Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

[Fjodor2001]

Again, thats not what the cooler cost. Learn to read the articles you link to. Unless you simply dont know what Akiba PC is. Akiba PC is a retail shop. And you dont have to use that cooler for that matter.

Plus Newegg prices isnt what people pay at other places.

It's the official price, and the price in most stores in Europe is €30-40 which matches that.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's the official price, and the price in most stores in Europe is €30-40 which matches that.

Show me its the official price. What you linked was Kitguru who got the retail price from Akiba PC. And all they listed was their own price.

Since you dont know. This is Akiba PC:

 

[Phynaz]

Summing up the price for:

-DDR4 vs DDR3
-Skylake vs Haswell price increase
-CPU cooler not included vs included on Haswell
-Dollar appreciation

Seems like we're looking at around $100 price increase compared to Haswell? Even more for those affected by the dollar appreciation.

It it really worth that for what, 8% performance increase compared to Haswell 4790K?

Desktop Skylake sure seems hard to justify.

The best is expensive.

 

[cmdrdredd]

+ $41.5 for CPU cooler = $92.5, i.e. ~$100.

It was one shop in Akihabara Japan and they converted the pricing from Yen to the dollar. Sometimes products in Japan cost more or less than they do in the US and from other retailers. The 6600k costs $10 more in Japan than it does in the US but the Playstation 4 console is $70 cheaper.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Not to mention Japan got 8% VAT too that will soon increase to 10%.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I don't know how VAT is calculated I just went by pricing at amazon.com vs amazon.co.jp

 

[myocardia]

Another one of your lies. There's both stock and overclocked results for Core i5 6600K. On top of that, there's a clock per clock comparison at their Core i7 6700K review.
Eurogamer reviewed Devil's Canyon with a Corsair 1866/C9 kit and they most likely used the same kit here,

So, you're admitting to not having the slightest idea what DDR3 they used, hence it may very well be some DDR3 1,333 CL 11. Gotcha.

So now you admit there could be different results?

Since you quite obviously don't already know what it means: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/few?s=t

LOL, is this coming from the same person trying hard to convince us that reviews with minor RAM differences (when you normalize clocks/latency) are invalid and made by shills just because Skylake did pretty well in some of them?

lmfao, do you just string words together, and hope they end up as sentences, or does what passes for your brain actually think that a bandwidth difference of 62.2%/1,133 million hertz is small, and/or minor?

According to them, PCLab still favours Haswell.

Did you really just say that PCLab favors Haswell, then prove it by posting benchmarks with Haswell competing against Haswell? Okay, that's all for me. I'm not going to be the guy who keeps picking on the slow kid. Thanks for the laughs though, honestly.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Show me its the official price. What you linked was Kitguru who got the retail price from Akiba PC. And all they listed was their own price.

Since you dont know. This is Akiba PC:

It costs €30-40 in most shops in Europe. That corresponds to $40 or more.

 

[Fjodor2001]

The best is expensive.

Yup, apparently. Many should doubt if it's worth the minor improvement though.

 

[Sweepr]

So, you're admitting to not having the slightest idea what DDR3 they used, hence it may very well be some DDR3 1,333 CL 11. Gotcha.

So you are admiting you made a serious accusation, called Digital Foundry (Eurogamer) a bunch of shills payed by Intel without a single piece evidence about what kind of memory they used. Meanwhile I just proved Eurogamer did in fact use a much faster Corsair DDR3 kit in their previous Haswell tests, likely the same they used this time (very different from your ridiculous DDR3-1333 claim). Gotcha.

Did you really just say that PCLab favors Haswell, then prove it by posting benchmarks with Haswell competing against Haswell?

Just a few more samples where latency matters too, if mikk's test results weren't enough already to make your claims look like funny jokes.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Its not 100$. Stop making up FUD.

You can buy Skylake for the same price as Haswell with memory and board.

I don't think that's FUD.

Adjusting Yuriman's post

DDR3-1600 8GB(2x4GB) vs DDR3-2666, $50 vs $68

4690K vs 6600K: $240 vs $250

Z170 motherboard vs Z97 (same brand): $115 vs $85


Total price difference: $58

With 16GB though that goes to $100.


I completely agree with Sweeper needing DDR4-2666 and above.

Back in DDR2 days: DDR2-533 sucked over DDR-400, you needed DDR2-667
Back in DDR3 days: DDR3-1066 sucked over DDR2-800, you needed DDR3-1333

So logically to beat DDR3-1600 you need DDR4-2666.

 

[Absolute0]

Anandtech had a HUGE motherboard roundup for Z170:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9485/...-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi-ecs-evga-supermicro

The 55+ mobos from a variety of vendors each with their own tier is a lot for me to process. What motherboards have people been looking at to hit a sweetspot for the price:functionality ratio? Assuming overclocking is hardly an argument here because it's just so simple these days.

for the record i was looking here
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130867
seems to check all the boxes

 

[IntelUser2000]

Review about DDR vs DDR2: http://www.anandtech.com/show/1358/16

You can see from the same 915 chipset, DDR is equal or better than DDR2. And DDR2 is at 533MHz, while DDR is at 400MHz.

