Intel TSX Presentation at SuperComputing 2013

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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
Buy a plain 4770 with z88 board then run all cores at turbo speed (it's just a setting in the bios).

Thats sadly does not work with haswell anymore. Probably exactly because it would make the K version even more useless for people in doubt.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Thats sadly does not work with haswell anymore. Probably exactly because it would make the K version even more useless for people in doubt.

Not sure what you're talking about because the 4770 non K most certainly does have turbo. You just can't overclock the turbo speeds.

I'd hardly consider it useless as well because believe it or not, some people don't care about OC'ing.
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,058
410
126
I'd hardly consider it useless as well because believe it or not, some people don't care about OC'ing.

they don't care about OC anyway, why Intel needs to disable multiplier adjustments and bclk straps for the 4770/4771?

4771 should simply be the 4770K, a CPU with all the features from the 4770 + slightly higher clock and unlocked multi...

Intel simply doesn't sell the "full haswell" part, you have to choose between the features they disable...

turbo is not OC, and I'm pretty sure it's impossible to lock the 1C turbo clock under 8T load for the 4770.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
What's with the feeling of entitlement here? Personally, what i've noticed is that CPU prices have remained largely static for nearly 15 years. With that being the case, I have never - not once - complained about paying 20-30 more bucks for a K SKU. I remember when the Pentium 150 was released, the cost was nearly 600$. Back then, you didn't choose between a core or i5 or i3 - if you wanted something performed as an enthusiast part, guess what - you're paying 600-700$ for the CPU. There was no "cheaper" i5. There was no "cheaper" i3. You paid 600$ and that's that. If you wanted the best quake performance possible circa 1996, guess what. You're dropping 600-700$ on the CPU alone.

One of the best budget chips of all time, the celeron 300-a (this would now be equivalent to a core i3) was 200 bucks at release. i3's are far cheaper than that chip ever was.

The fact of the matter is that intel's pricing has barely budged for their respective segments, yet the users demand more and more as time goes on. 800mhz OC ? That isn't enough. We want a 1.5GHz overclock. And we want it for the lowest possible price. What's up with that? Give it a rest already.

Intel's pricing is not unreasonable. 20-30$ more for a K SKU is also not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is the level of entitlement that users expect these days. A 1ghz overclock isn't enough apparently. They want a 2ghz overclock from a 150$ CPU. Whatever. Users want more while paying less, that's the only unreasonable thing I've seen. The fact of the matter is, like I said, intel's pricing has largely not changed in greater than a decade - only user expectations have inflated. Their pricing for what you get is completely reasonable compared with the situation from 10-15 years ago.
 
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JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
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What's with the feeling of entitlement here? Personally, what i've noticed is that CPU prices have remained largely static for nearly 15 years. With that being the case, I have never - not once - complained about paying 20-30 more bucks for a K SKU. I remember when the Pentium 150 was released, the cost was nearly 600$. Back then, you didn't choose between a core or i5 or i3 - if you wanted something performed as an enthusiast part, guess what - you're paying 600-700$ for the CPU. There was no "cheaper" i5. There was no "cheaper" i3. You paid 600$ and that's that. If you wanted the best quake performance possible circa 1996, guess what. You're dropping 600-700$ on the CPU alone.

One of the best budget chips of all time, the celeron 300-a (this would now be equivalent to a core i3) was 200 bucks at release. i3's are far cheaper than that chip ever was.

The fact of the matter is that intel's pricing has barely budged for their respective segments, yet the users demand more and more as time goes on. 800mhz OC ? That isn't enough. We want a 1.5GHz overclock. And we want it for the lowest possible price. What's up with that? Give it a rest already.

Intel's pricing is not unreasonable. 20-30$ more for a K SKU is also not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is the level of entitlement that users expect these days. A 1ghz overclock isn't enough apparently. They want a 2ghz overclock from a 150$ CPU. Whatever. Users want more while paying less, that's the only unreasonable thing I've seen. The fact of the matter is, like I said, intel's pricing has largely not changed in greater than a decade - only user expectations have inflated. Their pricing for what you get is completely reasonable compared with the situation from 10-15 years ago.

I agree that CPU pricing is still very reasonable considering the lack of competition. Even in the highest-end, those $999 CPUs are nothing new. The AMD FX and Pentium 4 EE also sold for $1,000 many years ago.

It's the lack of progress that's making people frustrated. Many owners of Sandy Bridge systems have the money to spend on upgrading to a new platform and CPU. It's just that no CPU worth upgrading to exists.

