and Royal core claims I take it with healthy dose of skepticism.

Actually I am hopeful for LNL, and my attitude towards Royal is "show me".

Why? First because I've been burnt enough by those claims in the past, and revolutionary architectures are revolutionary in that it's not practical to be used. The architecture has to be similar enough to not be alienated by existing code and balanced enough that weaknesses don't drag down the rest.

 

[Exist50]

I believe you without much question in most things but both Lunar Lake and Royal core claims I take it with healthy dose of skepticism.

Actually I am hopeful for LNL, and my attitude towards Royal is "show me".

Why? First because I've been burnt enough by those claims in the past, and revolutionary architectures are revolutionary in that it's not practical to be used. The architecture has to be similar enough to not be alienated by existing code and balanced enough that weaknesses don't drag down the rest.

I get it. Certainly can't blame you for skepticism. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and all that. Just know that I am not misleading you, and I do not espouse these positions without good reason.

In the meantime, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Time will reveal all.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

And Lunar Lake should be released in what year? 2026 or later?

 

[Tigerick]

And Lunar Lake should be released in what year? 2026 or later?

Should be first half of 2025. MILD mentioned that Intel might be canceling ARL U/M to push up Lunar Lake release which make sense if TDP is lower than ARL