Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[SiliconFly]

Well, I sure hope that's not the case but considering what AMD just cooked... It sure is possible that it improves every aspect but who knows.

Agree somewhat. But there is a difference. We didn't know how much to expect in AMD's case (I'm assuming/not sure). But in Intel's case, LNL's LNC numbers are already out and it's looking good. ARL's LNC IPC gains are kinda based on LNL's LNC IPC gains (this part is sure).

Also, regarding Zen5, there are many who now say amd is laser focused on server parts performance (ppw) where the real money is and hence they didn't focus too much on client. And Zen5 epyc probably fits the bill better than their last gen and also intel's upcoming server parts (dmr). If true, thats one tremendous win. Not to be taken lightly.

 

[DavidC1]

It's known for ages that Arrow Lake reuses Meteor Lakes SoC-Tiles, so it was clear it will also have 2 Crestmont cores.

Interesting choice there. Probably a cost saving measure, but not sure that is really a value add. Only for H-series SKUs.

Intel Core Ultra 200H "Arrow Lake-H" to feature two types of Efficient cores: Skymont and Crestmont - VideoCardz.com

Mobile Arrow Lake: Not just Lion Cove and Skymont Intel has issued patches for the upcoming Arrow Lake-H series. Intel might be quiet about its next-gen client CPU series, but preparations are underway behind the scenes before the company publicly announces it. The Arrow Lake series will launch...

videocardz.com

It's exactly what Intel advertised with Meteorlake. You can replace only the tiles you want without bothering everything else, thus you get faster cycle time.

-Except when the first one is crap, the rest inherits it.
-It'll stay crap until they change the whole thing, which defeats the whole purpose.

Arrowlake-H exists solely for higher performance, Arrowlake-U which is Meteorlake on Intel 3 is for low cost, and Lunarlake for everything else. The LPE core is there because it exists in Meteorlake, and 4% gain in one usage scenario is better than nothing since you already spent money on it.

And Zen5 epyc probably fits the bill better than their last gen and also intel's upcoming server parts (dmr). If true, thats one tremendous win. Not to be taken lightly.

And yet with core count being equal this will be the year when Intel server parts have been most competitive since 2016. They are both 500W 128 core parts.

 

[SiliconFly]

And yet with core count being equal this will be the year when Intel server parts have been most competitive since 2016. They are both 500W 128 core parts.

I’m not good with power usage numbers (not my cup of tea), but what if Zen5 Epyc parts are hyper efficient compared to equivalent rapids parts? I assuming Diamond Rapids with RWC is the one that’s set to complete against Zen5 Epyc. And we already know how horrible RWC is! I don’t think Diamond Rapids stands much of a chance against a supposedly hyper efficient Zen5 Epyc. Just speculating.

 

[Hitman928]

It's exactly what Intel advertised with Meteorlake. You can replace only the tiles you want without bothering everything else, thus you get faster cycle time.

-Except when the first one is crap, the rest inherits it.
-It'll stay crap until they change the whole thing, which defeats the whole purpose.

Arrowlake-H exists solely for higher performance, Arrowlake-U which is Meteorlake on Intel 3 is for low cost, and Lunarlake for everything else. The LPE core is there because it exists in Meteorlake, and 4% gain in one usage scenario is better than nothing since you already spent money on it.

And yet with core count being equal this will be the year when Intel server parts have been most competitive since 2016. They are both 500W 128 core parts.

I believe GR-SP only goes up to 60 cores. The 128 core part is an AP part, which traditionally was basically 2 SP dies on a single substrate and no one really wanted them due to the added costs and not much benefit from just going dual socket.

With tiles, maybe they are handling it better, but I suspect it will still not solve the prior AP problems and will be a low volume line. I haven’t actually seen it yet, though, so I’m just guessing.

 

[Henry swagger]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821716642709065883

Pl1 pl2 of the cancled 8+ 32 arrow lake.. ☺😐.. would have been a beast .. guess 8+16 is enough 🥇😀

 

[gdansk]

PL2 higher than I expected.

 

[DavidC1]

I believe GR-SP only goes up to 60 cores. The 128 core part is an AP part, which traditionally was basically 2 SP dies on a single substrate and no one really wanted them due to the added costs and not much benefit from just going dual socket.

No it's not. I've seen you here often enough. Didn't you know?

