Intel's TIM continues to create heat bottleneck, many years after Ivy

[superstition]

Intel claimed to have improved the TIM for Devil's Canyon but according to this article that didn't happen.

Another article finds a 16C bottleneck at just stock with the 6700K due to the TIM and that's not even with a high-quality solder. Since the substrate is significantly thinner the delidding thing is even riskier than before.

Skylake delidding, Does it improve Thermals?

Japanese Publication PC Watch has delidded Skylake revealing a tiny CPU die and a much thinner IHS, than previous generation Broadwell and Haswell based CPUs. PC Watch has used the popular vice method for deliding their i7 6700K, but it is worth noting that this method is more dangerous than with previous generation Intel CPUs, as the substrate of the CPU is much thinner. With Skylake the IHS is only 0.8m thick, compared to Haswell which is 1.1mm thick.

With the Coollaboratory TIM we see the most significant decreased in thermals, with the CPU dropping from 74 degrees to 58 degrees at stock settings and from 88 degrees to 68 degrees at an overclock of 4.6GHz. These results are highly significant, showing again that Intel's thermal solution ... will again force professional overclockers and enthusiasts to delid their chips in order to get the best thermal performance.

previously:

Intel cuts corners on Ivy Bridge Thermal Interface Material (TIM)

It has since been revealed, following intense forum discussion, with a report on the matter first from overclockers and then confirmed by Japanese tech portal, PC Watch, that Intel has moved away from using the fluxless solder found in Sandy Bridge and is instead applying run-of-the-mill thermal interface material paste, to join the chip's integrated heat spreader to the CPU die.

Though exact figures remain a secret, fluxless solder generally has a much improved thermal conductivity, typically in the range of 80W/mK, whilst a standard TIM paste has only 5W/mK, making the new solution potentially 16 times less efficient. With increasing die power densities, Ivy bridge should be even more demanding on thermal dissipation per metre, yet, thanks to testing from a PC Watch investigator, where the Ivy Bridge TIM was replaced with aftermarket alternatives, it was proven that the stock-TIM was the primary culprit in increased Ivy Bridge temperatures

Intel ‘Devil’s Canyon’ chips’ NGPTIM is still not efficient – research

Intel Corp.’s NGPTIM [next-generation polymer thermal interface material], which was supposed to bring back record overclocking capabilities to the company’s processors is better than its predecessor, but is significantly worse than commercially available thermal interfaces, a new research has found out.

Earlier this year Intel Corp.’s promised that its Core i7-4790K and Core i7-4690K “Devil’s Canyon” microprocessors will have considerably better overclocking potential compared to the original chips based on the “Haswell” micro-architecture released last year thanks to improved thermal interface between the die and the heat-spreader as well as revamped power supply circuity. However, actual overclocking attempts of a Core i7-4790K central processing unit by KitGuru’s reviewer Luke Hill did not reveal any breakthroughs. Apparently, the reason for that is quite simple: the new thermal interface that Intel uses still has limited efficiency.

With the latest “Devil’s Canyon” central processing units Intel started to use a new substance called the NGPTIM, which is more efficient than its predecessors. However, a research conducted by 3DNews web-site has revealed that the NGPTIM is far less efficient than even affordable thermal pastes available on the market.

In both cases Intel’s NGPTIM could only outperform KPT-8 (an old thermal paste developed in 1974 in the USSR) paste and was less efficient than inexpensive Arctic Cooling MX-2. Highly-efficient Coollaboratory Liquid Pro compound proved to be dramatically better than Intel’s NGPTIM.

The only significant cost associated with using quality thermal transfer material is that it would end the delidding practice for the most part, robbing Intel of profit from killed chips in pursuit of effective heat transfer.

 

[beginner99]

K models should have better TIM. You pay more for the K branding so I would expect it to overclock better as well. However from a manufacturing point of view it's obvious this won't work. Because it will get the K branding after the fact eg after it^s binned.

This would only work for a special CPU like Devils canyon. Maybe Kaby Lake will offer something along this line.

Or maybe just expects you to go HEDT if you want better TIM.

 

[Rakehellion]

I really don't care much at all.

