Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

[frozentundra123456]

How well do you guys think mobile GT4e will do in comparison to a given AMD/Nvidia video card?

Against which video card? There is a wide range to compare with. Right now I consider minimum for decent gaming at 1080p something like GT860m, or gddr5 850m. I would think iris pro mobile is maybe equivalent to 830 or 840m? So if it were coming out now, GT4e might be close. Problem is, by the time it comes out, the bar may have been raised by more demanding games and more powerful (14nm?) mobile dgpus. Of course I dont see a mobile igpu ever competing against a higher end mobile dgpu. Maybe AMD with HBM, but that will be 2017 at the earliest. Again though, the problem with GT4e is probably that it will be limited to some super expensive MacBook or windows ultrabook competitor.

 

[MisterLilBig]

Considering the performance of the Haswell GT3e on the Brix Pro, and how slow Intel is to add more EU's, 1080p60FPS gaming won't be happening with SKL GT4e. And that's for the games that already run at around 24FPS at 1080p on the Brix Pro, not counting the ones that run below 10FPS...which would need a massive multiplication of performance that Intel has shown no desire to provide.


Brix Pro Extreme Score 1080p Bioshock Infinite - 10.94 Avg FPS
Brix Pro Extreme Score 1080p Company of Heroes 2 - 8.54 Avg FPS
Brix Pro Extreme Score 1080p Dirt Showdown - 24.9 Avg FPS
Brix Pro Extreme Score 1080p Sleeping Dogs - 7.1 Avg FPS
Brix Pro Extreme Score 1080p Tomb Raider - 5.6 Avg FPS

Imagining linear scaling for Haswell GT3e:

Bioshock Infinite would need a 220EU iGPU to get 60 Avg FPS
Company of Heroes 2 would need a 284EU iGPU to get 60 Avg FPS
Dirt Showdown would need a 97EU iGPU to get 60 Avg FPS
Sleeping Dogs would need a 340EU iGPU to get 60 Avg FPS
Tomb Raider would need a 432EU iGPU to get 60 Avg FPS


So personally, I hope that SKL GT4e 50% improvement over Broadwell GT3e
is completely false. I hope.

 

[frozentundra123456]

You are being quite unrealistic here. What I would consider acceptable mid range gaming on an igp is 1080p, medium to high at mid 30s or higher FPS. And this is in a laptop. I really dont give a rat's butt about the igp in a desktop. Kaveri is close to this in a desktop, but again, why would you settle for marginal performance when it is just so easy to add a discrete card. And Kaveri in laptops seems non-existant except for the 19 watt model which I am sure will not be adequate.

BTW, I pretty much ignore Anand's gpu benchmarks. They have it split up into some basically worthless arbitrary groupings like 1280x1024, 1680x1050, and then 1080p but I think that is with the settings pretty high. I would much rather they tested the two common low end resolutions, 768p and 1080p at different image quality instead of introducing resolutions from 5 or 10 years ago. 1080p is pretty much the standard resolution for desktop now, and a lot of people may still game on a 768p laptop screen or 720p TV, but I consider 1680x1050 and especially 1280x1024 obsolete resolutions.

Edit: In mobile, which I believe was the context in which we were discussing GT4e, not even a high end mobile dgpu can reach those lofty targets you have set. For instance, according to notebookcheck, GTX880m 1080p high gets the following results: GTA V- 63, DA:I-44, Far Cry 4-51, AC Unity-32, Ryse-40, even Risen 3 only mid 40s. So a top end single mobile dgpu cannot reach the targets you have set. Pretty absurd to expect it from an igpu.

 

[MisterLilBig]

You are being quite unrealistic here. What I would consider acceptable mid range gaming on an igp is 1080p, medium to high at mid 30s or higher FPS. And this is in a laptop. I really dont give a rat's butt about the igp in a desktop. Kaveri is close to this in a desktop, but again, why would you settle for marginal performance when it is just so easy to add a discrete card. And Kaveri in laptops seems non-existant except for the 19 watt model which I am sure will not be adequate.

You mention in laptops. Like, the slide. I am just pointing out how far away Intel is, at its best case scenario(65wTDP) from getting to 1080p60FPS. Meaning, you would have to increase my results by quite a bit, for a laptop form factor. Intel iGPU is so far behind and they aren't doing much to improve upon it.

1080p is pretty much the standard resolution for desktop now

Agree.

In mobile, which I believe was the context in which we were discussing GT4e, not even a high end mobile dgpu can reach those lofty targets you have set. For instance, according to notebookcheck, GTX880m 1080p high gets the following results: GTA V- 63, DA:I-44, Far Cry 4-51, AC Unity-32, Ryse-40, even Risen 3 only mid 40s. So a top end single mobile dgpu cannot reach the targets you have set. Pretty absurd to expect it from an igpu.

Absurd is that you used other games. The M270MX(which is a rebrand) usually does x2~x3 more than the Brix Pro at the same settings above. iGPU performance matters to me, just look at the tablet comparisons of how awful Intel does...that's another topic tho.

