Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Tigerick]

Guys, I have changed the the title of this thread to include discussions of Lunar Lake. Seems lIke LNL and ARL share lots of CPU architectures. GPU wise, there is rumor of integrated of Xe2 Battlemage graphics engine. And I mean integration of CPU & GPU within same die to save some power.

We will see how much power MTL-M would consume. Intel mentioned about 5W is only for tCPU which I thought would be enough for 2P+8E CPU. We do not know exact figures for SoC, IOE and tGPU. My guess would be around 20W for 4 tiles to function simultaneously.

That's why LNL being designed with different packaging in order to reduce power consumption.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Intel is not going to let AMD take control for an entire year plus jp.

They may not have a choice. They've already "let" AMD take control in the server and workstation space. May as well let them take control everywhere else.

 

[mikk]

But it's not Raptor Lake. It's Raptor Lake Refresh. Different product.

It's not a new generation. If there is a too big gap they could easily launch ARL-S refresh late 2025 with 100 Mhz more, it's no difference.

 

[poke01]

Despite using the same CPU cores, Lunar Lake is an entirely different beast from Arrow Lake. It's probably the Intel product I'm most excited/curious about.

That Twitter photo is similar to M1. Lunar lake has onpackage memory or unified memory. This will redefine Intel's ultrabooks. If you used an ARM notebook, you willl notice the crazy standby time and how long the battery lasts and I am hoping that Intel will achieve that Lunar Lake while also being a powerhouse in its class.

To put Intel back on the map for business laptops and for mindshare Lunar Lake has to succeed. Apple used a simliar marketing approach, the M1 was efficient but also powerful. Intel has to show that it can also do the same.

 

[Glo.]

That Twitter photo is similar to M1. Lunar lake has onpackage memory or unified memory. This will redefine Intel's ultrabooks. If you used an ARM notebook, you willl notice the crazy standby time and how long the battery lasts and I am hoping that Intel will achieve that Lunar Lake while also being a powerhouse in its class.

To put Intel back on the map for business laptops and for mindshare Lunar Lake has to succeed. Apple used a simliar marketing approach, the M1 was efficient but also powerful. Intel has to show that it can also do the same.

View attachment 78650

LNL is Intel's M1 - type product.

 

[jpiniero]

It's not a new generation.

Why wouldn't it be? They've done the +100 mhz and called it a new generation.

 

[igor_kavinski]

LNL is Intel's M1 - type product.

By then, Apple will be on M3 or maybe even M4.

 

[BionicSquash]

No, my wording was deliberate. Pretty sure there are only two top dies. Which would make the third just structural silicon, if it even exists.

You are indeed correct, the smallest die in top left is dummy silicon. The biggest one has both the CPU and iGPU + memory controller

 

[BionicSquash]

By then, Apple will be on M3 or maybe even M4.

They said it's M1 type product, not M1 competitor.

 

[Tigerick]

You are indeed correct, the smallest die in top left is dummy silicon. The biggest one has both the CPU and iGPU + memory controller

So, we are back to RPL-U design with CPU + PCH?

 

[jpiniero]

You are indeed correct, the smallest die in top left is dummy silicon. The biggest one has both the CPU and iGPU + memory controller

Sounds pretty monolithic unless the base die is an active die.

 

[BionicSquash]

So, we are back to RPL-U design with CPU + PCH?
View attachment 78651

Yup, but All PCIE and other IO stuff except for memory controller are in the IOD.

 

[jpiniero]

Yup, but All PCIE and other IO stuff except for memory controller are in the IOD.

Sounds big. I take it this is fabbed at TSMC.

 

[BionicSquash]

Sounds big. I take it this is fabbed at TSMC.

Yes

 

[Tigerick]

Yup, but All PCIE and other IO stuff except for memory controller are in the IOD.

Thanks for info. Below is Alder Lake U diagram, for simplification Intel would just add in 2 P cores, remove 4 E cores, change graphics engine and add in AIE, then use TSMC's N3 process to make M1 killer?

 

[BionicSquash]

Thanks for info. Below is Alder Lake U diagram, for simplification Intel would just add in 2 P cores, remove 4 E cores, change graphics engine and add in AIE, then use TSMC's N3 process to make M1 killer?
View attachment 78652

That is the gist of it yea

 

[Exist50]

That is the gist of it yea

At a high level, that might suffice, but it glosses over an awful lot. In terms of SoC architecture, LNL is very different from MTL. The Israeli team had time to learn from the Oregon team's struggles.

 

[coercitiv]

Removing half the E-cores to create a leadership product for ultrabooks. This will require a bit of digesting for the folks who believe that E cores are Intel's paradigm shift moment in the consumer space.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Removing half the E-cores to create a leadership product for ultrabooks. This will require a bit of digesting for the folks who believe that E cores are Intel's paradigm shift moment in the consumer space.

