Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

[escrow4]

HEDT is 1-2 generations behind the mainstream desktop cores. Its 1 generation now with broadwell, and will be 2 generations behind when skylake drops.

I dont care about games, I care about the performance in Adobe Premiere Pro/After Effects/Encoding/decoding/editing video etc etc. Cinebench is a good indicator of MT performance, which is what I need.

Then buy a 5960X with a 64GB slab of memory and forget about Skylake. Just because its "behind" 2 generations doesn't automatically make it useless.

 

[stockwiz]

Most of the game benchmarks had the 5820K ahead anyways.... assuming that 5820K was not overclocked and running at the lower clockspeed it doesn't make skylake look at impressive. I want to see more leaked benchmarks before I believe this 20-25% increase... I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 10% when all is said and done.

My timeframe to possibly build a new PC is in the next 2-3 months.. should have more leaks by then and I can decide 6600K vs 5820K.

 

[biostud]

HEDT is 1-2 generations behind the mainstream desktop cores. Its 1 generation now with broadwell, and will be 2 generations behind when skylake drops.

I dont care about games, I care about the performance in Adobe Premiere Pro/After Effects/Encoding/decoding/editing video etc etc. Cinebench is a good indicator of MT performance, which is what I need.

Where can you buy a desktop version of Broadwell?

Since the launch of X99 and Haswell-E, HEDT and mainstream desktop CPU's are the same generation, and will continue to be that until launch of Skylake.

 

[tenks]

Where can you buy a desktop version of Broadwell?

Since the launch of X99 and Haswell-E, HEDT and mainstream desktop CPU's are the same generation, and will continue to be that until launch of Skylake.

I think you're missing the point and splitting hairs just to be right.. Whether you can buy a broadwell cpu or not is irrelevant. Broadwell has been developed, the uARCH exists/ has been finalized/baked/done and is out in some form..In thin and light devices and so on..Which means HEDT it's a core generation behind.

And Broadwell will soon be out in the form of the unlocked Iris Pro C skus which are desktop skus, so no you're wrong, HEDT and Desktop won't be the same generation until skylake. And like I said, once skylake is out, HEDT will be 2 generations behind and there is no debating that.

I want to see more leaked benchmarks before I believe this 20-25% increase... I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 10% when all is said and done.

My timeframe to possibly build a new PC is in the next 2-3 months.. should have more leaks by then and I can decide 6600K vs 5820K.

Yea I guess I'm in the same boat as you. I was going to wait for Computex and then go from there.

Then buy a 5960X with a 64GB slab of memory and forget about Skylake. Just because its "behind" 2 generations doesn't automatically make it useless.

I totally get what you're saying but it's all about the platform at this point. The I/O bandwidth increase is huge moving to the new 100 series chipset and they're adding raid support to m.2 and sata-express. That's a big deal for me when most of my tasks are bottlenecked at the storage area and I plan to invest into m.2 drives in my new build.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I totally get what you're saying but it's all about the platform at this point. The I/O bandwidth increase is huge moving to the new 100 series chipset and they're adding raid support to m.2 and sata-express. That's a big deal for me when most of my tasks are bottlenecked at the storage area and I plan to invest into m.2 drives in my new build.

If I/O is that important, you'd be better of with an X99 setup, and running the SSDs on the PCIe lanes from the CPU. If you don't mind using the IGP, you could do the same on regular Skylake.

 

[Sweepr]

True, however looking at it further (ala I was on mobile now on desktop), I wanted to dig up this excellent article. And This is what I was referring to when I said weak sauce.

According to AnandTech and other tech websites Haswell Core i7 4770K is ~20% faster than Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600K on average, same for Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600K vs Nehalem Core i7 965.
If Skylake Core i7 6700K manages a 30% boost compared to Haswell Core i7 4770K via IPC + increased clock then it's going to be an outstanding ''Tock'', better than its predecessors.

 

[jpiniero]

They are not going to launch two replacement models within 9 months of each other. OEMs complained before about 12 month launch being too short, let alone 9. It's simply not happening. ~12 months is the optimum time for squeezing out every dollar and not making the product stagnant.

I don't think any major OEMs bought the desktop Iris Pro anyway except for Apple. Apple would be fine with that for sure.

 

[jpiniero]

According to AnandTech and other tech websites Haswell Core i7 4770K is ~20% faster than Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600K on average, same for Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600K vs Nehalem Core i7 965.
If Skylake Core i7 6700K manages a 30% boost compared to Haswell Core i7 4770K via IPC + increased clock then it's going to be an outstanding ''Tock'', better than its predecessors.

Of course if it can't overclock much, most of the advantage would be lost. Plus the preminum for DDR4.

