Intel's response to RyZen.

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
OK, so now I think we can say that Intel needs to respond to RyZen, and we can also say that the 7740K and 7640K were not responses to RyZen.

So we can move on to discussing what Intel's response might be.

I think it will have to be price cuts initially.

Unless they have been hiding something from us, it doesn't seem like they could have a new chip anytime soon.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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OK, so now I think we can say that Intel needs to respond to RyZen, and we can also say that the 7740K and 7640K were not responses to RyZen.

So we can move on to discussing what Intel's response might be.

I think it will have to be price cuts initially.

Unless they have been hiding something from us, it doesn't seem like they could have a new chip anytime soon.

It's Skylake-X -- that's Intel's HEDT solution.

In the meantime, Intel can slash prices on Broadwell-E. 6950X at $899, 6900K at $499, 6850K at $399, and 6800K at $349 ought to help until Intel has SKX-X out.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Moving Coffe Lake desktop chips to 2017 is probably a response, but this is not a new architechture.
Maybe through shady business practices and a lot of media misinformation.......

Or are they passed that now?

I can't see how that will work these days. It may have worked 10 years ago, but not now, imo.
 
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arandomguy

Senior member
Sep 3, 2013
556
183
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This is the slowest time of sales during the year. Even in a Zen vacuum at this point in Broadwell-E's lifespan I'd think they'd have been looking at diminished sales regardless. I'm not sure what type of reaction you want for HEDT?

In terms of mainstream, Zen as it is can't attack all areas of that segments serves due to no GPU. For the areas it will be competing in the actual competitiveness of each company's product might not be as clear as people are thinking here, at least in terms of perception for the overall market.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
This is the slowest time of sales during the year. Even in a Zen vacuum at this point in Broadwell-E's lifespan I'd think they'd have been looking at diminished sales regardless. I'm not sure what type of reaction you want for HEDT?

In terms of mainstream, Zen as it is can't attack all areas of that segments serves due to no GPU. For the areas it will be competing in the actually competitiveness of each company's product might not be as clear as people are thinking here, at least in terms of perception for the overall market.
Well, no reaction is certainly an option for Intel.

How much faster is SL-X likely to be than BW-E?

We know that KL-X and SL-X are going to a new socket, so that means buying new boards.

Are BW-E owners going to buy SL-X and new boards over RyZen and new boards?
It seems like there will be a decent price difference for those two options.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
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Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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For the long-term, rumor of Intel to break backwards compatibility after Tiger Lake to decrease die area and increase performance: http://www.bitsandchips.it/english/52-english-news/7854-rumor-even-intel-is-studying-a-new-x86-uarch

For the short term, Intel Skylake-X manufactured on on 14 nm + (https://www.servethehome.com/new-intel-xeon-e5-2699a-v4-skylake-ep-details/) for improved overclocking compared to Broadwell, and Coffee Lake, priced right.

Don't believe the Bits and Chips rumor, it's probably BS.
 

Insomniator

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2002
6,294
171
106
A press release titled, "Four cores is more than enough"

Basically this, for real. That's what they've been telling us with keeping the six core chips priced so high. Bulldozer being a complete piece of **** for 5 years only helped that cause.

AMD will need to prove that more cores is better for everyone.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
To be honest, I suspect that 4 cores will be enough for gaming- right now, anyway. Too many games don't scale well past 4 cores, and the 7700K still has a big single-thread advantage- 4.2GHz vs 3.6GHz, with significantly better IPC. I think it will still be the gaming king.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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To be honest, I suspect that 4 cores will be enough for gaming- right now, anyway. Too many games don't scale well past 4 cores, and the 7700K still has a big single-thread advantage- 4.2GHz vs 3.6GHz, with significantly better IPC. I think it will still be the gaming king.

I agree, 7700K (and then later 7740K) will be the gaming champ.
 

SAAA

Senior member
May 14, 2014
541
126
116
Moving Coffe Lake desktop chips to 2017 is probably a response, but this is not a new architechture.