 

[frozentundra123456]

You mention in laptops. Like, the slide. I am just pointing out how far away Intel is, at its best case scenario(65wTDP) from getting to 1080p60FPS. Meaning, you would have to increase my results by quite a bit, for a laptop form factor. Intel iGPU is so far behind and they aren't doing much to improve upon it.




Agree.



Absurd is that you used other games. The M270MX(which is a rebrand) usually does x2~x3 more than the Brix Pro at the same settings above. iGPU performance matters to me, just look at the tablet comparisons of how awful Intel does...that's another topic tho.

What is absurd about picking other games? Do you want a gaming computer that only plays certain games? And I am not sure what your point is about the R9 M270. Yes, it is faster than GT3e. It appears it is basically a downclocked HD7770, which I happen to have. I guarantee you it would not even come close to 60FPS in most modern games. Even my desktop HD7770 factory overclocked to 1050 mhz vs the M270 at 725mhz will not come close to 60 fps in modern games at 1080p.

Now I will be the first to admit I am disappointed in the improvements in intel's igp performance considering the continual increase in die space they are throwing at it. At the same time, trying to show how terrible it is by extrapolating to 1080p, 60 FPS is not really fair. That is a *very* high bar, and even an AMD apu with HBM would likely not be able to reach that target in a mobile power envelope.

 

[MisterLilBig]

What is absurd about picking other games?

Where is the Brix Pro scores of those? That's why. It's just to have an actual comparison.

And I am not sure what your point is about the R9 M270.

It is slower than a GTX880M. Yet, it is faster by x2~x3 than a 65w GT3e.

At the same time, trying to show how terrible it is by extrapolating to 1080p, 60 FPS is not really fair.

It's the standard and it won't reach that for many, many, many years. That is all that I am saying. Broadwell should had doubled the EU's and Skylake should had doubled the ones from Broadwell, that is including architecture improvements.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Where is the Brix Pro scores of those? That's why. It's just to have an actual comparison.



It is slower than a GTX880M. Yet, it is faster by x2~x3 than a 65w GT3e.



It's the standard and it won't reach that for many, many, many years. That is all that I am saying. Broadwell should had doubled the EU's and Skylake should had doubled the ones from Broadwell, that is including architecture improvements.

My point was not to compare the AMD card to the GTX880m, but to point out that even the most powerful single mobile *discrete* gpu will not reach the target you set of 1080p, 60FPS, at least at high settings. You can hardly expect an igpu to reach that.

Like I said though, I too am disappointed in Gen 8 gpu progress, at least based on the low power chips we have seen so far. With their process advantage, especially since AMD has stagnated at 28nm without HBM, I thought mainstream Intel igpu performance by Skylake should have matched Kaveri, and the edram models with extra EUs should significantly exceed it. Now, best case, I think is Broadwell GT3e will about match it and Skylake GT4e will probably be faster. By that time though, *maybe* AMD will be close to having Zen APUs with HBM. (which BTW, I think should have been their top priority in order to try to get back the consumer/enterprise market, instead of FX without igp which may be good for a small segment of the consumer market but will be very limited in scope unless they can make a big comeback in servers)

 

[jji7skyline]

Iris Pro matches performance of mid-range last-gen mobile graphics.

 

[Sweepr]

I think is Broadwell GT3e will about match it and Skylake GT4e will probably be faster. By that time though, *maybe* AMD will be close to having Zen APUs with HBM. (which BTW, I think should have been their top priority in order to try to get back the consumer/enterprise market, instead of FX without igp which may be good for a small segment of the consumer market but will be very limited in scope unless they can make a big comeback in servers)

Skylake GT4E is rumoured to arrive in early 2016. Zen APUs are not coming till sometime in 2017 and next year's APUs are not getting HBM.

 

[R0H1T]

Iris Pro matches performance of mid-range last-gen mobile graphics.

No it doesn't, unless you're counting some obscure GDDR3 part for mid range. Also skylake must be something like Fermi->Kepler or Kepler->Maxwell, throwing more EU's at it doesn't count, to be considered truly next gen IMO.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

Given the numbers for 5200, I expect 6200 to be okay, and GT4e to be acceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD_and_Iris_Graphics#Haswell

 

[MisterLilBig]

My point was not to compare the AMD card to the GTX880m, but to point out that even the most powerful single mobile *discrete* gpu will not reach the target you set of 1080p, 60FPS, at least at high settings. You can hardly expect an igpu to reach that.

Different games used. I would expect the iGPU would do far worse on the games you mentioned than the ones I did.

Given the numbers for 5200, I expect 6200 to be okay, and GT4e to be acceptable.

Skylake GT4e = Tomb Raider 1080p15 Avg FPS = "Acceptable"



I think it's far worse that higher resolution is growing at a faster rate and Intel isn't doing much. You know, I would feel bad buying a Surface 3.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Where are you getting that figure for Tomb Raider. There is plenty to criticize about intel's igp performance, but you seem to want to make unfair comparisons and use highly questionable estimates with every post. Haswell GT3e, according to anand's test already gets 30 plus fps at 900p, high settings.With 33% more EUs and 2 generations of even modest improvements, Tomb Raider will probably reach 30 fps at 1080p, medium for sure, probably high. Again, the 15 fps estimate you are making just seems absurd, unless you deliberately cripple performance by using something like extremely high AA.