 

[inf64]

According to this:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/897-25/gains-moyennes-cpu.html

Haswell is around 14% faster than SB at the same clock ( divide 4770K's application score by ~1.056x average difference in clock speed Vs 2600K).

Now, Skylake appears to be at least 15% faster (on average) than Haswell. It will also have a solid clock advantage over 4770K (6700K will have ~10% higher clock on average). All combined , stock 6700K Skylake could end up being ~50% faster than stock 2600K which is a huge increase in performance for those that don't OC either SB or Skylake.

Now SB users do OC usually so on average SB can easily hit 4.8GHz if I'm not mistaken. In this case, switching over to stock Skylake would net around 13% performance jump, so not really worth it if Skylake is not also OCed. If it can OC to around 4.8Ghz just like SB could, then the difference jumps to ~33% and is again a viable upgrade worth the money IMO. So Sweepr is correct.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Now SB users do OC usually so on average SB can easily hit 4.8GHz if I'm not mistaken. In this case, switching over to stock Skylake would net around 13% performance jump, so not really worth it if Skylake is not also OCed. If it can OC to around 4.8Ghz just like SB could, then the difference jumps to ~33% and is again a viable upgrade worth the money IMO. So Sweepr is correct.

I had a 2600K back in the day, and I couldn't get 4.8GHz even with fairly decent air cooling; 4.5GHz is where mine topped out Prime95 stable.

 

[Sweepr]

I had a 2600K back in the day, and I couldn't get 4.8GHz even with fairly decent air cooling; 4.5GHz is where mine topped out Prime95 stable.

I had 2 Core i7 2600K builds, both topped out at 4.5-4.6GHz.
Also we don't know anything about Skylake's OC potential yet, there's still a chance that it could outpace Haswell's overclocking headroom.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I had 2 Core i7 2600K builds, both topped out at 4.5-4.6GHz.
Also we don't know anything about Skylake's OC potential yet, there's still a chance that it could outpace Haswell's overclocking headroom.

I hope so.

 

[Arachnotronic]

HEDT is 1-2 generations behind the mainstream desktop cores. Its 1 generation now with broadwell, and will be 2 generations behind when skylake drops.

Technically, Broadwell for mainstream DT isn't even here yet. Based on what you can buy in stores, HEDT and Mainstream use the same core

 

[AtenRa]

According to this:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/897-25/gains-moyennes-cpu.html

Haswell is around 14% faster than SB at the same clock ( divide 4770K's application score by ~1.056x average difference in clock speed Vs 2600K).

Now, Skylake appears to be at least 15% faster (on average) than Haswell. It will also have a solid clock advantage over 4770K (6700K will have ~10% higher clock on average). All combined , stock 6700K Skylake could end up being ~50% faster than stock 2600K which is a huge increase in performance for those that don't OC either SB or Skylake.

Now SB users do OC usually so on average SB can easily hit 4.8GHz if I'm not mistaken. In this case, switching over to stock Skylake would net around 13% performance jump, so not really worth it if Skylake is not also OCed. If it can OC to around 4.8Ghz just like SB could, then the difference jumps to ~33% and is again a viable upgrade worth the money IMO. So Sweepr is correct.

50% faster than stock 2600K in Cinebench 11.5 MT, not on average. Big difference because HyperThreading from Haswell onwards scales higher than SB and Ivy in MT loads.
So im expecting lower than 50% in ST/MT loads on average from SB to Skylake even with higher clocks.

 

[Sweepr]

Big difference because HyperThreading from Haswell onwards scales higher than SB and Ivy in MT loads.

Not in CB11.5.

Core i7 4770K is 15.6% faster @ MT and 15.58% faster @ ST (vs Core i7 2700K). Minor difference in 7-zip MT/ST too.

 

[AtenRa]

Not in CB11.5.

Core i7 4770K is 15.6% faster @ MT and 15.58% faster @ ST (vs Core i7 2700K). Minor difference in 7-zip MT/ST too.

From AT Bench

Cinebench 11.5 MT

Core i7 2600K = 6,86
Core i7 3770K = 7,61 ----> 10,93%
Core i7 4770K = 8,51 ----> 11,82%
Core i7 4790K = 9,66 ----> 13,51%

2600K to 4790K = 40,81%

 

[frozentundra123456]

I see Skylake in a sort of strange place. All is this is assuming it overclocks similar to Haswell, which I think is the best case.