In 2011, you could buy a Sandy Bridge and OC to 4.5 - 5 GHz. Fast forward to 2013, and you can buy a 4770K and OC to 4.2 - 4.6 GHz. The 2013 system will be anywhere from 90% to 110% of the performance of the 2011 system, depending on the particular application and overclock... and if you want those performance improvements, you have to buy a K CPU and give up several important features like TSX and VT-d. If you want those features, you're stuck with a 3.5 GHz Haswell, giving you about 75% the performance of an overclocked system from 2011. Intel is asking for $300 for something that is at best marginally faster than what they already have, and in the worst case actually slower.

This is very different from how it has been historically, with ever-increasing clock speeds and IPC resulting in twice the performance every 2 years.
 
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blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
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It's the lack of progress that's making people frustrated. Many owners of Sandy Bridge systems have the money to spend on upgrading to a new platform and CPU. It's just that no CPU worth upgrading to exists.

That's because desktop isn't selling like it did a decade ago and intel's long term proposition and longevity depends on creating efficient processors for the mobile market. That's exactly what the design of Haswell is for - ultra portable computers with 12-13 hours of battery life.

The parameters have changed because the market has changed. Desktop doesn't sell like it used to, while mobile has skyrocketed. The first 6 months of 2013 saw a 20% dip in desktop sales, with an even higher percentage of the most lucrative market (US). It isn't hard to figure this out - efficiency is the new metric. 12-13 hours of on the go battery life is the new metric. 20% IPC increases every 6 months, those days are done.

I also don't agree with you in regards to the rate of progress. One year from 1995-1996 would give you a new Pentium CPU running 16mhz faster. You want to take a stab at the IPC increase associated with 16mhz back then? Not a lot. One year these days we get a 7-10% IPC increase with a massive efficiency increase. Not every CPU historically has been a Sandy Bridge - that is the exception, not the norm. The rate of progression is about the same as it has ever been - there have been a few outliers like SB and Conroe. The fact of the matter is , 99% of users don't upgrade yearly. Most don't upgrade bi-yearly. The vast majority of DIY'ers upgrade less than that, and the rate of change isn't dramatically different than it was in years past - although again, efficiency is the NEW metric by which CPUs are measured. Mobile is king, desktop, sadly, is not.

This also doesn't change the fact that users are demanding more for less. Prices are completely reasonable now and Intel hasn't inflated their prices whatsoever in the past 20 years. What required a 700$ budget just for the CPU alone in 1996 can now be doable for 200 bucks and you can get a slight OC on top of that - that is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable are folks thinking that isn't enough - that they need a 1.5GHz overclock from a 150$ chip. IE, demanding more for less.
 
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Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
0
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I agree that CPU pricing is still very reasonable considering the lack of competition. Even in the highest-end, those $999 CPUs are nothing new. The AMD FX and Pentium 4 EE also sold for $1,000 many years ago.

It's the lack of progress that's making people frustrated. Many owners of Sandy Bridge systems have the money to spend on upgrading to a new platform and CPU. It's just that no CPU worth upgrading to exists.
When one uses performance as the only measuring stick of progress, yeah, they're going to be disappointed and deserve to be; they're not looking at the big picture.

There are far more important metrics to consider, chiefly among those cost, performance/dollar, performance/watt, IGP performance, and minimum power consumption. While cost hasn't really moved anywhere, peformance per dollar has moved up quite a lot at in mobile products. IGP performance has gone through the roof. Minimum power consumption is a fraction of what it used to be.

Enthusiasts are bound to be disappointed, because the goals of Intel and AMD don't have peak performance in mind. The needs of businesses and average consumers are of much higher concern, because they are far more lucrative groups.
In 2011, you could buy a Sandy Bridge and OC to 4.5 - 5 GHz. Fast forward to 2013, and you can buy a 4770K and OC to 4.2 - 4.6 GHz. The 2013 system will be anywhere from 90% to 110% of the performance of the 2011 system, depending on the particular application and overclock...
I feel like those numbers are off, particularly the typical Haswell overclocking range.
and if you want those performance improvements, you have to buy a K CPU and give up several important features like TSX and VT-d. If you want those features, you're stuck with a 3.5 GHz Haswell, giving you about 75% the performance of an overclocked system from 2011.
Those features are more than worth the general performance reduction, provided you actually make use of them. However, I do agree that it's crappy for them to force you to make such a choice.
Intel is asking for $300 for something that is at best marginally faster than what they already have, and in the worst case actually slower.

