Intelligent Design/Evolution War:4-20-06 Georgia Governor signs Laws putting Bible Class in all schools and Commandments

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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Talk about self-absorbed. No doubt homo sapiens sapiens is a unique and special species for Earth but how can you so clearly say we are the best? How do you determine what is best? We haven't been around that long. It's not yet clear that we are the ultimate in survival. Anyway, it's subjective, which makes your attempt to make it clear-cut that we are the best is weird.

Furthermore, near perfection? I'm with wylecoyote. How do you know what kind of "greater" lifeforms may exist in the future or somewhere else. It's the kind of homo-centricism that reminds me of people who were sure the Earth had to be the center of the universe.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: wylecoyote
Near perfection? I would tend to disagree... "perfect" is a dangerous word to use... our intellect may be vast in the scope of our earth, but completely amoebic compared to an alien intellegence. Once again, we have no way of knowing...

We're the only species that systematically kills each other for no reason, we destroy our habitat, blah blah blah... while I agree with you we're certainly far more advanced intellectually than anything else our planet has seen, I would not say we're near perfect.

And to all of you who say "evolution is a theory"... llike you Cerb...

For the last time, evolution is an observable scientific fact, going on around us as we speak. Read the posts above.

What you mean to say is, "it is a theory that our origin arose from evolution". That has merit. ALthough it certaintly has orders of magnitude more supporting evidence than creationism.
Being observable fact does not make it less or more of a theory. And I am not saying anything for creationism, save that creationism and evolution do not technically cancel each other out.

How is calling a theory a theory a problem?. It's not like I'm calling creationism a theory.
I'm calling evolution, which is an accepted theory, a theory.
Why is that such a problem?
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Sunner
People are free to believe as they want, and I'm not trying to deny anyone that right, I'm merely completely unable to understand how anyone can believe in silyness like Creationism.
And if anyone was trying to push for creationism to be taught in any other class than one about religion, yes then I would be very upset.

If you told me you believed the earth was flat, I wouldn't try to beat you up over it, or convince you of the errors of your ways, I'd just think you were extremely uneducated.
If you tried to convince my kids(and no I don't have any, this is a theoretcal example) about it, then I would get very upset.

Oh and it's funny you mention you don't want me living in your "free" country because of my opinions.
You do see the irony in that, right?

By the way, would you mind telling me why I'm an "Anti-freedom bigot" :roll:
Oh, I'm sorry. It's just the way you spoke about those who dared to wrong-think by believing in Creationism made me think of how the medieval Catholic priests likely spoke of pagan heretics during the Inquisition. Now I see that it was just your ignorance and/or immaturity speaking.
And I didn't say that I didn't want you living in my country. Kindly don't twist my words. I said I'm glad that you don't. Big difference, so no irony... you just need to brush up on your English.

If you have a belief about things that occurred thousands, millions, or billions of years ago, and think you can call your belief "fact" when in reality there is no way of knowing beyond educated guesses, then you have gone way past science and entered the realms of faith and religion. You see, we could say that "we have a good idea" about what occurred all that time ago (and I would agree completely), but when you say that you "know for fact" and begin to speak of various punishments for those who would dare to heretically believe differently, then you are no longer thinking with the discipline of rational science, and insted are thinking exactly the same way that a religious fanatic does.

Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Sunner
People are free to believe as they want, and I'm not trying to deny anyone that right, I'm merely completely unable to understand how anyone can believe in silyness like Creationism.
And if anyone was trying to push for creationism to be taught in any other class than one about religion, yes then I would be very upset.

If you told me you believed the earth was flat, I wouldn't try to beat you up over it, or convince you of the errors of your ways, I'd just think you were extremely uneducated.
If you tried to convince my kids(and no I don't have any, this is a theoretcal example) about it, then I would get very upset.

Oh and it's funny you mention you don't want me living in your "free" country because of my opinions.
You do see the irony in that, right?

By the way, would you mind telling me why I'm an "Anti-freedom bigot" :roll:
Oh, I'm sorry. It's just the way you spoke about those who dared to wrong-think by believing in Creationism made me think of how the medieval Catholic priests likely spoke of pagan heretics during the Inquisition. Now I see that it was just your ignorance and/or immaturity speaking.
And I didn't say that I didn't want you living in my country. Kindly don't twist my words. I said I'm glad that you don't. Big difference, so no irony... you just need to brush up on your English.

