interesting.. counterpoint to d3: hl2 30% faster on ati hardware?

[Childs]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: oldfart

Originally posted by: Rollo
The screenshot in that article looked like a$$ compared to D?

Oh well, the original HL based on the Q1 engine in Q3 times wasn't exactly the cutting edge of graphics either, but people loved the game.

Personally, I care a lot more about Doom3 and Quake 4 than I do HL2.

It was actually VERY loosely based on Q1 engine to start, but was its own engine by the time it was done. It was out during Q2 days, not Q3 and had better graphics than Q2 did at the time and (MUCH) better SP gameplay. Q2 had (MUCH) better MP gameplay.

iirc the original hl was based on q2 engine.....

It was based on modded Q1 engine.

And it appears there is no reason for the 6800's to be 30% slower than the X800s in HL2, unless the framerates at 1600x1200 are 3fps vs 2fps. If it wasn't for the Shader Day and voucher fiascos I would give Valve the benefit of the doubt, but logically you can't have ATI on the HL2 package if the Nv cards are faster. If there is still at 30% deficit when HL2 shipped I'll have no doubts in my mind that Valve optimized exclusively for ATI. 30% would probably put the 6800's on par with the 9800s, which can't possibly be true.

 

[Marsumane]

What settings? What cards? What settings? What drivers? What specific area? WHAT NUMBERS!?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Childs
It was based on modded Q1 engine.

ahh.. you're right. some, but very little q2 code.

for those interested: Half-Life -- Quake or Quake II engine?

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: reever

dont trust gabe as far as i can throw him after he screwed me last year

Yeah, he was totally off on those 5900/9800 numbers from shader day, it's not like the FX's still get beat with the beta benchmarks on ixbt, he was completely wrong, and those numbers he talked about concerning 6800's a year before they came out, sheesh what was he thinking :roll:

i was refering to when HL2 was due to be released but delayed,and the reasons it was delayed. i could care less about the 5900/9800 numbers in half life 2, i did not buy either, people that buy cards based on what some guy tells them about performance of a card in a game that has not been released yet are making bad moves IMO. I know loads of people listened to him last year when he said it would be out in september 2003 and that the 9800 XT ruled in it. People shelled out top dollor for HL2 vouchers and for a card that's value has decreased, a card they bought with the excuse of playing that one game. I was going to wait till the day Doom3 was released and see the numbers in it before i went with ATI/nvidia, Doom3 was released, and my 6800GT is ordered. The 5900/9800 did not offer enough of a performance increase over my TI4x00 to justify buying either, for i use not FSAA (cause it screws up text in 1942) and run at low resolutions because of my monitor's size.

Good points. Mainly:

1. Never buy a videocard based on Beta Benchmarks of an unrealeased game
2. Never buy a videocard for the sole reason of playing a game that hasn't been released just yet as something better will have come out by then or prices will have dropped, or worse, the very game being delayed
3. Never buy a videocard based on the performance of 1 game alone, even if that game has been released, because there is a probability that you might not like the game even if someone else likes it and if your videocard is slower in the other 99% of games, then you have just wasted $$$. As such, first always buy a videogame, play it and then decide if upgrading is worth it for the settings, resolutions you intend to play at (and if the gameplay is worth upgrading for that 1 game alone)

 

[Genx87]

Yeah, he was totally off on those 5900/9800 numbers from shader day, it's not like the FX's still get beat with the beta benchmarks on ixbt, he was completely wrong, and those numbers he talked about concerning 6800's a year before they came out, sheesh what was he thinking

he was probably referring to old Gabe telling everybody through his marketing blitz the game will sell and they should get 9600s and 9800s to play it. This about 10 days before release and well after they had to know it wasnt going to be even close to release.

Also through testimonials from Valve they apparently only had a chance to work on shaders for the 5900 for roughly 2 months before shader days.

Hmm. It says "ATI x800 was the card of choice amongst many of the testers, as it ran roughly about 30% faster than Nvidia's best cards".

Or it could mean what it meant last year at about this time.

"The game is due for release but we are not rdy. Go ahead and buy a new ATI based on our recomendations anyways. Trust us again"

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
i dont trust gabe as far as i can throw him after he screwed me last year

Heh, that's not very far! :Q

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Genx87
he was probably referring to old Gabe telling everybody through his marketing blitz the game will sell and they should get 9600s and 9800s to play it. This about 10 days before release and well after they had to know it wasnt going to be even close to release.

I've heard this a lot. Was the game SERIOUSLY not going to be released? I thought the delay occurred because the code was ripped off and they wanted to implement enough changes so as to render the stolen copy useless; and in the process sweeten it up a tad.

 

[Pete]

"Only" two months? How long do you think they'd need to optimize their shaders, half a year? Just as no amount of optimizing will get D3 to run as fast on ATi hardware, so the FX series will lag in HL2. I'm not sure you can blame the devs for picking the h/w that best suits their engine.