First pic from Hot Chips coverage at Anandtech:

Hot Chips 2023: Intel Details More on Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest Xeons

www.anandtech.com

-SP is a two compute die part and -AP is a three compute die part. They both have separate IO tiles too. Nothing really different.

From a leak:

Intel "Birch Stream" platform details for future Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest CPUs leak out - VideoCardz.com

Intel Next-Gen Xeon series platform detailed Slides from Intel’s internal presentation on the next-gen Xeon platform were just shared by hardware leaker YuuKi-AnS. Since the slides are dated back to 2021, one must assume that the specs are a subject to change. In fact, some rumors already point...

videocardz.com

Granite Rapids compute tile has 44 cores physically. So -SP has 88 cores in total with few disabled. -AP has 132 cores physically.

Cascadelake -AP is a BGA part meaning zero upgradability. Granite Rapids -AP is merely a bigger socket part and it's LGA. The latter is built for tiles in mind, the former was a desperate response. Granite Rapids -AP also supports 8S, while Cascadelake-AP wasn't able to because it used some of it's QPI interconnects to connect the hackjob implementation of cores together. It was essentially advertised as 4S squeezed into 2S CPUs.

The cores are supposed to be even a modified version of RWC and perform faster. The gap is going to be reduced from 70-90% today to 15-25% compared to Turin. Same TDP, same core count, small core differences.

The 350W -SP GNR should be competitive with 350W Turin too. 40% faster than Emerald Rapids.

PL2 higher than I expected.

PTL-U has 54W PL2 according to that leak. Would not be surprised at all if battery life is 20-30% lower than Lunarlake.

As for Arrowlake-S, it's still 100W less than the unlimited TDP Raptorlake. Hopefully Intel learns not to do unlimited TDP.

$32 billion lawsuit coming. This is the worst position the company has been in in decades. At least with Netburst and 10nm delay days the company was stable:

Intel hit with lawsuit over $32 billion loss, shareholders complain company hid problems

Was Intel hiding its big problems all along?

www.tomshardware.com

I assuming Diamond Rapids with RWC is the one that’s set to complete against Zen5 Epyc. And we already know how horrible RWC is! I don’t think Diamond Rapids stands much of a chance against a supposedly hyper efficient Zen5 Epyc. Just speculating.

Again what the heck are you talking about? Why make things out of thin air when real information exists?

Granite Rapids is enhanced RWC coming in less than a quarter, which means it'll come about the same time as Turin does. We don't know what Diamond Rapids is but supposedly it's Lion Cove(or even better).

 

[poke01]

PTL-U has 54W PL2 according to that peak. Would not be surprised at all if battery life is 20-30% lower than Lunarlake.

Oh my ************. Really???
Why Intel? Is Lunar really a one off product.

Lunar will still be better than PTL-U then. They always do this, not commit to thr important SKUs

 

[DavidC1]

Oh my ************. Really???
Why Intel? Is Lunar really a one off product.

Lunar will still be better than PTL-U then. They always do this, not commit to the important SKUs

This is why I'm actually worried about the company. Pat is either not willing to fix or it's too late to be fixed.

I don't know why they don't take proactive decisions for new markets rather than reacting to competition. I've been watching the company for 25 years. As soon as competition is crushed, they go right back to coasting.

-You know why Celeron exists? Because Cyrix realized that companies like Dell wanted cheaper computers.
-Pentium M? Because of Transmeta
-Core 2? Because of Athlon
-Lunarlake? Because of Apple

An ideal Intel would have progressively made slower chips available for cheaper, and offered tablet and phone optimized platforms and chips organically, meaning they'd have done it without pressure.

The "spirit" of Moore's Law says it allows you to offer smaller and more power efficient computers that are cheaper, more so than straight up faster ones.

 

[Hitman928]

No it's not. I've seen you here often enough. Didn't you know?

First pic from Hot Chips coverage at Anandtech:

Hot Chips 2023: Intel Details More on Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest Xeons

www.anandtech.com

-SP is a two compute die part and -AP is a three compute die part. They both have separate IO tiles too. Nothing really different.

From a leak:

Intel "Birch Stream" platform details for future Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest CPUs leak out - VideoCardz.com

Intel Next-Gen Xeon series platform detailed Slides from Intel’s internal presentation on the next-gen Xeon platform were just shared by hardware leaker YuuKi-AnS. Since the slides are dated back to 2021, one must assume that the specs are a subject to change. In fact, some rumors already point...

videocardz.com

Granite Rapids compute tile has 44 cores physically. So -SP has 88 cores in total with few disabled. -AP has 132 cores physically.

