Intel's TIM continues to create heat bottleneck, many years after Ivy

[superstition]

So what? Intel's not gonna change anything.. lol

That's a prophecy, not a rebuttal.

I'm not sure if fortune tellers would have expected Devil's Canyon, a quad part specifically aimed at enthusiasts with the promise of better TIM.

 

[Burpo]

lol.. rebuttal rotflmao... Get over yourself dude.. You've heard from intel engineers as to why they use TIM.. Beating a dead horse just for the attention speaks loudly of unresolved issues. I'm out.. have fun.. lol

 

[superstition]

lol.. rebuttal rotflmao... Get over yourself dude.. You've heard from intel engineers as to why they use TIM.. Beating a dead horse just for the attention speaks loudly of unresolved issues. I'm out.. have fun.. lol

Making such claims about my motivation is both the ad hominem fallacy and more psychic reading.

I would rather discuss the topic, one that has received 113 votes now from other forum members and quite a range of recent input from people other than myself and you. I am here to discuss the topic, one that has drawn a 4 star rating as well as all the responses.

 

[Burpo]

Rotflmao.. 113 votes out of 13,000+ views... lmao... omg./... stop/... you're killing me..

 

[ShintaiDK]

Liquid Pro wouldn't work. Plain simple.

 

[superstition]

Liquid Pro wouldn't work. Plain simple.

Even if that's the case there are still the issues of solder and better polymer TIM.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Even if that's the case there are still the issues of solder and better polymer TIM.

One that will fit all the requirements? And I am not talking about YOUR requirements or any other one looking through their own glasses. But something that works for everyone over a very long timespan.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Linus did a video on this a couple weeks ago, I think. Delidded a 6700k, put new thermal paste on it, but he only saw a couple degrees drop in temperatures. Certainly not worth doing....

Not surprised. In the podcast a question was also raised about why Skylake OC so well in the broad spectra. And the reason was the architecture itself, rather than the wafer lottery or packaging.

 

[superstition]

One that will fit all the requirements? And I am not talking about YOUR requirements or any other one looking through their own glasses. But something that works for everyone over a very long timespan.

So far the only evidence I've seen against solder has involved subjecting chips to liquid nitrogen cooling. That's not an adequately large drawback to support the argument that enthusiast quads shouldn't be soldered.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So far the only evidence I've seen against solder has involved subjecting chips to liquid nitrogen cooling. That's not an adequately large drawback to support the argument that enthusiast quads shouldn't be soldered.

Isnt that just not because you rejected everything else as an option

 

[superstition]

Not surprised.

One result is a lot more anecdotal than the delidding craze, clearly a real thing in the enthusiast community for years now — that has even escalated to the introduction of expensive delidding machines. While one could imagine that enthusiasts are completely wrong about the benefit to delidding it is a difficult argument to make given its popularity, the articles from seemingly credible sources that support quite significant improvements, and the long duration of the practice.

Isnt that just not because you rejected everything else as an option

Instead of continuing to use the word "you" I suggest referring to the poll results. After that, I'd like to know what you're talking about. The only "everything else" is Intel's polymer TIM. There is an article I posted that said Devil's Canyon's TIM wasn't even improved over Intel's TIM. I also posted several articles that have found significant fault with Intel's polymer TIM.

I would also refer you to the most recent quote I posted from Anandtech concerning this subject.

After all this, maybe you can clarify what this "everything else" entails because, other than Intel's polymer TIM, I don't have any idea what you're referring to.

 

[superstition]

Now that I think of it, in terms of "everything else" — there were suggestions, like selling lidless CPUs and CPUs with a removable spreader but I don't see those as being nearly as likely to come to pass as the use of solder.

 

[bystander36]

The poll results here indicate the opposite. Most people aren't enthusiasts who want to buy i7 parts in the first place. Average people don't need an i7. They will be just fine with an i5.

The notion that what ordinary people want to buy negates the enthusiast market completely is highly questionable since data is showing that higher-end gaming is the one bright spot in desktop computing right now and that's a trend that's picking up.

All this concern over just what ordinary consumers want seems like an attempt to negate the existence and value of the entire Anandtech website — the entire enthusiast community.


The poll provides an option that closely supports that belief (the first one). However, most people did not choose it.

Plus, if Intel were to have a policy of using efficient thermal transfer for K chips that would be a big improvement over the current situation. The delidding practice would be nearly nullified and the vast majority of enthusiasts who want a quad with efficient thermal transfer will be able to buy that product, the one they clearly want if one looks at the poll results.