I think this quote is old. I'm pretty sure I heard it a while ago, though maybe that specific "30%" bit is new. While I'm sure Valve would feel obligated to suck up to ATi if ATi didn't know HL2 would be so severely delayed, Valve can't expect to get away with quoting BS numbers. I don't think we'll see a "30%" speed difference disappear with new drivers.

And let's not forget that not only is Doom 3 out now, but it seems to have more of a future as an engine than Half-Life 2 does (Return to Castle Wolfenstein 2 and Quake 4 are already being worked on using the Doom 3 engine, and I for one am psyched to hear that).
Well, there's at least one game already in development with the Source engine, so I don't think the D3 engine is automatically the winner of the licensing wars with a 2:1 ratio, especially considering how many more engines there are available for licensing nowadays.

Half life 2 will be a great game, but engine wise, its already outdated. Doom3 style rendering IS the future.
If you mean shadows, yes. If you mean stencil shadows, not so much, as far as I understand. I could be mistaken, though.

 

[Fern]

Back to the point the OP is trying to make- I agree, this is getting riduculous. It appears to me that they are unneccessarily fragmenting the market with such optimizations. Yes, if taken to extremes, we will need two cards, or just forget about one game or the other. Nonsence

 

[FluxCap]

This is all timing on Valve's + ATI's part. What better way to stop people who are on the fence of which card to get than releasing this BS statement? They timed it perfectly with the Doom 3 release for a reason.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Rollo
The screenshot in that article looked like a$$ compared to D3?

Oh well, the original HL based on the Q1 engine in Q3 times wasn't exactly the cutting edge of graphics either, but people loved the game.

Personally, I care a lot more about Doom3 and Quake 4 than I do HL2.

hmm... after the initial "pretty cool gfx...", i'm finding it's a bit repetitive and i'm rather bored. so far i found the early part of farcry much more interesting. maybe it'll get better later?

q4? is there such a thing? multiplayer has always been where i've loved id's games...

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: FluxCap
This is all timing on Valve's + ATI's part. What better way to stop people who are on the fence of which card to get than releasing this BS statement? They timed it perfectly with the Doom 3 release for a reason.

honestly, i don't think they really needed that.. doom is a decent game, and certain to be a blockbuster as far as sales go, but it's hardly "game of the year" material - as always the case with id soft., technology-wise it's very solid.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Schadenfroh's situation is exactly why people should be bent with Gabe&Co.

As to the performance variance, it is exactly what I anticipate, and it's irrelevant beyond marketing concerns and fanboi pride :roll: as I believe the mid-high end 6800series will still provide a good gaming experience in HL2, just as the mid-high end X800 series does in D3.

 

[Genx87]

I've heard this a lot. Was the game SERIOUSLY not going to be released? I thought the delay occurred because the code was ripped off and they wanted to implement enough changes so as to render the stolen copy useless; and in the process sweeten it up a tad.

Well apparently the code that was stolen was the whole thing. People say there was no way in hell it could have been released on the 30th of Sept.

"Only" two months? How long do you think they'd need to optimize their shaders, half a year? Just as no amount of optimizing will get D3 to run as fast on ATi hardware, so the FX series will lag in HL2. I'm not sure you can blame the devs for picking the h/w that best suits their engine.

I would imagine in a game that has taken roughly 3 years to develop. Dedicating less than 2 months to optimizing paths for a GPU is not enough.

As for blaming the devs. I dont blame them at all. Those ATI marketing dollars probably bought them a new car

honestly, i don't think they really needed that.. doom is a decent game, and certain to be a blockbuster as far as sales go, but it's hardly "game of the year" material - as always the case with id soft., technology-wise it's very solid.

I dont have the game but will shortly. But if you compare sales of HL2 and Doom3. I wonder who will win?

 

[FluxCap]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: FluxCap
This is all timing on Valve's + ATI's part. What better way to stop people who are on the fence of which card to get than releasing this BS statement? They timed it perfectly with the Doom 3 release for a reason.

honestly, i don't think they really needed that.. doom is a decent game, and certain to be a blockbuster as far as sales go, but it's hardly "game of the year" material - as always the case with id soft., technology-wise it's very solid.

I think they needed it just a little because when the Doom 3 benchmarks came out it was a little stain on ATI's record and they didn't like it(which was obvious by all the statements and promises they were making). I don't want to convey a fanboy attitude so don't get me wrong, it is just an opinion. I am happy with my 6800GT and I am happy with Doom 3 (somewhat) but if the numbers held true and the x800 Pro was 30% than the 6800GT in HL2 (for example) then you would have a lot of pissed off people. I will probably be playing HL2 and it's mods for the next 3 years so if Nvidia does indeed get owned I will sell my GT and get the XTPE. I hope it doesn't come to that but I want the fastest card for the money, as always.