This is very different from how it has been historically, with ever-increasing clock speeds and IPC resulting in twice the performance every 2 years.
Traditional scaling died somewhere around a decade ago. It was bound to happen, with the way Intel and AMD were racing to best each other in performance, akin to the USA and the USSR stockpiling nuclear arms. Eventually, both sides realized that their decisions were folly, and the name of the game has changed.

Imagine performance as if it were surface deposits of gold. The easy performance tricks have all been used up, just like the most accessible gold deposits have been. There's still gold left, but it's harder to get to.

Take this image for instance. You can see that recent nodes don't provide the jumps that older ones did. Here's an even older chart:



Each node brought a ~37% increase in switching speed. We definitely don't get that anymore. The slowdown is foundry-agnostic -- you'll find that all foundries aren't getting the increase in switching speed that they used to. This is not the fault of Intel, and it's got little-to-nothing to do with the transition to a stronger focus on mobile.

The article this chart is from discusses information obtained from IEDM 2005. In that article, they talk about the death of traditional scaling. For someone to note that things aren't improving like they used to, well, they're a decade late. This has been the case for ages now, and it's only bound to get worse.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Remember, old "progress" also took the easy path of going from a few W to 130W if we exclude the worst. Now we are going down to 65W/84W and heading lower.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
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TSX seems like such a good feature. So good Intel might just regret pushing it too hard when his competition could take even more advantage out of it.

Can't wait to see what gains can be made out of currently crappy coded but multi-threaded aware, end user software. But the numbers look promising.
 

zir_blazer

Golden Member
Jun 6, 2013
1,184
459
136
What's with the feeling of entitlement here? Personally, what i've noticed is that CPU prices have remained largely static for nearly 15 years. With that being the case, I have never - not once - complained about paying 20-30 more bucks for a K SKU. I remember when the Pentium 150 was released, the cost was nearly 600$. Back then, you didn't choose between a core or i5 or i3 - if you wanted something performed as an enthusiast part, guess what - you're paying 600-700$ for the CPU. There was no "cheaper" i5. There was no "cheaper" i3. You paid 600$ and that's that. If you wanted the best quake performance possible circa 1996, guess what. You're dropping 600-700$ on the CPU alone.

[...]

Intel's pricing is not unreasonable. 20-30$ more for a K SKU is also not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is the level of entitlement that users expect these days.
The problem here is how Intel segments the market. Why if I want to overclock a Haswell, not only that I have to pay more for a K series (Plus Z Chipset), but I'm also being forced to drop VT-d and TSX? Back at that time, progression was lineal, you usually got more performance or features as you get higher in price. This tradeoff is ridiculous.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
I'm not sure why that is the case, but i'm sure there's a legitimate reason behind it. Shrug.

In the meantime, The 4771 was just released and matches the 4770k stock turbo speed and includes VT-D and TSX support. I am very curious as to the specific reason why K SKUs don't have TSX, but in the end - nothing uses TSX so it isn't a deal breaker to me. It's going to take years and years for programmers to begin using TSX.
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
I also don't agree with you in regards to the rate of progress. One year from 1995-1996 would give you a new Pentium CPU running 16mhz faster.

My upgrade history in the 90's and early 00's:

14 MHz 68020
40 MHz 68030
133 MHz Pentium
400 MHz K6-2
900 MHz Athlon
1733 MHz Athlon

Some of those were only a few years apart, just like Sandy and Haswell. Looking forward to that 9 GHz Haswell in 2015.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
My upgrade history in the 90's and early 00's:

14 MHz 68020
40 MHz 68030
133 MHz Pentium
400 MHz K6-2
900 MHz Athlon
1733 MHz Athlon

Some of those were only a few years apart, just like Sandy and Haswell. Looking forward to that 9 GHz Haswell in 2015.

Its also a prime example of low hanging fruits. I guess just from offhand, that you went from 1-2W? to 80W? in the same perdiod.

I dont think a 3000-6000W Haswell in LGA1150 socket would be practical if we had to continue that way.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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I can understand segmentation to a certain extent, but honestly, this just seems like shooting yourself in the foot. Especially if you want new instruction sets to become widely used, why would you not make them available on your fastest, overclockable chip. Just make an overclockable model with all the features available, and charge 20.00 more for it.

In addition, new instruction sets are one of the few reasons for enthusiasts to upgrade from sb or ivb to haswell. Why disable some of them on the k model, which is the one enthusiasts will be the one to buy?
 
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