Cascadelake -AP is a BGA part meaning zero upgradability. Granite Rapids -AP is merely a bigger socket part and it's LGA. The latter is built for tiles in mind, the former was a desperate response. Granite Rapids -AP also supports 8S, while Cascadelake-AP wasn't able to because it used some of it's QPI interconnects to connect the hackjob implementation of cores together. It was essentially advertised as 4S squeezed into 2S CPUs.

The cores are supposed to be even a modified version of RWC and perform faster. The gap is going to be reduced from 70-90% today to 15-25% compared to Turin. Same TDP, same core count, small core differences.

The 350W -SP GNR should be competitive with 350W Turin too. 40% faster than Emerald Rapids.

PTL-U has 54W PL2 according to that leak. Would not be surprised at all if battery life is 20-30% lower than Lunarlake.

As for Arrowlake-S, it's still 100W less than the unlimited TDP Raptorlake. Hopefully Intel learns not to do unlimited TDP.

$32 billion lawsuit coming. This is the worst position the company has been in in decades. At least with Netburst and 10nm delay days the company was stable:

Intel hit with lawsuit over $32 billion loss, shareholders complain company hid problems

Was Intel hiding its big problems all along?

www.tomshardware.com

Again what the heck are you talking about? Why make things out of thin air when real information exists?

Granite Rapids is enhanced RWC coming in less than a quarter, which means it'll come about the same time as Turin does. We don't know what Diamond Rapids is but supposedly it's Lion Cove(or even better).

Thanks for the link, there’s too many products now, can’t keep up with them all. Has the 500 W for Turin been confirmed? I haven’t seen it in any of the AMD stuff.

 

[FlameTail]

Oh my ************. Really???
Why Intel? Is Lunar really a one off product.

Lunar will still be better than PTL-U then. They always do this, not commit to thr important SKUs

Ah. So that's why Dell is releasing XPS 13 with Lunar Lake in 2026, when Panther Lake will be available at the time.

 

[Thunder 57]

This is why I'm actually worried about the company. Pat is either not willing to fix or it's too late to be fixed.

I don't know why they don't take proactive decisions for new markets rather than reacting to competition. I've been watching the company for 25 years. As soon as competition is crushed, they go right back to coasting.

-You know why Celeron exists? Because Cyrix realized that companies like Dell wanted cheaper computers.
-Pentium M? Because of Transmeta
-Core 2? Because of Athlon
-Lunarlake? Because of Apple

An ideal Intel would have progressively made slower chips available for cheaper, and offered tablet and phone optimized platforms and chips organically, meaning they'd have done it without pressure.

The "spirit" of Moore's Law says it allows you to offer smaller and more power efficient computers that are cheaper, more so than straight up faster ones.

That is a take I haven't heard before but it sure sounds true. Wow, interesting insight.

 

[ondma]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821716642709065883

Pl1 pl2 of the cancled 8+ 32 arrow lake.. ☺😐.. would have been a beast .. guess 8+16 is enough 🥇😀

Yea, mobile is way, way too confusing. Just release something superior for the desktop. The Intel supporters on this forum are thinking ARL will look good against Zen 5, since prelim results dont seem too exciting for Zen 5. I think the results for Zen 5 might be a lot better than the initial reviews suggest though. I still think ARL will at best trade blows with Zen 5, especially when PBO is enabled.

 

[del42sa]

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-o...4-event-leaving-arrow-lake-launch-in-question

it´s much worse than I have expected ...

 

[cebri1]

$32 billion lawsuit coming. This is the worst position the company has been in in decades. At least with Netburst and 10nm delay days the company was stable:

Intel hit with lawsuit over $32 billion loss, shareholders complain company hid problems

Was Intel hiding its big problems all along?

www.tomshardware.com

The "I lost a ton of money on a stock, I'm going to pretend I didn't know the risk on investing on the stock market, please give me my money back" lawsuit. I always find these hilarious.

 

[Philste]

Oh my ************. Really???
Why Intel? Is Lunar really a one off product.

