Intel's gamble on high-speed computer chip [Itanium] not paying off

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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I feel like I'm a broken record sometimes, but I'm not sure why they are comparing the two.

The Opteron is never intended to occupy the same high-end server space like Itanium is shooting for... The ones currently occupied by Alpha, Sun's UltraSPARC and IBM's Power cpu's.

Now whether or not Intel hoped Itanium would work its way down to the workstation/low-end server market... Well, that would be in direct competition with x86-64.

But yeah, it did get a few things right that many articles don't notice. Such as the timing of Itanium's launch with the downfall of the high-tech economy.



 

ST4RCUTTER

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2001
2,841
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I agree with you Wingz but the problem is that some companies are opting out of the more costly Itanium altogether and purchasing 4 or 8-way Opteron systems instead. That puts Itanium in direct competition with Opteron whether Intel intended it that way or not. I am no sage of the semiconductor industry, but I'm willing to bet that something has got to give with respect to how Intel is positioning Itanium.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
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Even HP, who helped design the Itanium are going with Opteron as of Tuesday, but they have also said they will continue selling Itanium, and IIRC, they also believe that Opteron won't eat into Itanium markets, whether you choose to believe that or not is another matter.....
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
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Maybe this will help Intel propell the x86-64 xeons into the market faster and then put them into arrays of 4 and 8 to compete with AMD....Name sake and existing market recognition could swifty turn the ball back into their court...Big business likes the INtel brand but the bottom line gets kicked too hard with the cost of itaniums to opterons (even with 4 to 8 of them)....

itanium can be relegated to NASA, DOD, DOE, and wheather ppl....
 

Accord99

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2001
2,259
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The article is one Itanium-unfriendly spin on the sales figure. A Itanium friendly one could go like this:

1) ~110,000 I2 processors were sold in 2003, a significant increase over the year before and many sales occurred after the introduction of Madison at the end of June.
2) I2 system sales have been increasing at a rapid rate quarter over quarter; IDC estimates are 2003 Q1: 1900, Q2: 3250, Q3: 4957, Q4: ~8900 and Intel expects to double I2 processor sales in 2004.
3) For all the talk of Opteron's momentum, the total number of Itanium 2 processors sold in 2003 were likely to be higher than the number of Opteron processors sold, generating much higher revenues and used in systems of much greater value. Indeed, AMD management were tight-lipped about comparisons of relative sales between Opteron and Itanium in the second half of 2003.
4) HP's revenues from its I2 servers increased by 60% in its most recent quarter compared to the previous year and helped revenues from servers exceeding $250K in cost increase by 9%, despite declining sales of Alpha and PA-RISC based systems
5) If Intel can sell 200,000 I2 processors, that should generate several hundred million dollars of revenue which should be enough to completely fund all research and development of IPF processors, chipsets and compilers.
 

ST4RCUTTER

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2001
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Originally posted by: Accord99
The article is one Itanium-unfriendly spin on the sales figure. A Itanium friendly one could go like this:

1) ~110,000 I2 processors were sold in 2003, a significant increase over the year before and many sales occurred after the introduction of Madison at the end of June.
2) I2 system sales have been increasing at a rapid rate quarter over quarter; IDC estimates are 2003 Q1: 1900, Q2: 3250, Q3: 4957, Q4: ~8900 and Intel expects to double I2 processor sales in 2004.
3) For all the talk of Opteron's momentum, the total number of Itanium 2 processors sold in 2003 were likely to be higher than the number of Opteron processors sold, generating much higher revenues and used in systems of much greater value. Indeed, AMD management were tight-lipped about comparisons of relative sales between Opteron and Itanium in the second half of 2003.
4) HP's revenues from its I2 servers increased by 60% in its most recent quarter compared to the previous year and helped revenues from servers exceeding $250K in cost increase by 9%, despite declining sales of Alpha and PA-RISC based systems
5) If Intel can sell 200,000 I2 processors, that should generate several hundred million dollars of revenue which should be enough to completely fund all research and development of IPF processors, chipsets and compilers.