Your poll is pretty meaningless. You simply asked if people would rather have an premium option. Of course they say yes. Now if you asked the same people if solder should be used, but it would cost them $20 extra, you might get very different results. You also didn't give a K series option, so again, your poll does not give any indication if they are the ones who would care.

Basically, your poll is incomplete and you cannot draw the conclusions you are drawing from them.

 

[superstition]

You simply asked if people would rather have an premium option. Of course they say yes.

That's not what the poll says. It's bad enough to use hyperbole like "pretty meaningless" without misrepresenting what it says.

Now if you asked the same people if solder should be used, but it would cost them $20 extra, you might get very different results.

Anandtech's writer that I quoted was talking about one tenth of a cent. $20 looks like more hyperbole.

You also didn't give a K series option, so again, your poll does not give any indication if they are the ones who would care.

In retrospect it would have been an even better poll with a K option. Regardless, the options are good enough to provide a clear picture. The picture is that the large majority want even i5s to be soldered.

Not "simply." Unless someone has psychic powers (or the particular voters posted in this thread) they have no idea what arguments the people who voted have for their opinions.

Basically, your poll is incomplete and you cannot draw the conclusions you are drawing from them.

There is an apt expression: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There are enough options in the poll to provide a clear enough picture when it comes to the solder/heat bottleneck issue. And, for those who feel strongly about the K option there is the option to post in the topic about it — something that a number of people did do.

I've seen attempts to dismiss the entire enthusiast sector, attempts to dismiss the poll results (which includes arguments that the opinions of the people here are worthless), and various other blithe dismissals. I'm not very impressed by this. It's hyperbole and not really a rebuttal to the specific points in contention.

The real bottom line is that most enthusiasts who are looking at quads want the option to get a quad with solder or solder-like thermal transfer. The question is whether or not the next Devil's Canyon will have that. Will Intel let customers buy the product they want to buy or will it use solder to force them to buy the E chips or take the risk/expense of delidding?

 

[bystander36]

Sorry, but your poll does not give the results you seem to think it does. It is incomplete, and if it only costs 20 cents to use solder, there are likely reasons they choose not to use it.

I could make a poll that says all new PC purchases should include an ice cream cone. I bet most people would agree it's a great idea. It doesn't mean that it means all stores need to give ice cream cones with purchases.

Clearly you really like your poll, but I see lots of people who don't quite agree.

 

[Burpo]

Sorry, but your poll does not give the results you seem to think it does. Basically, your poll is incomplete and you cannot draw the conclusions you are drawing from them.

Clearly you really like your poll, but I see lots of people who don't quite agree.

Shhhh, don't burst the entertainment bubble.. In 2 1/2 months, the op has managed to get 113 votes (11.3 per week, YAY!) out of 13000+ views for his slanted, FUD poll/post..

Don't ruin it.. Let's see what else he comes up with.. Maybe he can get it up to 2 votes per day!

 

[pooptastic]

It would be nice, but honestly it's for an enthusiast market. I'm sure Intel's normal stuff works "good enough" on stock run processors.

After the whopping 5% increase in performance with Skylake, despite the node shrink, Intel is showing everyone exactly who's their bitch.

I hope Zen performs good. I'd like to update my all-AMD system with it if so.

 

[superstition]

It would be nice, but honestly it's for an enthusiast market.

I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. Delidding is certainly not practiced by anyone else.

 

[superstition]

Sorry, but your poll does not give the results you seem to think it does.

Likewise.

It is incomplete, and if it only costs 20 cents to use solder, there are likely reasons they choose not to use it.

The Anandtech article I quoted addressed that. You're not really saying anything here. Of course there are reasons, like:

1) Inducing people to pay more for what they don't need (E chips) by withholding efficient thermal transfer

2) Inducing people to destroy chips with delidding, and advertise delidding to others in the enthusiast community to induce them to try it

3) Inducing #1 via #2, when people settle for an E chip premium after failing at delidding

4) Saving a tiny amount of money on each chip (the point the Anandtech article brought up), putting that savings ahead of the much greater benefit of having efficient thermal transfer

5) Not recognizing that segmentation for enthusiasts would be improved by having i7 parts be soldered versus i5s, something that may become more important with the introduction of DX 12 which boosts the performance of lesser CPUs with games — or thinking the improvement to segmentation is less important than #1

I could make a poll that says all new PC purchases should include an ice cream cone. I bet most people would agree it's a great idea. It doesn't mean that it means all stores need to give ice cream cones with purchases.