If you have a belief about things that occurred thousands, millions, or billions of years ago, and think you can call your belief "fact" when in reality there is no way of knowing beyond educated guesses, then you have gone way past science and entered the realms of faith and religion. You see, we could say that "we have a good idea" about what occurred all that time ago (and I would agree completely), but when you say that you "know for fact" and begin to speak of various punishments for those who would dare to heretically believe differently, then you are no longer thinking with the discipline of rational science, and insted are thinking exactly the same way that a religious fanatic does.

How exactly would you interpret "I'm glad you don't live in my country" other than not wanting me to live in your country?
And yes, from an educational point of view, I do look down upon those who believe in Creation, I don't try to hide it.

And no, I have not entered the realms of faith, I believe in science because science is about observation, study, learning, figuring things out for yourself.
Yes, I'm a believer in all of those things, if you wanna call them faith, sure, I'm into this faith.

Oh, and speaking of twisting words, please tell me, when did I say I "know for fact"?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: wylecoyote
Near perfection? I would tend to disagree... "perfect" is a dangerous word to use... our intellect may be vast in the scope of our earth, but completely amoebic compared to an alien intellegence. Once again, we have no way of knowing...

We're the only species that systematically kills each other for no reason, we destroy our habitat, blah blah blah... while I agree with you we're certainly far more advanced intellectually than anything else our planet has seen, I would not say we're near perfect.
You believe in aliens? Then you have faith. There is no proof of alien life, simply conjecture and and a dubious equation without definable variables. Once again, more religious-style beliefs declared as "science".

"We're the only species that systematically kills each other for no reason... " -- that is simply incorrect. Incorrect to the point of profound ignorance. Countless species all over the world kill their own kind. In fact, that's one of the hardest things about fish breeding. And the human practice of war is not contrary to evolution, it is crucially necessary to evolution. Do you and Infohawk even have a clue about what evolution is?

Originally posted by: Sunner
And no, I have not entered the realms of faith, I believe in science because science is about observation, study, learning, figuring things out for yourself.
Yes, I'm a believer in all of those things, if you wanna call them faith, sure, I'm into this faith.
Did you personally observe the processes yourself, and figure them to your own conclusions, in the true spirit of science, or did you simply read about and take your knowledge from books, in the true spirit of religion?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
Really? You were there and witnessed it with your own eyes? That's amazing.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
Really? You were there and witnessed it with your own eyes? That's amazing.

If you want to witness evolution with your own eyes get some fast-breeding insects and a nice chair.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Sunner
And no, I have not entered the realms of faith, I believe in science because science is about observation, study, learning, figuring things out for yourself.
Yes, I'm a believer in all of those things, if you wanna call them faith, sure, I'm into this faith.
Did you personally observe the processes yourself, and figure them to your own conclusions, in the true spirit of science, or did you simply read about and take your knowledge from books, in the true spirit of religion?

I don't have the time to study all aspects of science, if I had you'd probably be reading about me in books and magazines.
I'm a system engineer, not a biologist.
But still, my general philosophy when it comes to learning, be it the daily news, biology, physics, whatever, is to learn what I can myself, then try to draw some kind of conclusion.
But yes, I do have a certain faith in scienece, so far as to generally believe what respected magazines(for example) publishes.

Anyway, I'll wait to continue this discussion a bit, I've had a beer too many to have any kind of rational discussion right now, and I'm actually kinda looking forward to having you, you seem like the kind of person one could actually discuss with, and I don't wanna ruin that with drunken bull$hit right now
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
Really? You were there and witnessed it with your own eyes? That's amazing.

If you want to witness evolution with your own eyes get some fast-breeding insects and a nice chair.

Just give up infohawk - you can't count on people to actually read through the thread and/or understand what evolution is and what it is not. Just goes to show why evolution needs to be taught in schools since so few people understand it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
I'm actually kinda looking forward to having you, you seem like the kind of person one could actually discuss with

Be careful, you probably just haven't gotten to the part where he accuses you of not having read the bible for no reason at all. (I'm not joking either).
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
Really? You were there and witnessed it with your own eyes? That's amazing.
If you want to witness evolution with your own eyes get some fast-breeding insects and a nice chair.
Ah... but to translate small-scale occurences of today into large-scale phenomenon of millions of years ago would be a flaw in rational thinking. What is now is not necessarily what always was, to believe so would require faith in things that you could not possibly know personally for fact.
That evolution likely occurred, I don't doubt. To apply what we know about the evolution that we can witness today into the scientific studies and practices of today, that is wise. To believe without question large-scale evolution of millions of years ago, that is faith.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Sunner
I'm actually kinda looking forward to having you, you seem like the kind of person one could actually discuss with
Be careful, you probably just haven't gotten to the part where he accuses you of not having read the bible for no reason at all. (I'm not joking either).
Ah, you're just bitter. When you claim it says something other than what it actually does say, then of course I am going to question your scholarship of it.