Those are definitely important points to consider. Only time will tell. One variable to consider is whether companies will choose to go with Opterons, Itaniums, or even x86-64 based Xeons. Once we get some performance numbers on those x86-64 Xeons we will have a better picture. I don't really see how they could perform much better however. All things being equal, the change from 32 to 64-bit operation should not change the performance delta between Opteron and Xeon very much. AMD has to be happier though. Before their revenue in this market was pretty much nil. Something is much better than nothing...
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
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There may have been only 100,000 Itanium's sold, but more than half were sold in the second half of 2003 alone. If sales continue to increase at this rate, then we have a winnar.
 

andreasl

Senior member
Aug 25, 2000
419
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It's just that Itanium is HPs replacement CPU for their Superdome systems (up to 64 CPUs) running HPs version of UNIX, HP-UX. If Itanium fails, then HP will go under eventually as they stopped their own CPU development some time ago. But this is just unlikely. So at least Intel will have a guaranteed market for their IPF chips with HPs (also for SGIs huge Altix HPC systems).

Does anyone know how many CPUs HP sell every year that goes into HP-UX systems? Including workstations, servers etc. It would be interesting to know.

If HP ever announces that they will port HP-UX to x86-64 THEN we can say for sure that Itanium is in deep trouble. But so far they have not even hinted in that direction. Quite the opposite in fact.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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1) ~110,000 I2 processors were sold in 2003, a significant increase over the year before and many sales occurred after the introduction of Madison at the end of June.

Accord99, just curious, where'd you get these figures?
 

Accord99

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
1) ~110,000 I2 processors were sold in 2003, a significant increase over the year before and many sales occurred after the introduction of Madison at the end of June.

Accord99, just curious, where'd you get these figures?

Primarily from the discussions at Realworldtech.com's forums.
http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=2121&Thread=1&entryID=28179&roomID=11
http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=2095&Thread=18&entryID=27755&roomID=11
The second link has responses by Intel employees David Mulvihill and Arcadian.

The 100K+ figure is also mentioned in the "32 vs. 64 bits" section of the article linked in the first post and was touted a little while ago by Intel.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
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Originally posted by: Accord99
The article is one Itanium-unfriendly spin on the sales figure. A Itanium friendly one could go like this:

1) ~110,000 I2 processors were sold in 2003, a significant increase over the year before and many sales occurred after the introduction of Madison at the end of June.
2) I2 system sales have been increasing at a rapid rate quarter over quarter; IDC estimates are 2003 Q1: 1900, Q2: 3250, Q3: 4957, Q4: ~8900 and Intel expects to double I2 processor sales in 2004.
3) For all the talk of Opteron's momentum, the total number of Itanium 2 processors sold in 2003 were likely to be higher than the number of Opteron processors sold, generating much higher revenues and used in systems of much greater value. Indeed, AMD management were tight-lipped about comparisons of relative sales between Opteron and Itanium in the second half of 2003.
4) HP's revenues from its I2 servers increased by 60% in its most recent quarter compared to the previous year and helped revenues from servers exceeding $250K in cost increase by 9%, despite declining sales of Alpha and PA-RISC based systems
5) If Intel can sell 200,000 I2 processors, that should generate several hundred million dollars of revenue which should be enough to completely fund all research and development of IPF processors, chipsets and compilers.

A few other things to consider:

- Dean Takahashi, one of the authors of the article, is a well-known Sun cheerleader. Casting Itanium as a technology that customers don't want or need in the first paragraph is hardly a good start for a fair article. For crying out load, he quotes Sun's CEO Scott McNealy. He seems to be eager to get snappy one-liners from Itanium critics, but ignores other analysts and its current growth momentum. IDC predicts Itanium servers will bring in $7.5 billion by 2007 (about 20% of the market, and IMO a conservative estimate) and Insight64 believes Itanium will reach 2.5 million processor units/year in the near future (this predication came after the 64-bit Xeon announcement). Even Peter Glaskowsky of MDR, often an Itanium critic, had this to say after the 64-bit Xeon announcement:

"Itanium is the fastest, most scalable server-processor family now on the market, the result of billions of development dollars. Xeon can?t possibly be ready to take over Itanium?s role in the server market before 2007. By that time, Intel will probably have sold over a million Itanium processors, making Itanium a solid commercial success in the market for high-end servers."