 

[JBT]

I HIGHLY doubt that HL2 will be 30% faster on ATI cards. It may be faster but I doubt we'll see it 30% faster... My 6800 GT plays the leaked verision MUCH better than my old 9500 Pro did.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Well apparently the code that was stolen was the whole thing. People say there was no way in hell it could have been released on the 30th of Sept.

Actually they admitted it wasn't ready and that the theft only exacerbated matters.

I would imagine in a game that has taken roughly 3 years to develop. Dedicating less than 2 months to optimizing paths for a GPU is not enough.

Where did that time frame come from? I have never heard that before.

As for blaming the devs. I dont blame them at all. Those ATI marketing dollars probably bought them a new car

More importantly, it provided a much needed infusion of capital to continue game development as they were running low on funds as I understand it.

I dont have the game but will shortly. But if you compare sales of HL2 and Doom3. I wonder who will win?

My money is on HL2+mods. My reasoning is that the gameplay, particularly the degree of interaction with the enviroment possible, will make this title and it's spin-offs unmatched for both single&multi-player. We will have the same bashers D3 has, most of whom are the rival GPU makers overzealous minions displeased with their products performance in the title and spouting FUD and propaganda in an effort to undermine the games success=sad but true.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

I HIGHLY doubt that HL2 will be 30% faster on ATI cards. It may be faster but I doubt we'll see it 30% faster

It's possible. The XT has a very large lead in Farcry under the SM2 rendering paths. I can't see the x800 Pro being faster than the GT by 30% though.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2113&p=7
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2102&p=5

I would imagine in a game that has taken roughly 3 years to develop. Dedicating less than 2 months to optimizing paths for a GPU is not enough.

If they spent 2 months optimizing every series of GPU the game would never get finished.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: FluxCap

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: FluxCap
This is all timing on Valve's + ATI's part. What better way to stop people who are on the fence of which card to get than releasing this BS statement? They timed it perfectly with the Doom 3 release for a reason.

honestly, i don't think they really needed that.. doom is a decent game, and certain to be a blockbuster as far as sales go, but it's hardly "game of the year" material - as always the case with id soft., technology-wise it's very solid.

I think they needed it just a little because when the Doom 3 benchmarks came out it was a little stain on ATI's record and they didn't like it(which was obvious by all the statements and promises they were making). I don't want to convey a fanboy attitude so don't get me wrong, it is just an opinion. I am happy with my 6800GT and I am happy with Doom 3 (somewhat) but if the numbers held true and the x800 Pro was 30% than the 6800GT in HL2 (for example) then you would have a lot of pissed off people. I will probably be playing HL2 and it's mods for the next 3 years so if Nvidia does indeed get owned I will sell my GT and get the XTPE. I hope it doesn't come to that but I want the fastest card for the money, as always.

i bet in a month or two performance of both cards in both games will be pretty close to each other. even if it takes custom shaders and/or specific optimizations, you can bet nvidia will increase hl2 performance (assuming it is currently behind as implied), just as i'm sure you will see doom3 perf increase on ati - where nv will still have an edge since many of nv's features were put in place specifically at carmack's request/suggestions.

when the dust settles things will be pretty equal, and i honestly don't think either side will have alot to biatch about as either card will perform quite acceptably. the only one's griping will be those fanbois who place more improtance on benchmarks than gameplay

 

[FluxCap]

All I want is for HL2 to run at 16x12, full graphic options, 4AA+8AF at 50fps or higher on my system. Give me that and I don't care how much faster other cards are.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

All I want is for HL2 to run at 16x12, full graphic options, 4AA+8AF at 50fps or higher on my system.

That's a bit much to ask. The GT doesn't even run Farcry and Doom 3 that well. .

 

[Draco]

no way current ati hardware is 30% faster then NVidia's 6800 line. Yes, this may have been true when we were comparing 9800PRo's and Nvidia 5900's, but not now. If this turns out to be the case when Half Life 2 ships (whenever that may be), I would highly question Valve/ATI's relationship and their motives.

 

[FluxCap]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

All I want is for HL2 to run at 16x12, full graphic options, 4AA+8AF at 50fps or higher on my system.

That's a bit much to ask. The GT doesn't even run Farcry and Doom 3 that well. .

Drop it to 2AA and it should be easy then. I can get Doom 3 to run that number without VSYNC.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Draco
no way current ati hardware is 30% faster then NVidia's 6800 line. Yes, this may have been true when we were comparing 9800PRo's and Nvidia 5900's, but not now. If this turns out to be the case when Half Life 2 ships (whenever that may be), I would highly question Valve/ATI's relationship and their motives.

You are questioning id&nVs' then correct?

 

[Draco]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Draco
no way current ati hardware is 30% faster then NVidia's 6800 line. Yes, this may have been true when we were comparing 9800PRo's and Nvidia 5900's, but not now. If this turns out to be the case when Half Life 2 ships (whenever that may be), I would highly question Valve/ATI's relationship and their motives.

You are questioning id&nVs' then correct?

Yes, they are all shady!