Intel's TIM continues to create heat bottleneck, many years after Ivy

[LTC8K6]

Why? Consumers are completely at their mercy.

Why not?

It would generate a lot of good will. They could market them to overclockers and charge a little more per chip for the soldered IHS. Give the chips a cool name, too.

AMD is free to market like this as well.

They already single out the good chips through binning anyway.

It may not be as simple as I would like it to be, though.

First, gimme' an unlocked Skylake i3.

 

[superstition]

Why not?

It would generate a lot of good will. They could market them to overclockers and charge a little more per chip for the soldered IHS. Give the chips a cool name, too.

They have done this with somewhat improved TIM (Devil's Canyon). Why make the extra effort to use solder when you can use TIM and get praised for that by the tech press and get sales?

Until AMD is viable competition we are at Intel's mercy in terms of TIM.

To paraphrase Splave again, he comments that the thermal paste (TIM) on his Skylake is certainly worse than that of Devil's Canyon. If the extra mass on the IHS is coming from a taller heatspreader (by virtue of the smaller package substrate), then more TIM is needed otherwise there will be substantial air bubbling of the TIM between the CPU and the heatspreader. By replacing his own thermal paste and resecuring the heatspreader, he saw an 18°C drop in temperatures at his highest air overclock with the old paste (5.1 GHz at 1.48 volts) - from 96ºC that overheated to 78ºC on the warmest core. An 18°C drop is immense. ... PCWatch confirms that switching out the paste with CoolLaboratory’s Liquid Pro (a liquid metal adhesion interface) reduced temperatures at 4.6 GHz from 88ºC to 68ºC

 

[sm625]

By this logic, I should just shoot myself in the foot, so I could get faster in the future when it heals up!!

No, its more like "I should wear a 10 lb weight on each foot, so I can take them off at some point in the future when a real competitor shows up and then I can outrun them." People actually do this...

 

[LTC8K6]

They have done this with somewhat improved TIM (Devil's Canyon). Why make the extra effort to use solder when you can use TIM and get praised for that by the tech press and get sales?

Until AMD is viable competition we are at Intel's mercy in terms of TIM.

Liquid Pro doesn't seem suitable for a manufacturing process, given the way it's supposed to be applied?

 

[MrTeal]

No, its more like "I should wear a 10 lb weight on each foot, so I can take them off at some point in the future when a real competitor shows up and then I can outrun them." People actually do this...

That's because times don't matter during your training runs. I doubt Intel investors would approve of a strategy of sandbagging for a couple years in the off chance AMD really starts pushing them again.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Liquid Pro doesn't seem suitable for a manufacturing process, given the way it's supposed to be applied?

Liquid Ultra might be, though.

 

[superstition]

Gallium-based "liquid metal" TIMs are not the only alternative to Intel's low-performance polymer TIM. As the Anandtech quote points out, the polymer TIM used on Skylake is said to be worse than what was used on Devil's Canyon. From what I've read that TIM wasn't all that great either.

People have gotten significant temp reductions by using better polymer TIM than what Intel uses. While it would clearly be better to not have polymer TIM at all, due to its overall low heat transfer in comparison with metal, the issue of alternative TIM is not confined to liquid metal products unless there is some reason why Intel has to use polymer TIM that has worse performance than highly-rated consumer polymer TIMs.

 

[Jovec]

The absolute best TIM or soldering solution would add, what, a few dollars to Intel's cost per CPU? So pass it on to me at a $5 or $10 mark-up.

FFS, they already pass on other costs like private jets, golden parachutes, expensive corporate retreats, political lobbying, lost lawsuit judgements, lavish office buildings, builder kickbacks, etc.

At least this way I'm actually paying for something that benefits me.

 

[jpiniero]

The absolute best TIM or soldering solution would add, what, a few dollars to Intel's cost per CPU? So pass it on to me at a $5 or $10 mark-up.

Why do that when you can use the TIM as an incentive for people who would care to go E-line?