Maybe, they just realised, that 2 cores was/will be a bit too less?
Maybe, the distribution for common workloads scaling with 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., n threads just shifted a bit in recent years (80% Pareto might have been at 1.9 threads before and might sit at 3.1 now for example)?

 

[IntelUser2000]

We will see how much power MTL-M would consume. Intel mentioned about 5W is only for tCPU which I thought would be enough for 2P+8E CPU. We do not know exact figures for SoC, IOE and tGPU. My guess would be around 20W for 4 tiles to function simultaneously.

It depends on the definition of what's needed. CPU and GPU is the most demanding part. If the CPU portion takes only 5W you could probably do all at 10W. And between CPU and GPU it heavily depends on what you are running.

I can tell you the PCH on my Kaby-Y doesn't use more than 1W at max and does not change significantly. It usually stays at about 0.3W. Bigger versions like the U set at 28W might use 2-3W at max at 1W normally?

If you used an ARM notebook, you willl notice the crazy standby time and how long the battery lasts and I am hoping that Intel will achieve that Lunar Lake while also being a powerhouse in its class.

The foundation of lowering system power comes with Meteorlake. The issue is that the PCH cannot power down fast enough in realistic scenarios, since even in Icelake it can reach ultra low standby power. What's the point of super low standby if it can only be reached literally after 2 mins of doing absolutely nothing, not even moving a mouse pointer?

This problem has been "known" for a decade now. I think if they did not screw up royally on the 10nm generation, we would have seen it quite a bit before 2020.

They might have a lot to perfect still, and that could be Lunar Lake.

Removing half the E-cores to create a leadership product for ultrabooks. This will require a bit of digesting for the folks who believe that E cores are Intel's paradigm shift moment in the consumer space.

Wake me up when they completely remove them. They are still experimenting with various setups. Also, you must also be dynamic with what you got. No set rule.

 

[A///]

They may not have a choice. They've already "let" AMD take control in the server and workstation space. May as well let them take control everywhere else.

Remind me to never ask you about your love life.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Remind me to never ask you about your love life.

I'll take non-sequitors for $1000, Alex (RIP).

 

[A///]

I'll take non-sequitors for $1000, Alex (RIP).

ill risk the suspension by saying intel under pat "gunslinger" gelsinger is not looking at cuckholding themselves any further as they have the last five years due to amd clawing at them in datacenter, mobile and desktop. intel is still on a downward utilization trend in dc but will be held in place for a while due to outstanding contracts intel has. Once those end it's a free for all for amd provided they can meet the demand. there's a lot of factors of what or how amd can supply them but without having access to their and tsmc's records it's all a guessing game. this is why i said a while back that if intel investors aren't full of themselves and the board is smart they won't back a no confidence vote on gelsinger and will trudge on because they know he's laser focused onr ighting the many wrongs of the company.

gunslinger doesn't care about quick profits otherwise we wouldn't be seeing intel scrambling to get their timeline in order and he's not engaged in extra marital affairs like some of his predecessors. I don't look at mtl being canceled on desktop as a con. They may not see any financial benefit in developing it out for desktop when arrowlake will offer a more compelling reason to upgrade for older gen users or amd. If AMD's zen 5 is another lukewarm salad then it's all in intel's court.

 

[Joe NYC]

ill risk the suspension by saying intel under pat "gunslinger" gelsinger is not looking at cuckholding themselves any further as they have the last five years due to amd clawing at them in datacenter, mobile and desktop. intel is still on a downward utilization trend in dc but will be held in place for a while due to outstanding contracts intel has. Once those end it's a free for all for amd provided they can meet the demand. there's a lot of factors of what or how amd can supply them but without having access to their and tsmc's records it's all a guessing game. this is why i said a while back that if intel investors aren't full of themselves and the board is smart they won't back a no confidence vote on gelsinger and will trudge on because they know he's laser focused onr ighting the many wrongs of the company.

gunslinger doesn't care about quick profits otherwise we wouldn't be seeing intel scrambling to get their timeline in order and he's not engaged in extra marital affairs like some of his predecessors. I don't look at mtl being canceled on desktop as a con. They may not see any financial benefit in developing it out for desktop when arrowlake will offer a more compelling reason to upgrade for older gen users or amd. If AMD's zen 5 is another lukewarm salad then it's all in intel's court.

I prefer Kissinger - which is what you get when you read Chinese article, mentioning Gelsinger, auto-translated to English.

Kissinger was the ultimate strategist in his era, and still is at age of nearly 100.

 

[itsmydamnation]

If AMD's zen 5 is another lukewarm salad then it's all in intel's court.

So which AMD processor is lukewarm salad? if your referring to Zen4 sales , that has nothing to do with Zen4 performance , its just market and timing. But its funny, for intel to keep up with the luke warm salad we have people running around saying just use DRR5-8000 its totally a daily driver!