Translating that to DDR3 vs DDR4.

No advantage of DDR3-1600 vs DDR4-2133. You need DDR4-2666 to have any advantage over DDR3-1600. So every DDR "generation" you need effectively 40% speed advantage to have a real world application advantage.

It shows on even bandwidth sensitive iGPU test with Anandtech, DDR4 2133 is not faster than DDR3 1866.

To be on par with each other you need:

DDR3-1600 to DDR4-2133
DDR3-1866 to DDR4-2490
DDR3-2100 to DDR4-2800
DDR3-2400 to DDR4-3200

DDR2 vs DDR3: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2232/7

Again, its the same. It needed the improved chipset just to overcome the deficiency of the "new" tech. 1.33 of the new technology = 1.0 of old. You can see from the comparisons of the two chipsets. The P35 controller is much better on DDR2 mode than previous generation, which makes up for the deficiency when its on DDR3.

 

[tential]

The difference would only be a few degrees which is probably not enough for me to say one sucks and the other is great. That's really the problem. I suppose for air cooling it depends on how much space you are willing to sacrifice for that extra bit of performance as the fin towers get huge as the performance increases.

I bought the NH-D14 as it was the top end air cooler at the time and the AIO water solutions didn't perform much better if any and were fairly new so there were some problems. Now things are so close with all the top end products. There are only a few standouts anymore and the NH-C14S seems to perform about on par with the NH-D14 that I have which is really good. Some water coolers are better than the D15 but as you can see in the chart in the TweakTown article you linked to the difference between their top cooling solution and the NH-C14S was about 6.83degrees which isn't a huge difference when both of them keep the temps under 75c in an overclocked situation on a 4770k. Remember though that this product pushes the hot air up into the case and you need to have adequate flow to get it out to keep the rest of the system temps in check. Something like a Thermalright tower or a Noctua D14 or D15 can be oriented to blow the air toward the back of the case for an exhaust fan to pull out.

I'm going to use my D14 for as long as I can. There have only been minor advances in air cooling IMO. The benefit of Noctua products is they will give you a mounting bracket for a new motherboard socket for free if you prove you own the cooler and the motherboard with the updated socket.

I see, thanks for that tidbit about the mounting bracket. It looks like the DH15 is what I need then if I want to use my cooler for a long time to come. And I will want to continue to use my cooler on Skylake-E.
Meh, I just need to see how long it'll take me to switch the cooler I'm being lazy lol. Still scared of just how large the DH15 is it feels weird hanging something so large on a mobo.

 

[LTC8K6]

But the power use drops as you go from DDR > DDR2 > DDR3 > DDR4.

 

[IntelUser2000]

But the power use drops as you go from DDR > DDR2 > DDR3 > DDR4.

It would be pretty minimal if zero, because lower voltages are compensated by higher frequencies.

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/DDR3vsDDR4.png

So basically according to the graph, DDR3L-1600 = DDR4-2666 in power use.

That means even lower voltage devices like LPDDR3 in U chips means there's no reason for using DDR4 modules.


You can see in most cases perf/watt advances of new memory technologies like DDR4 are minimal. The theoretical 67% advantage of DDR4-2666 is reduced to 25% at the same power(since 1x old = 1.33x new).

 

[DrMrLordX]

Again, its the same. It needed the improved chipset just to overcome the deficiency of the "new" tech. 1.33 of the new technology = 1.0 of old. You can see from the comparisons of the two chipsets. The P35 controller is much better on DDR2 mode than previous generation, which makes up for the deficiency when its on DDR3.

The last time we saw a JEDEC memory spec debut at faster clockspeeds AND lower latency than its predecessor was when we moved from SDR to DDR DRAM. That move, along with the introduction of consumer-level dual-channel boards, significantly improved the underlying memory performance of PCs. Ever since then, JEDEC has been trying to lower overall memory voltage of their specs. Had desktop/server applications been the sole focus of JEDEC over the years, we might still be running die-shrunk DDR at insane clockspeeds and tight timings. And honestly, I'd be pretty happy with that, though the memory heatsinks that might be required would be potentially-annoying.

Regardless, there's no way you'd want even the best enthusiast DDR2 ever actually made on a modern z97 system when you could have DDR3-3000 instead if you really wanted it. The memory manufacturers have been compensating for deficiencies in new DDR designs by running up clockspeeds on each generation of new tech. There's already people demoing DDR4-4700+ on Z170, which is ridiculous, even under LN2:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...DR4-Achieves-Memory-World-Record-at-4795-8MHz

The tech is mostly brand-new. Imagine what another die shrink will do for that stuff?

 

[tential]

I see, thanks for that tidbit about the mounting bracket. It looks like the DH15 is what I need then if I want to use my cooler for a long time to come. And I will want to continue to use my cooler on Skylake-E.
Meh, I just need to see how long it'll take me to switch the cooler I'm being lazy lol. Still scared of just how large the DH15 is it feels weird hanging something so large on a mobo.