 

[Jovec]

Why do that when you can use the TIM as an incentive for people who would care to go E-line?

If the E-line was current gen I'd probably agree with you.

 

[UaVaj]

the-truth-about-cpu-soldering

now we know why. so get over it.

 

[superstition]

If the E-line was current gen I'd probably agree with you.

With EDRAM also.

now we know why. so get over it.

Is that the article that said solder is a problem when you're dealing with liquid nitrogen cooling? If so, it's not very relevant outside of the extreme enthusiast fringe.

 

[coercitiv]

now we know why. so get over it.

What exactly do you know? Put it down in writing please.

 

[UaVaj]

What exactly do you know? Put it down in writing please.

1) we all know that all cpu starts out as a 6700k. and depending on quality of yield. G3900 are binned.

2) soldiering silicon to copper isn't exactly a walk in the park. not every cpu needs soldiering. tim is more than sufficient for majority of sku. especially slower sku.


only time soldiering is warranted is - upper class cpu. such as a K processor. where its intended usage is to push it to the max threshold.

 

[superstition]

only time soldiering is warranted is - upper class cpu. such as a K processor. where its intended usage is to push it to the max threshold.

What about ultra low voltage parts where more efficient heat transfer means lower voltage at a given clock?

And, then there's the simple issue of pricing/segmentation. Anything over an i5 in my opinion should be soldered.

 

[UaVaj]

What about ultra low voltage parts where more efficient heat transfer means lower voltage at a given clock?

And, then there's the simple issue of pricing/segmentation. Anything over an i5 in my opinion should be soldered.

excellent point but sadly there is minimal profit to be made from such sku.

u do realize that even a locked high end i5/i7 run cool enough with the stock hsf. so unless you are buying a K part and plan to push it to the max. solder is moot. so do get over it.



this is as wacko as the water cooling folks wanting to run at 45C for a chip that can happily run at 85C. at least the water cooling folks are willing to coin up $$$.$$ toward their conviction. sadly the same cannot be said for the locked i5/i7 folks. and especially for low voltage parts.

 

[coercitiv]

What about ultra low voltage parts where more efficient heat transfer means lower voltage at a given clock?

What ultra low voltage parts?

Also, you do know needed voltage decreases at higher temps, not the other way around.

 

[superstition]

so unless you are buying a K part and plan to push it to the max. solder is moot. so do get over it.

Those two statements are contradictory.

 

[frozentundra123456]

What is contradictory about it? As far as I know, all intel chips run fine at stock with tim. I would bet 99% of cpu users dont even know what TIM is, and couldnt care less. That statement makes perfect sense.

 

[MrTeal]

Read the . as the period after an abbreviation as used in American English, and the statement makes better sense and is not contradictory. You might disagree you need to get over it, but that's another issue.

"so unless you are buying a K part and plan to push it to the maximum solder is moot. so do get over it."

 

[UaVaj]

nvm

 

[superstition]

Read the . as the period after an abbreviation as used in American English, and the statement makes better sense and is not contradictory. You might disagree you need to get over it, but that's another issue.

"so unless you are buying a K part and plan to push it to the maximum solder is moot. so do get over it."

Of course it's contradictory to make the claim that there is a major usage for solder (K chips) and the person who wants to see solder used by Intel for something other than E chips should get over it.

When the K chips come soldered then I will be over it along with all the others who want efficient thermal transfer for their money and don't need an E chip.

Claim A: There is a legitimate usage for solder in something below E chips (K chips).
Claim B: Get over your desire to see solder in something other than E chips.

Contradictory.

 

[Burpo]

Since you're so dissatisfied with intel and their TIM, might I suggest you boycott them, and not buy their product?

 

[superstition]

Since you're so dissatisfied with intel and their TIM, might I suggest you boycott them, and not buy their product?

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Burpo]

Your welcome.. I'm sure intel won't lose any sleep over it..