Go ahead and post whatever you wish. I am done arguing with you.

 

[AtenRa]

Im expecting a nice increase of performance going from Broadwell GT3e to Skylake GT4e.

Broadwell seams to be just a 20-30% increase at most over Haswell GT3e but Skylake GT4e will gain mush more than that.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Im expecting a nice increase of performance going from Broadwell GT3e to Skylake GT4e.

Broadwell seams to be just a 20-30% increase at most over Haswell GT3e but Skylake GT4e will gain mush more than that.

The key for Intel will be to deliver big increases in real games, not just benchmarks.

 

[scannall]

Im expecting a nice increase of performance going from Broadwell GT3e to Skylake GT4e.

Broadwell seams to be just a 20-30% increase at most over Haswell GT3e but Skylake GT4e will gain mush more than that.

I'm not seeing any reason for wild optimism there.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I'm not seeing any reason for wild optimism there.

Haswell GT3e: 40 Gen. 7.5 EUs
Broadwell GT3e: 48 Gen. 8 EUs
Skylake GT4e: 72 Gen. 9 EUs.

Gen. 9 architecture should be a decent jump over the Gen. 8, and the increase in the # of EUs in going from BDW GT3e to SKL GT4e will be larger than what we saw in going from HSW GT3e to BDW GT3e.

 

[coercitiv]

Haswell GT3e: 40 Gen. 7.5 EUs
Broadwell GT3e: 48 Gen. 8 EUs
Skylake GT4e: 72 Gen. 9 EUs.

DDR4 should also help.

 

[LTC8K6]

Skylake GT4e = Tomb Raider 1080p15 Avg FPS = "Acceptable"

Why are you making up stuff?

We can all make up stuff, if that's how you want to debate.

Did someone bench test Gt4e?

Did someone post that 15fps average was acceptable?

 

[mikk]

Even dedicated mid to highend GPUs can't reach steady 60 fps in all newly released games with maxed out detail settings in 1080p. It is extremely unrealistic to expect this from an iGPU.

 

[AtenRa]

The key for Intel will be to deliver big increases in real games, not just benchmarks.

I will have to agree with that, average fps may be high but the actual game may experience low fps making the game play very unpleasant.
But a lot of things may change next year with the introduction of the DX-12 for every camp so we have to wait and see.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I will have to agree with that, average fps may be high but the actual game may experience low fps making the game play very unpleasant.
But a lot of things may change next year with the introduction of the DX-12 for every camp so we have to wait and see.

That suggests driver issues.

 

[MisterLilBig]

Where are you getting that figure for Tomb Raider.

It's on the anandtech second look of the Gigabyte Brix Pro review.

There is plenty to criticize about intel's igp performance, but you seem to want to make unfair comparisons and use highly questionable estimates with every post. Haswell GT3e, according to anand's test already gets 30 plus fps at 900p, high settings.With 33% more EUs and 2 generations of even modest improvements, Tomb Raider will probably reach 30 fps at 1080p, medium for sure, probably high. Again, the 15 fps estimate you are making just seems absurd, unless you deliberately cripple performance by using something like extremely high AA.

You are assuming completely. "33% more EUs" and "2 generations of modest improvements".

I clearly set a metric, 1080p resolution and 60 Avg FPS.

I also mentioned that "Imagining linear improvement", as in 80 EUs would perform x2 times 40 EUs. And I mentioned if it was the Haswell GT3e, so 7.5 Iris architecture.

Solid points to base a comparison.

Skylake GT4e at same watts(65tdp) and clocks as the 4770R GT3e needs to be a +200% improvement to play Tomb Raider at Extreme 1080p 15 Avg FPS. And a +500% improvement to hit 30 FPS.

Go ahead and post whatever you wish. I am done arguing with you.

I wasn't arguing, but ok.

Gen. 9 architecture should be a decent jump over the Gen. 8, and the increase in the # of EUs in going from BDW GT3e to SKL GT4e will be larger than what we saw in going from HSW GT3e to BDW GT3e

"should", at the pace it's going, it's quite insignificant.

Why are you making up stuff?

We can all make up stuff, if that's how you want to debate.

Did someone bench test Gt4e?

Did someone post that 15fps average was acceptable?

I'm not making stuff up. Just posted some percentages of how much Intel iGPU needs to increase so that those games could be enjoyed at a specific resolution and quality.

Someone commented that the improvement from Skylake would make it "acceptable".

GT4e has not been benched, but there is drastic optimism about it's iGPU performance. Basing off the highest performing GT3e part, Intel has to do drastic changes, multiplications of improvements, to be noticeable.

 

[LTC8K6]

The Brix Pro numbers are for GT3e, not GT4e.

How are they relevant?

Why did you make up a number for GT4e?

Skylake GT4e = Tomb Raider 1080p15 Avg FPS = "Acceptable"

 

[LTC8K6]

And why did you pick Tomb Raider, anyway?

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph8175/64586.png