Ok,
Noctua DH-15
(side vent + top exhaust) Phantek HP 2 140 Fans x 2 (PWM)
(intake) DS Aerocool 140 (Connected to my Fan Controller in D4 Case).

I got over how big the DH-15 was when I heard how quiet it is. Guess it's worth it considering I'm still using a stock cooler and it's killing me now that my PC is right next to me.

 

[nvgpu]

https://software.intel.com/sites/de...ure-of-Intel-Processor-Graphics-Gen9-v1d0.pdf

 

[witeken]

Cool, where did you get it, cause I can't find the PDF in the IDF session overview.

So the GPU portion is just as big as the CPU. In any case that puts to rest any outrageous estimates that the GPU is more than 50% of the die. Given it is 122mm squared, anyone cares to calculate how big the IGP area is?


Edit: 44mm squared or 36% of the die.

Other interesting bits from the white paper.

"per-CPU core clock domain"

5.1 NEW CHANGES FOR INTEL PROCESSOR GRAPHICS GEN9

Intel processor graphics gen9 includes many refinements throughout the micro architecture and supporting software, over Intel processor graphics gen8. Generally, these changes are across the domains of memory hierarchy, compute capability, and product configuration. They are briefly summarized here, with more detail integrated throughput the paper.

Gen9 Memory Hierarchy Refinements:
 Coherent SVM write performance is significantly improved via new LLC cache management policies.
 The available L3 cache capacity has been increased to 768 Kbytes per slice (512 Kbytes for application data).
 The sizes of both L3 and LLC request queues have been increased. This improves latency hiding to achieve better effective bandwidth against the architecture peak theoretical.
 In Gen9 EDRAM now acts as a memory-side cache between LLC and DRAM. Also, the EDRAM memory controller has moved into the system agent, adjacent to the display controller, to support power efficient and low latency display refresh.
 Texture samplers now natively support an NV12 YUV format for improved surface sharing between compute APIs and media fixed function units.

Gen9 Compute Capability Refinements:
 Preemption of compute applications is now supported at a thread level, meaning that compute threads can be preempted (and later resumed) midway through their execution.
 Round robin scheduling of threads within an execution unit.
 Gen9 adds new native support for the 32-bit float atomics operations of min, max, and compare/exchange. Also the performance of all 32-bit atomics is improved for kernel scenarios that issued multiple atomics back to back.
 16-bit floating point capability is improved with native support for denormals and gradual underflow.

Gen9 Product Configuration Flexibility:
 Gen9 has been designed to enable products with 1, 2 or 3 slices.
 Gen9 adds new power gating and clock domains for more efficient dynamic power management. This can particularly improve low power media playback modes.

 

[Pandamonia]

The reason im upgrading is i have a sucky 4770k a wifi bug and audio problem with the Z87 Pro. Unstable in BF4 even at 4.3ghz.

I also dont want to wait 2 years until the next CPU revision.

If i can get a 4.8ghz chip then ill be happy. Whilst Single thread performance rains supreme in gaming then Extreme is not worth the money..

I also might order 8GB of ram for £60 since i never use even 7GB and DDR4 prices are set to crash.(This and the fact there is NO DAMN STOCK ANYWHERE)

 

[ShintaiDK]

It costs €30-40 in most shops in Europe. That corresponds to $40 or more.

Most shops? Not many selling it yet.

Your next task on your road to enlightenment is to figure out the exchange rate and VAT of countries.

Not that you have shown the MSRP price anywhere yet. Despite your claims of doing so.

Its currently sold at ~26$ in Scandinavia.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I don't think that's FUD.

Adjusting Yuriman's post

DDR3-1600 8GB(2x4GB) vs DDR3-2666, $50 vs $68

4690K vs 6600K: $240 vs $250

Z170 motherboard vs Z97 (same brand): $115 vs $85


Total price difference: $58

With 16GB though that goes to $100.


I completely agree with Sweeper needing DDR4-2666 and above.

Back in DDR2 days: DDR2-533 sucked over DDR-400, you needed DDR2-667
Back in DDR3 days: DDR3-1066 sucked over DDR2-800, you needed DDR3-1333

So logically to beat DDR3-1600 you need DDR4-2666.

You do know there are other places than Newegg? Also who would use DDR3 1600 CL9 with a 4690K/4790K? But again thats a moot point since you can use DDR3 with Skylake to begin with.

 

[phillyman36]

Ok at the suggestion of forum members im sending back the Corsair ddr4 2133 sticks. Ordered these instead ddr4 3200
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/vengea...00mhz-c16-memory-kit-black-cmk16gx4m2b3200c16

Discount code BTS101 gave me 10% off and free shipping option(good until 8/19)
Only $25 more than what I paid for the 2133
Better?

 

[Pandamonia]

Ok at the suggestion of forum members im sending back the Corsair ddr4 2133 sticks. Ordered these instead ddr4 3200
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/vengea...00mhz-c16-memory-kit-black-cmk16gx4m2b3200c16

Discount code BTS101 gave me 10% off and free shipping option(good until 8/19)
Only $25 more than what I paid for the 2133
Better?

im going for 3000mhz C15 which seems to be the sweet spot atm.