Explain to me what PL2 has to do with battery life...
Does it mean Panther Lake can POTENTIALLY use more power than Lunar Lake? Yes!
Does it mean it WILL use more power than Lunar Lake? No!

See AMDs "9700X is more efficient than 5800X3D" Slide. Can 5800X3D potentially use more power? Yes?
Does it actually use more power? No, power of 9700X un Gaming is higher

 

[SiliconFly]

Again what the heck are you talking about? Why make things out of thin air when real information exists?

Granite Rapids is enhanced RWC coming in less than a quarter, which means it'll come about the same time as Turin does. We don't know what Diamond Rapids is but supposedly it's Lion Cove(or even better).

The same heck. I might have confused the names as I'm not a big fan of the server parts. But the fact remains. Enhanced RWC is just putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a day! RWC shouldn't even exist in 2024. Zen5 Epyc is gonna run circles around RWC-based server parts both in performance and efficiency (and probably cost too?).

 

[TwistedAndy]

To be honest, the only thing I expect is much lower power consumption while performance is probably about the same.

You can always adjust PL1, PL2, TAU, and many other settings to match your preferences. Power limits are not fused into the CPU, even on laptops.

I hope that Intel and OEMs will add the Undervolting Protection setting to the BIOS for the Arrow Lake H and U series. HX has that, but it's hidden (which is fine).

Explain to me what PL2 has to do with battery life...
Does it mean Panther Lake can POTENTIALLY use more power than Lunar Lake? Yes!
Does it mean it WILL use more power than Lunar Lake? No!

Yep. PL2 does not affect battery life that much. Technically, it's possible to increase TAU and power limits, but this will affect battery life under high load.

 

[FlanK3r]

Arrow Lake: the new generation CPUs have at least 100W lower power consumption while maintaining high frequecnies. The updated process eliminates previous high voltage issues, ensuring stability.
Performance details of the new generation are confidential but expected to be impressive.

Today leaks power plan of Arrow Lake...Still a lot for 3nm jump for Core Ultra 9 ... 295W powerlimit on Intel Extreme profile (pushed for reviewers)

 

[AMDK11]

Arrow Lake: the new generation CPUs have at least 100W lower power consumption while maintaining high frequecnies. The updated process eliminates previous high voltage issues, ensuring stability.
Performance details of the new generation are confidential but expected to be impressive.

Today leaks power plan of Arrow Lake...Still a lot for 3nm jump for Core Ultra 9 ... 295W powerlimit on Intel Extreme profile (pushed for reviewers)View attachment 104901

Can the premiere take place earlier?

 

[Det0x]

*edit*
nevermind, no point to pour salt into the wounds

 

[511]

The "I lost a ton of money on a stock, I'm going to pretend I didn't know the risk on investing on the stock market, please give me my money back" lawsuit. I always find these hilarious.

Stock market is 100% investors fault lol you can't blame your bad investment on company

 

[511]

Arrow Lake: the new generation CPUs have at least 100W lower power consumption while maintaining high frequecnies. The updated process eliminates previous high voltage issues, ensuring stability.
Performance details of the new generation are confidential but expected to be impressive.

Today leaks power plan of Arrow Lake...Still a lot for 3nm jump for Core Ultra 9 ... 295W powerlimit on Intel Extreme profile (pushed for reviewers)View attachment 104901

Pl1 is still 125W but with motherboards we dont know lol Baseline PL1=PL2=177W would be good enough imo core Ultra 5 will be the winner for mid range imo 125W PL2 LMAO 159W on performance lol

 

[inquiss]

Stock market is 100% investors fault lol you can't blame your bad investment on company

Generally yes, and I'm not making comment on intel here, but if you have been lied to in your investments that's basis for a case. Investors of course take into account what the company says and provides to the market and shareholders and if they have lied then that's definitely a problem

 

[MoistOintment]

Generally yes, and I'm not making comment on intel here, but if you have been lied to in your investments that's basis for a case. Investors of course take into account what the company says and provides to the market and shareholders and if they have lied then that's definitely a problem

I really don't see the investors having a case here. "Feeling misled" certainly isn't evidence. They need to point to specific lies.

They can talk about the "state of fabs" all they want - but Intel didn't ever have to report on the independent finances of fabs when they were a vertically integrated and proprietary to Intel's own internal designs. There were no "independent finances" of fabs prior to them being split off just like there's no independent profitability report of the HR department or IT department reported to investors.