Intel's TIM continues to create heat bottleneck, many years after Ivy

[III-V]

I don't really think the answer to replacing expensive indium is more expensive indium.

 

[superstition]

No it's not; not when it works fine at stock speeds. I don't think there's any reason to think Intel will change their mind on this esp since they are pushing the E line.

A 16C bottleneck at stock is not fine in comparison with efficient heat transfer from solder, liquid pro, or similar. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's acceptable in such an expensive product to have such substandard thermal transfer.

As I recall, a review of Broadwell said that the 5675C likely outperformed the 5775C in quite a few games because it was able to turbo more. TDP is related to voltage which is related to heat. A CPU that runs quite a bit cooler because of efficient thermal transfer can run faster due to lower voltage required within a given TDP so its stock performance should be better and it should require less cooling noise for the performance.

I don't really think the answer to replacing expensive indium is more expensive indium.

I don't think Indium is all that expensive in the context of an i7.

 

[coercitiv]

A CPU that runs quite a bit cooler because of efficient thermal transfer can run faster due to lower voltage required within a given TDP so its stock performance should be better and it should require less cooling noise for the performance.

AFAIK it's a bit backwards: a "hot" CPU will require a bit less voltage than a "cold" CPU to operate at the same frequency.

The real problem is static power (leakage) which increases with temperature in a non-negligible fashion. A "hot" CPU will consume significantly more power than a "cold" CPU.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I would love to see some independent testing of that, considering the top end is higher than to best pure metal (Silver @ 429, Copper is ~400). Indium is 92W/mK and Gallium is 40.

So would I. Those thermal conductivity numbers sound crazy-good.

I know it's possible for compounding and alloying to change thermal conductivity of substances (and/or alter how thermal conductivity changes with respect to operating temperature), but that's wild.

It's also a lot more than it would cost to get a chip with proper heat transfer, if Intel would deign to sell us what we actually want.

Oh I know. But what you get from a delid tool is a bit different, especially for that minority that wants to run bare die. Those folks must like the TIM since it makes removal of the IHS so easy.

 

[ehume]

An explanation of that indium-gallium glue is here.

 

[frozen_one]

Sorry if this is off topic (noob here) but what method did you guys use for delidding? I'm doing some work on a tool that will safely delid my Skylake; I find the PCB is very flimsy.

 

[Burpo]

Been done already & for sale awhile now..

 

[DrMrLordX]

If you can make your product less expensive than the existing one then have at it. Just be advised that only a limited number of users want to delid their Skylake CPUs.

 

[frozen_one]

Been done already & for sale awhile now..

I saw a couple 3d printed tools like the Skylake Twister, but the printing isn't as great as it sounds.

A German bloke machined a cool one for about 90 euros but I'm not a rich man, the materials only cost about 20 bucks, just need to cut them

 

[III-V]

I don't think Indium is all that expensive in the context of an i7.

Not to you, but to Intel it is. I have no idea how expensive these things are to make -- $30, $50; who knows -- but adding $5 to that is very significant.

You add that $5, and it gets multiplied everywhere through their price structure. E.g., your i7 now sells for $30 more.

 

[superstition]

Not to you, but to Intel it is. I have no idea how expensive these things are to make -- $30, $50; who knows -- but adding $5 to that is very significant.

You add that $5, and it gets multiplied everywhere through their price structure. E.g., your i7 now sells for $30 more.

This still doesn't explain, even if your math is even close to correct, why there shouldn't be one quad i7 SKU for enthusiasts with proper heat transfer — especially since the substrate has now been thinned.

Enthusiasts obviously want proper thermal transfer performance. The poll results are clear.

Plus, if they do what I voted for the better thermal performance is another way to make a greater separation between the i7 and i5 line. Broadwell's i5, for instance, actually beat the i7 in a number of games in Anandtech's review. Particularly for 65W parts like that the i7 could have pulled ahead with more efficient thermal performance.

 

[III-V]

I don't disagree with the desire for better heat transfer. I am not a fan of market segmentation, though, in its current state -- it's nice when you use it to adapt things and be creative, however it is just serving to make the lives of people with privilege better, at the cost of those without it.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I don't disagree with the desire for better heat transfer. I am not a fan of market segmentation, though, in its current state -- it's nice when you use it to adapt things and be creative, however it is just serving to make the lives of people with privilege better, at the cost of those without it.