I'm not so sure of the "no new architecture" part, consider this:
2015 → Skylake was released on time despite 14nm issues, µarch was ready anyway
2016 → Cannonlake... but 10nm is delayed, no tick that year yet µarch should be already fully designed
2017 → Icelake... 10nm still delayed, coming last quarter at best, same applies here µarch must be ready

So... 14nm++ coffelake is pretty much a stopgap before 10nm yield is good enough for larger dies, we know it's gonna be 6 cores and not much larger than Kaby (150mm^2 with IGP too), but we also know that there's no point in releasing Skylake 6 cores again when that's already happening in august (Skylake-e), thus my only explanation is that Coffe lake might incorporate some µarch improvements.

Maybe they'll port Icelake cores onto 14nm and call that Coffelake, maybe only Cannonlake cores, I don't know for sure but that's what I would do if I was at Intel.
It should also explain the 15% increase cited here:



Now Kabylake didn't achieve exactly 15% single thread improvement on all chips but it's close: stock 7700K runs 4.4GHz all core turbo while 6700K does all core at 4.0GHz → 10%
Extra clock/OC headroom alone grants better single thread here, but I don't expect 14nm++ to do as much... the slide clearly doesn't talk multi core performance so for Coffelkae to get >15% increase they must be combining say ~5% extra clocks and ~10% ish IPC gains.

6 cores, higher IPC than Zen (10-20%) and higher clocks should make for a compelling product if they price it at around 300$... oh you get the useless IGP too!
Realistically speaking: 8 cores is great and all but I'd rather stick with 6 faster ones in the future, the same way 4 faster cores were and are still suggested over 6 now.

6/4 = 50% more cores, 8/6 it's just 33%: multithread shouldn't be much different in this case but you get significantly higher single core speeds for common tasks.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,400
12,852
136
I think IPC jump will be higher.
I was probably being conservative on IPC and optimistic on frequency jump, the 20-25% performance increase is a ballpark figure after all.

To be honest, I suspect that 4 cores will be enough for gaming- right now, anyway. Too many games don't scale well past 4 cores, and the 7700K still has a big single-thread advantage- 4.2GHz vs 3.6GHz, with significantly better IPC. I think it will still be the gaming king.
Are you confident the current situation is not at all similar to the Sandy Bridge i5 vs. i7 debate?
 
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lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,211
597
126
Well, no reaction is certainly an option for Intel.

How much faster is SL-X likely to be than BW-E?

We know that KL-X and SL-X are going to a new socket, so that means buying new boards.

Are BW-E owners going to buy SL-X and new boards over RyZen and new boards?
It seems like there will be a decent price difference for those two options.
I think it is a longer term response for the following years, since ZEN will go through revisions and refinements as well. I thought about the whole SKL-X thing which did not make a whole lot of sense, and my tentative conclusion is that Intel is planning to chop iGPU off of their high performance (but mainstream, dual-channel) SKUs, depending on market reponse to ZEN. iGPUs take up huge die space in Socket 1151 CPUs and Intel does not get much props for them, and more importantly it is a hindrance to its fight against Zen.

TL/DR (a guess): SKL-X may be a sign of Intel chopping off iGPU in 7600K/7700K price brackets to better compete against ZEN.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
Frankly I want to see how Intel reacts in the server space. If AMD undercuts Intel by the same extent they are undercutting them in the enthusiast market, then they could make a big dent in Intel's market share. Zen was built to be a server SoC, and I think it's going to be great at that.
 

SAAA

Senior member
May 14, 2014
541
126
116
I was probably being conservative on IPC and optimistic on frequency jump, the 20-25% performance increase is a ballpark figure after all.

Rumor is that Skylake-X 8 core beats the Broadwell 10 core on Cinebench, 20% gain is the minimum for that. I do expect IPC to be >5% on average against desktop Skylake so there's still ~15% left that will come from 14nm+ higher clocks. If Kabylake tells anything is that there's no reason to not reach 5GHz OCs beside power with 8 core chips on the same node... and the die is soldered in this case so cooling should be better.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,409
1,655
136
So what games wouldn't run within margin of error levels as a 7700K on a Ryzen 1700 on real-world settings?
 
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