 

[Dufus]

the-truth-about-cpu-soldering

 

[know of fence]

The apologetic fanboi's take-on-cpu-soldering

"Stop hating on Intel. Intel has some of the best engineers in the world when it comes to metallurgy. They know exactly what they are doing and the reason for conventional thermal paste in recent desktop CPUs is not as simple as it seems." - End of Quote

This fallacy is known as appeal to authority.
Intel folks of course know better than anyone what they are doing when it comes to Intel products, but the issue is that they have different interests than us. Intel's strategy is among other things to intentionally hamstring their desktop products to sell the more profitable and short lived mini/mobile PCs. TIM is also a cost cutting measure of course.
While people say that that the performance gap between low power processors and desktops is shrinking, the slowdown in node development means that the time gap, the time it would take for a mobile CPU to achieve performance parity to a desktop is actually drastically increasing.

Intel is also pushing Overclockers outside of mainstream onto the economically unattractive, crazy and soldered quad channel platform, something that can hardly be justified with typical PC use.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Delid always gave much better thermals. And we see Skylake OCs to 4.9Ghz with TIM and IHS. So I dont see the issue.

If you want to go extreme in the first place and delid, then its better than soldering. SB was a pain to delid.

Liquid Pro got its own cons that wouldn't make it a viable alternative.

 

[Tsavo]

It's funny that a company that leads the entire world on making very small things can't nail down a CPU lid to CPU gap.

 

[Soulkeeper]

the-truth-about-cpu-soldering

nice read, thanks

 

[KaRLiToS]

http://www.overclock.net/t/1585938/are-you-going-to-demand-that-intel-stop-scamming-enthusiasts/0_30

Pretty heated debate

 

[dark zero]

And considering that is 15 degrees and is a LOT... it heavily affects performance at really long term since remember that higher temperatures degrades the product faster. And remember that degraded products has less performance than OK ones.

Even more, if they are nerfing the desktop tier... that is really bad news. Intel is killing their own industry in that way.

 

[PliotronX]

Should be an option for not caring because I remove noobshields anyway. The concave or convex IHS also contributes to artifical insulation.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Should be an option to vote "This is old news". It has been an issue since Ivy, as one of the linked articles points out. Dont see anything new here except that it continues for Skylake, which I think everyone expected.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Just because the problem has been present since Ivy does not mean it's too late to fix in later generations. I sure hope they will at least.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I think people forget those SBs that got cracked soldering and got extreme temperatures.

I know one that had to replace it, after idling at 80C or so. No matter the board, cooler, settings. And load was impossible.

 

[BigDaveX]

The only significant cost associated with using quality thermal transfer material is that it would end the delidding practice for the most part, robbing Intel of profit from killed chips in pursuit of effective heat transfer.

I don't think that'd account for enough sales to really affect Intel's bottom line. If anything, they probably lost more sales when they started soldering the IHS on... which, granted, was probably because that happened to be when they released Prescott.

 

[Charlie98]

K models should have better TIM. .

My thoughts exactly, although it would probably raise the price significantly.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Rather than argue about TIM. It should be about why they dont sell an already delidded SKU. If you worry about temperatures you wont have the IHS on in the first place, solder or not.

 

[Headfoot]

The solder on the 5820k pushed me into getting that over 6700k, amongst other reasons

 

[Rakehellion]

TIM is also a cost cutting measure of course.

Yeah right. The biggest cost cutting measure has been their lackluster research budget.

 

[Rakehellion]

"Stop hating on Intel. Intel has some of the best engineers in the world when it comes to metallurgy. They know exactly what they are doing and the reason for conventional thermal paste in recent desktop CPUs is not as simple as it seems." - End of Quote

This fallacy is known as appeal to authority.

It really isn't an appeal to authority when the guy did research and explained his methods in detail so you can be an authority yourself.

 

[Ken g6]

The poll doesn't cover my answer. I believe the correct answer is that the K-series CPUs should be soldered. Especially when BCLK overclocking is back, that would provide a clear advantage for the K CPUs.

Intel saved 4GHz base clock for Devil's Canyon. Maybe they'll bring back solder for Kaby Lake?

 

[PliotronX]

Rather than argue about TIM. It should be about why they dont sell an already delidded SKU. If you worry about temperatures you wont have the IHS on in the first place, solder or not.

 

[master_shake_]

Rather than argue about TIM. It should be about why they dont sell an already delidded SKU. If you worry about temperatures you wont have the IHS on in the first place, solder or not.

because some idiot is going to buy it crank down the heatsink crack it and complain on forums about how he got ripped off.

then he'll rma it and intel won't cover physical abuse and he'll complain even more.

so to skip all that they just won't not include one.

 

[sm625]

Hopefully there will be a delidding i3 thread when those overclocking motherboards finally become available for under $100.

 

[DigDog]

why is this even a poll. the TIM situation is scandalous, and all cpus should have solder-quality TIM.