- The press, being fond of a "David vs. Goliath" story, seems obsessed with Itanium vs. Opteron server unit numbers. While Opteron shipped in more servers in 2003, Itanium's processor unit shipments and server revenue were higher. IDC reported in Q3 that Itanium revenue was $123 million vs. $61 million for Opteron. If we extrapolate these numbers for 2003, Itanium server revenue was $472 million vs. $200 million for Opteron.

- Sun SPARC sells in 75,000 systems per quarter, IBM POWER in 25,000 systems per quarter, and HP PA-RISC in about 20,000 per quarter. Even if Itanium's current growth slows considerably, it will mostly likely be outselling PA-RISC and POWER by the end of the year, and SPARC in 2005 or 2006.

- Itanium is currently growing the most in the 4- and 8-way and up market, which commands about 10% of the server unit volume but over half of the server revenue. This is a space in which x86 has very little penetration...with Itanium replacing PA-RISC and SPARC shrinking by 15% per year, there is a lot of opportunity here.

- The article insists that Itanium is only doing well in scientific computing, but last fall Intel disclosed that Itanium is now seeing more sales to enterprise customers than scientific clusters. If you look at the enterprise benchmarks (TPC-C, SPECjbb, SAP SD, Oracle), Itanium currently has a 30-50% (or more) performance lead over Xeon and Opteron in enterprise applications, such as large databases, enterprise resource planning, supply-chain management, and business intelligence.

- At IDF, Intel disclosed that Itanium and Xeon will share the same platform in the future. The intention is that Itanium will have cost-parity with Xeon platforms while maintaining twice the performance for enterprise applications. This will go a LONG way to helping Itanium gain success in the lower-end 2-way market.

- Itanium development is not slowing down, and the upcoming products (I've worked on a future Itanium processor) are going to blow some socks off.

I can't claim to see into the future, but the game is by no means over (as the critics like to paint it), it is just starting.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Nuff said




The difference is that you don't see Sohcan (or pm, or myself, etc...) writing articles bashing the competition.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: NFS4
Dean Takahashi, one of the authors of the article, is a well-known Sun cheerleader.

* not speaking for Intel Corp. *

Nuff said

I'm not a journalist. If one is going to write an article about the state and future of Itanium, the facts that Accord99 and I brought up are rather important, wouldn't you agree?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
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Whether the Itanium is a dud or not will be proven over time, but I think the Opteron has made the Itanium's future more questionable. Though they don't directly compete in the same Markets, I would imagine that Intel had plans to eventually move the Itanium Family into their traditional Xeon Markets. Opteron/Xeon 64 may close that possibility.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
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The questions in my mind are these:

1) How is the Itanium doing against its intended competition, the big-iron stuff from Sun/HP/etc, in that market?

2) How is that market as a whole developing, is it growing or is it being eaten away by x86-based stuff, and what is the outlook for it?

3) Does the introduction of a 64-bit extended line of processors mark a change in Intel's long-term roadmap for the IA64? How is this going to bear on #2 above?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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Thanks Accord99.

And I'd trust Sohcan and Wingznut for an objective opinion any day of the week.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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i'd rather continued alpha development, but compaq sure did f that up
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
i'd rather continued alpha development, but compaq sure did f that up

Intel got most of Alpha's development team when Compaq bought out DEC. It's rumoured that the multicore Itaniums had significant input from the DEC Alpha team.

BTW for what it's worth, I think that at this point, Itanium's biggest hurdle is cost. Intel's already taken a step in the right direction with the LV versions of Itanium but the cost of Itanium mobos is still way too high compared to Xeons and Opterons for it to compete. Intel is still marketing Itanium as big tin but IMHO its cost/performance should be good enough within a couple of years to make a splash in 2-way to 4-way servers & workstations.

IMHO, people see Opteron's 64-bit backwards compatibility and forget that this also means that the AMD64 ISA is carrying all the baggage of the hideous monster that x86 has become. IA64 is a much cleaner architecture that should allow for better scaling as well as better cost/performance in the future.
 
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