Sunner, anytime. Have one for me.

Originally posted by: Tommunist
Just give up infohawk - you can't count on people to actually read through the thread and/or understand what evolution is and what it is not. Just goes to show why evolution needs to be taught in schools since so few people understand it.
I know what evolution is, my friend. It is a practical, rational theory based on fact and observation for explaining how relatively simple life became extremely complex life. Nothing more.

It is the individuals (most of whom taught in schools) who believe that evolution provides proof that God does not exist and that religion is entirely wrong who are in fact the ones who don't know what evolution is.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Other then creatism fan club, no one is claim to know the details of what happened. It is fact that evolution occured.
Really? You were there and witnessed it with your own eyes? That's amazing.
If you want to witness evolution with your own eyes get some fast-breeding insects and a nice chair.
Ah... but to translate small-scale occurences of today into large-scale phenomenon of millions of years ago would be a flaw in rational thinking. What is now is not necessarily what always was, to believe so would require faith in things that you could not possibly know personally for fact.
That evolution likely occurred, I don't doubt. To apply what we know about the evolution that we can witness today into the scientific studies and practices of today, that is wise. To believe without question large-scale evolution of millions of years ago, that is faith.

I don't need to witness it there is other evidence. There are fossils, DNA, Celluar make up, chemical pathways, small scale results, and physical makeup of plants and animals.

Have you ever seen an electron, or proton? Should we stop teaching about them because you can't see them?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
To apply what we know about the evolution that we can witness today into the scientific studies and practices of today, that is wise. To believe without question large-scale evolution of millions of years ago, that is faith.

It's not faith if you have reason to think evolution applied millions of years ago too. Again, you could say the same thing about gravity. Is it foolish to assume gravity existed in the past? What if we have evidence that shows gravity existed in the past? Is that still foolish?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
When you claim it says something other than what it actually does say, then of course I am going to question your scholarship of it.

Except I didn't claim it said anything... :roll: You brought it out of the blue... I wonder why...
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Sunner
I'm actually kinda looking forward to having you, you seem like the kind of person one could actually discuss with

Be careful, you probably just haven't gotten to the part where he accuses you of not having read the bible for no reason at all. (I'm not joking either).

Oh don't worry.
Aside from being a bit drunk(well, ok very drunk...) I also played like $hit in CS tonight, so I'm a bit of a pissy mood, so right now probably wouldn't be a good time to discuss much of anything anyway...

Usually I'm a pretty levelheaded guy(well no, not really, but I can pretend...).
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Vic
To apply what we know about the evolution that we can witness today into the scientific studies and practices of today, that is wise. To believe without question large-scale evolution of millions of years ago, that is faith.
It's not faith if you have reason to think evolution applied millions of years ago too. Again, you could say the same thing about gravity. Is it foolish to assume gravity existed in the past? What if we have evidence that shows gravity existed in the past? Is that still foolish?
No, it's not foolish to assume that gravity existed in the past. In fact, as evidence does exist that gravity existed in the past, it would actually be wise and rational to assume that it did.

What would be unwise and irrational would be to believe and claim to know for fact that it existed in the past.
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
0
0
Holy sh!t, I don't know where to begin Vic.

First of all... there is a confusion running rampant, which you are propogating.

Evolution, today, now, in modern species, IS PROVEN AS FACT AND NOT AS A THEORY in innumerable scientific studies, both small and large scale, in controlled and uncontrolled environments, with different species, by different scientists, published in a myriad of scholarly and peer-reviewed journals all around the mofo-ing world.

Cerb- something being observable fact doesn't "still make it a theory" as you state. It becomes strangely enough, a fact.

That being said, evolution as an explanation for the origin of man, IS A THEORY.

Please read the above paragraph one more time so it'll get through your skull.

Let me bring your attention to something else Vic... you wrote

"You believe in aliens? Then you have faith. There is no proof of alien life, simply conjecture and and a dubious equation without definable variables. Once again, more religious-style beliefs declared as "science".

This statement is laughable. Read my post again paying careful attention to the last sentence... "our intellect may be vast in the scope of our earth, but completely amoebic compared to an alien intellegence. Once again, we have no way of knowing..." In fact, to avoid inane posts from people like you, I said "we have no way of knowing". All I was trying to say is that I disagree with the statement that humans are "near perfect".

You also wrote...