I already rebutted this bit of hyperbole. There are plenty of sound reasons behind the choices the other enthusiasts in this forum made with their votes.

The bottom line is that the enthusiast gaming market involves the purchase of quad chips. Clearly, most enthusiasts want the option of being able to buy a quad with efficient thermal transfer.

Clearly you really like your poll, but I see lots of people who don't quite agree.

A definite minority, given the poll results.

 

[UaVaj]

How do you know this?

Plus, if someone is willing to pay for an i7 it seems quite reasonable they would be willing to invest in efficient thermal transfer.

That is why I chose the second poll option. It helps the segmentation and provides more value for the money. People on an ultra-tight budget could stick with i5 and below parts.

for the last time.

on a "k" cpu = definitely reasonable, only with the intention to overclock.

on a "locked" cpu = it is a moot moot moot discussion. people in general could care less if it is 50c or 70c. to add insult to injury. asking people in general to pay a premium for 20c less temp, when it simple DOES NOT EVEN MATTER is simple suicide in business 101.

please get over it already.

 

[superstition]

on a "k" cpu = definitely reasonable, only with the intention to overclock.

on a "locked" cpu = it is a moot moot moot discussion. people in general could care less if it is 50c or 70c. to add insult to injury. asking people in general to pay a premium for 20c less temp, when it simple DOES NOT EVEN MATTER is simple suicide in business 101.

please get over it already.

This is the same contradictory point that was made before:

Claim A: K chips should be soldered
Claim B: Get over the desire to see anything other than E chips soldered.

Why repost the same contradiction, particularly since it doesn't in any way refute what I've been advocating?

There is a poll option for one i7 SKU having solder. That's close enough to saying "just K parts". Most people chose i5s as well as i7s, which is a lot broader than my vote was. My vote was that i7 parts should have solder. I have posted solid logic for why I voted that way. Just posting "once again" and "get over it" doesn't strengthen your argument.

Personally, I think "K" parts should be i7s only. It seems rather silly to solder an i5 because it's unlocked and not solder an i7 because it isn't. But, I don't have a serious issue with choosing to solder K i5s and K i7s, even though it's rather silly. Obviously that's a much better scenario than the current situation.

 

[bystander36]

I already rebutted this bit of hyperbole. There are plenty of sound reasons behind the choices the other enthusiasts in this forum made with their votes.

The bottom line is that the enthusiast gaming market involves the purchase of quad chips. Clearly, most enthusiasts want the option of being able to buy a quad with efficient thermal transfer.


A definite minority, given the poll results.

You gave no one the option to choose "K" series, only i3, i5 and i7. They had no option, so they choose the one which was closest to their needs. I'd bet, on an enthusiast board, most people with i5's and above have "K" series chips.

You can't say your poll shows that most people would want it on an i5 or better instead of the "K" series, because you never gave the option to choose the "K" series.

 

[superstition]

You can't say your poll shows that most people would want it on an i5 or better instead of the "K" series, because you never gave the option to choose the "K" series.

When that becomes a big deal in the overall context of the thread I'll be sure to worry about it. This topic is about the TIM/solder situation in general, not picking nits about precisely which quads should be soldered. Even one soldered quad would be a big improvement over the current situation.

The bottom line is that the enthusiast gaming market involves the purchase of quad chips. Clearly, most enthusiasts want the option of being able to buy a quad with efficient thermal transfer.

 

[bystander36]

When that becomes a big deal in the overall context of the thread I'll be sure to worry about it. This topic is about the TIM/solder situation in general, not picking nits about precisely which quads should be soldered. Even one soldered quad would be a big improvement over the current situation.

You asked when it should be applied, and gave an incomplete list. You'll never know if it is a big deal or not if you don't poll for it.

The "K" series is most certainly the most logical line to draw. No one but OCers need better thermals and only the "K" series OC's.

 

[MrTeal]

You asked when it should be applied, and gave an incomplete list. You'll never know if it is a big deal or not if you don't poll for it.

The "K" series is most certainly the most logical line to draw. No one but OCers need better thermals and only the "K" series OC's.

To be fair, even for users with locked i7 chips, if the price difference really is sub $1, they could easily recover the cost in a year if they use their computer at high load. The difference between 60C and 80C could easily be 10W at full load (image cribbed from idc's thread)

At 4 hours of 100% load a day, 5 days a week that's 10.4kWh a year delta. That's a buck fifty if you're paying 15 cents a kWh. As a rule, cooler is always better unless you really need to give something up to get it.