It is a nice improvement over Haswell, but not really a game changer like some rumors were predicting. So assuming about a 15% gain from haswell holds up, and since you have to buy a new motherboard and DDR4 (not sure about the DDR3 thing, but I think most users will just go DDR4) the upgrade becomes uncomfortably close in cost to just upgrading to a 5820k. So unless one absolutely needs the best single threaded performance, going Haswell E seems like at least an equally viable choice. It will be interesting to see gaming benchmarks on a wide variety of games with Haswell E vs Skylake, especially when new gpus finally come out. DX12 coming will also shift the balance to more cores. Now I dont buy necessarily that more slower cores is going to catch up to a quad i7, but I do think more "almost as fast cores" could be a clear advantage (i.e. haswell x99 vs skylake quad).

 

[Sweepr]

I'd rather trust the review where I know they are testing both chips with very similar system specs and software. Also other Anand Bench results under CB 10 MT/ST and 3D Particle Movement MT/ST show a very similar boost for both MT and ST. There might be some difference in certain apps but it's usually tiny or non-existent.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I see Skylake in a sort of strange place. All is this is assuming it overclocks similar to Haswell, which I think is the best case.

It is a nice improvement over Haswell, but not really a game changer like some rumors were predicting. So assuming about a 15% gain from haswell holds up, and since you have to buy a new motherboard and DDR4 (not sure about the DDR3 thing, but I think most users will just go DDR4) the upgrade becomes uncomfortably close in cost to just upgrading to a 5820k. So unless one absolutely needs the best single threaded performance, going Haswell E seems like at least an equally viable choice. It will be interesting to see gaming benchmarks on a wide variety of games with Haswell E vs Skylake, especially when new gpus finally come out. DX12 coming will also shift the balance to more cores. Now I dont buy necessarily that more slower cores is going to catch up to a quad i7, but I do think more "almost as fast cores" could be a clear advantage (i.e. haswell x99 vs skylake quad).

Over the long term, the mainstream desktop platform will become less attractive to enthusiasts. The "mainstream" chips are derived from high-performance notebook chips, so you're not going to see them go beyond 4 cores there for a long, long time. The iGPU will only become more important there.

The HEDT, which is based on the Xeon chips, will likely continue to see core counts scale as Intel moves down process nodes. I believe with Skylake-E we will see HEDT chips offer in excess of 8 cores at the high end.

Over time, for high end PCs, the value proposition of going with the mainstream platform will vanish, IMO.

 

[jpiniero]

I see Skylake in a sort of strange place.

I now think the focus on this Skylake desktop release is on the 35 W parts. It does make sense; it'll help out the quad core mobile while reining in the size of the typical OEM desktop. I would prefer the PCH to be ondie, but I suppose you'll have to wait until After Cannonlake for that.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Over the long term, the mainstream desktop platform will become less attractive to enthusiasts. The "mainstream" chips are derived from high-performance notebook chips, so you're not going to see them go beyond 4 cores there for a long, long time. The iGPU will only become more important there.

The HEDT, which is based on the Xeon chips, will likely continue to see core counts scale as Intel moves down process nodes. I believe with Skylake-E we will see HEDT chips offer in excess of 8 cores at the high end.

Over time, for high end PCs, the value proposition of going with the mainstream platform will vanish, IMO.

I think a lot of this depends on gaming performance.

At the moment, what makes more sense between an 8 core at 3.00Ghz vs a 4 core at 4.00Ghz, before we look at overclocking?

Plus of course there is the price difference between the 8 core & 4 core.

How many people are going to want beyond 8 cores, anytime soon, especially with the clockspeed and price penalties it will bring?

 

[tenks]

Technically, Broadwell for mainstream DT isn't even here yet. Based on what you can buy in stores, HEDT and Mainstream use the same core

Yea nope, as I just explained this is not the case. HEDT and Mainstream are not using the same core. Thanks though.

 

[NTMBK]

Yea nope, as I just explained this is not the case. HEDT and Mainstream are not using the same core. Thanks though.

If "mainstream" means "laptop", sure. If you are talking about desktop, no.

 

[Sweepr]

I now think the focus on this Skylake desktop release is on the 35 W parts. It does make sense; it'll help out the quad core mobile while reining in the size of the typical OEM desktop. I would prefer the PCH to be ondie, but I suppose you'll have to wait until After Cannonlake for that.

Indeed, looks like their focus on low TDP parts payed off.
From 2.0GHz to 2.8GHz base + IPC improvement + Gen 9 GT2 iGPU should result in a massive performance bump. Depending on sustained load Turbo the difference to 65-95W parts isn't huge anymore.
One of those T chips coupled with a mid-range Maxwell GPU would make a great low-power gaming system.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well, they are based on the same architectural generation, which might be what he meant. But you are correct, as soon as skylake comes out they will be 2 generations apart again.

I think it will be interesting whether they come out with Broadwell K, or just go straight to Skylake K.