"Countless species all over the world kill their own kind. In fact, that's one of the hardest things about fish breeding. And the human practice of war is not contrary to evolution, it is crucially necessary to evolution. Do you and Infohawk even have a clue about what evolution is?" (Yes we do. But referring to the early paragraph in this post, the one you should have read twice, you don't. )

Firstly, countless species all over the world DO NOT KILL MEMBERS OF THE SAME SPECIES LIKE HUMANS DO. Sure, some may in rare, dire situations of food, shelter, mating, etc... But not because one Chimp believes in one God and goes after the Chimp that believes in another.

Second of all, since when IN THE HISTORY OF TIME, has war been "crucially necessary" to evolution?!!? Are you kidding me? Millions upon millions of speices evolve, even as we speak, and nowhere is war a "cruical" element. It's non-existent. Just think about it. If that's not too much to ask.

Also, your fish example? Breeding fish in captivity, in confined, unnatural spaces... hmmm... well, lemme ask you something bro... ever thought if those fish do the same things in the WILD, WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE!?!

You know what, never mind. Forget everything I just wrote. You're right. Good job. I stand corrected.

Do me a favor and don't have kids.


 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
A theory requires a hypothesis that has varied evidence to support it.
Observational facts over the years would qualify.
Without the ability to imperically(sp) predict the course of evolution, it is at the stage of being a theory. As already stated, much like gravity.

How does being proven with facts bring it into being an idea that is not a theory?
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
A theory requires a hypothesis that has varied evidence to support it.
Observational facts over the years would qualify.
Without the ability to imperically(sp) predict the course of evolution, it is at the stage of being a theory. As already stated, much like gravity.

How does being proven with facts bring it into being an idea that is not a theory?

Who ever said evolution isn't a theory?
 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
0
0
Predicting evolution has very little bearing on it being a proven scientific occurence. We can, in small controlled environments, make fruit flies evolve in certain ways according to various inputs. Predicting evolution is like trying to predict the weather... to much data to be perfect.

Species today evolve.... it is fact. Not theory. You have to understand this... it has no effect on the evolution vs. creationsim argument about the origin of mankind. But Cerb, once again, modern evolution is not a theory... it has been proven, under the microscope, genetically, etc. The scientific community does not call modern day evolution a theory. Just like gravity, which is never reffered to as a theory. Evolution, like gravity has been measured and proven to the point where calling it a theory would be asinine and ridiculous.

Evolution as the origin of mankind is a theory. So stick to that argument.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: Cerb
A theory requires a hypothesis that has varied evidence to support it.
Observational facts over the years would qualify.
Without the ability to imperically(sp) predict the course of evolution, it is at the stage of being a theory. As already stated, much like gravity.

How does being proven with facts bring it into being an idea that is not a theory?
Who ever said evolution isn't a theory?
Infohawk, though WileCoyote moreso:
"Cerb- something being observable fact doesn't "still make it a theory" as you state. It becomes strangely enough, a fact."

"And to all of you who say "evolution is a theory"... llike you Cerb...

For the last time, evolution is an observable scientific fact, going on around us as we speak. Read the posts above."
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: Cerb
A theory requires a hypothesis that has varied evidence to support it.
Observational facts over the years would qualify.
Without the ability to imperically(sp) predict the course of evolution, it is at the stage of being a theory. As already stated, much like gravity.

How does being proven with facts bring it into being an idea that is not a theory?
Who ever said evolution isn't a theory?
Infohawk

WRONG. Evolution is a theory = scientific law = fact for all practical purposes. That should make it easier for you to understand. All science is theory. The theory of gravity is a theory everyone takes as fact. There's no reason you shouldn't take evolution as scientific fact either.


 

wylecoyote

Member
Nov 14, 2004
141
0
0

Evolution today in our modern environment is not considered a theory. As I stated before "Evolution, like gravity has been measured and proven to the point where calling it a theory would be asinine and ridiculous."

Evolution as the origin for mankind is a theory.

Please Cerb, understand this.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: Cerb
A theory requires a hypothesis that has varied evidence to support it.
Observational facts over the years would qualify.
Without the ability to imperically(sp) predict the course of evolution, it is at the stage of being a theory. As already stated, much like gravity.

How does being proven with facts bring it into being an idea that is not a theory?
Who ever said evolution isn't a theory?
Infohawk, though WileCoyote moreso:
"Cerb- something being observable fact doesn't "still make it a theory" as you state. It becomes strangely enough, a fact."

"And to all of you who say "evolution is a theory"... llike you Cerb...

For the last time, evolution is an observable scientific fact, going on around us as we speak. Read the posts above."

Well I didn't see the post after mine until after I replyed. It is large a pointless argument about defintions because there is the theory of evolution and the fact that evolution occured.
 
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