Intel's job is to make money. Segmentation is great for business.

 

[rgallant]

Enthusiasts obviously want proper thermal transfer performance. The poll results are clear.


just saying
or do they want cooler running cpu's at mid to high clocks but not maxed overclocks going over the safe max volts?
I just deal with the issue by myself.

my cpu has 18c water into the block [25c room] and if that was not enough I'd mod the case to include a 120mm fan behind the cpu socket.
most peeps use a $ 30.00 cpu cooler they picked up on sale.
[and they want a cooler running cpu from intel for free maybe]

same with gpu's mine are idling at 20-21c [room at 24c] at max load never over 33c

there are lots of high end cooling options out there imo for non delidded chips.

 

[superstition]

Intel's job is to make money. Segmentation is great for business.

It can have greater segmentation by having soldered i7s and polymer TIM i5s.

The Broadwell example is a perfect illustration of why.

 

[Phynaz]

my cpu has 18c water into the block [25c room] and if that was not enough I'd mod the case to include a 120mm fan behind the cpu socket.
most peeps use a $ 30.00 cpu cooler they picked up on sale.
[and they want a cooler running cpu from intel for free maybe]

same with gpu's mine are idling at 20-21c [room at 24c] at max load never over 33c

I'd really like to know how you've broken the laws of physics by having your chips run cooler than ambient.

 

[crashtech]

It can have greater segmentation by having soldered i7s and polymer TIM i5s.

They call that HEDT...

 

[Dufus]

I'd really like to know how you've broken the laws of physics by having your chips run cooler than ambient.

Errr, by using chilled water cooling that was chilled below ambient room temperature one would presume.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I'd really like to know how you've broken the laws of physics by having your chips run cooler than ambient.

His PC is cold with solution!

 

[superstition]

They call that HEDT...

Check the poll results and the fact that quad i7s like Devil's Canyon were specifically called enthusiast parts — parts made for enthusiasts, designed to appeal to enthusiasts, and sold to enthusiasts.

Intel even came out with a PR campaign to tell everyone how it had improved the thermal transfer performance of its polymer TIM. Of course, according to one article I posted, that didn't happen.

The other problem with the "E" point is that they aren't available to buy so telling people to buy them instead is rather impractical for those who can't wait around. As long as Intel goes for long periods of time without releasing "E" chips with updated cores the "just get an E" point is further weakened.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Every k chip is an enthusiast overclocker CPU. So is the i7-5775c.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Check the poll results and the fact that quad i7s like Devil's Canyon were specifically called enthusiast parts — parts made for enthusiasts, designed to appeal to enthusiasts, and sold to enthusiasts.

Intel even came out with a PR campaign to tell everyone how it had improved the thermal transfer performance of its polymer TIM. Of course, according to one article I posted, that didn't happen.

The other problem with the "E" point is that they aren't available to buy so telling people to buy them instead is rather impractical for those who can't wait around. As long as Intel goes for long periods of time without releasing "E" chips with updated cores the "just get an E" point is further weakened.

Well, the general consensus in that the new polymer did allow DC to run a few degrees cooler, but obviously not enough to make you happy. As far as the "E" chips, they are perfectly available to buy, dont know why you would say they arent. Admittedly it would be nice if K chips had solder instead of TIM. From a production standpoint though, I am not sure how practical/expensive it is to do this. If it were easy and relatively inexpensive, I would think intel would do it and sell the chips at a higher price. Or maybe there just arent that many users that would be interested.

 

[Phynaz]

His PC is cold with solution!

 

[crashtech]

I'm sure you guys can see the writing on the wall. It's not like I didn't vote for indium solder to be used on mainstream CPUs, but guess what, it's not going to happen. Enthusiasts who want to stay with the mainstream platform can delid, for those who don't want to do that or who need more cores, there's HEDT. Unless or until competition in the enthusiast desktop segment returns, that's the reality...

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm sure you guys can see the writing on the wall. It's not like I didn't vote for indium solder to be used on mainstream CPUs, but guess what, it's not going to happen. Enthusiasts who want to stay with the mainstream platform can delid, for those who don't want to do that or who need more cores, there's HEDT. Unless or until competition in the enthusiast desktop segment returns, that's the reality...

Intel should just sell delidded CPUs already.