Internationally Confirmed: NK Torpedo sank the SK Navy ship.

[Lemon law]

Its now impossible to not conclude North Korea is the aggressor and the exploded remains of a NK torpedo is the smoking gun.

But still, what good with international sanction do, when the brunt of that damage will fall on the already starving North Korean people? Even as a Liberal, I could somewhat advocate torturing Kim Jong Il or someone like Saddam Hussain slowly and as painfully
as possible, but I can't quite find it in my heart to hate the hapless North Korean people who are victims of extremely bad leadership.

And that is why I somewhat applaud working diplomatically with China, to find some way to force the non-violent removal of Kim Jong Il. The other thing to note, is that the angel of natural causes death is about to reap Kim's sad and sorry ass anyway. And maybe his successor will be more amenable to what is really the ideal solution, to have the economically prosperous South Korea take over the economic basket case North Korea in much the same way West Germany reunited with East Germany after the cold war ended. And if China is able to get trade and technology deals with South Korea in the process, it would be a win win win all around.

In short, the hot heads always think war and revenge, but if we think the proper way, its possible to find that silver lining that may lie in the dark storm cloud. The 46 dead in S. Korean ship are already expended lives, but if we were able to ask them, would they choose war and revenge or would they prefer to see peace and Korean reunification as their final legacy.

 

[Bateluer]

how far do you let NK go? They sink warships. What if they fire just one little piece of artillery into the Seoul.. what then? What about 10 pieces? Etc etc.

Kinda like Israel takes the rpgs from Hezbollah and Hamas and the international community chastises the Israeli's for defending themselves?

 

[Genx87]

Just FYI... NK has almost twice the total number of troops (active, inactive, paramilitary) that we do.. and less than 3 million shy of China. Just by the sheer number of people they have available to "expend", any military action against them will be difficult if we expect a clear victory.

# of troops has been negated by combined arms firepower since WWII. Iraq had 1-1.5 million combat troops and we decimated them twice with a force of 650K and 200K in two wars.

And gauging by the size of NK's economy, level of technology, and most likely well outdated soviet style tactics. I wouldnt expect those troops to put up a fight like one would expect. I even doubt their feared artillery is in working order due to lack of funds.

edit:well I should have read further down the page.

 

[Jaskalas]

In short, the hot heads always think war and revenge, but if we think the proper way, its possible to find that silver lining that may lie in the dark storm cloud. The 46 dead in S. Korean ship are already expended lives, but if we were able to ask them, would they choose war and revenge or would they prefer to see peace and Korean reunification as their final legacy.

It is absolutely abhorrent that your response to an act of war is to bow down.

*edited for the post below

 

[zsdersw]

edit:well I should have read further down the page.

Indeed.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm curious Lemon.

If it was America's act of war - would you be telling the victims to throw down their lives in the name of peace? After all one act of war would not lead to another if they all simply keeled over dead at our slightest whim. In fact, based on your idea they should be PROUD to die in the name of peace!

Or is it only the west and our allies who you think should keel over dead?

 

[ProfJohn]

In short, the hot heads always think war and revenge, but if we think the proper way, its possible to find that silver lining that may lie in the dark storm cloud. The 46 dead in S. Korean ship are already expended lives, but if we were able to ask them, would they choose war and revenge or would they prefer to see peace and Korean reunification as their final legacy.

Are you really that stupid??

Hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent South Koreans and Japanese have been killed by the north since the end of the war and we are no closer to reunification today than we were in the 1950s.

It is very likely that the sinking of this ship was ordered by Kim himself as a way to help ensure that his son takes over control of the government after his death. To Kim everyone else in the world is just a pawn to be used/killed at will in order to ensure that he keeps his power.

 

[Lemon law]

I'm curious Lemon.

If it was America's act of war - would you be telling the victims to throw down their lives in the name of peace? After all one act of war would not lead to another if they all simply keeled over dead at our slightest whim. In fact, based on your idea they should be PROUD to die in the name of peace!

Or is it only the west and our allies who you think should keel over dead?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am somewhat baffled on how to respond, but no I am not a believer in my country right or wrong. But feel free to mis-interpret my post and not answer the questions I asked.

But still we must view the root problem, a Turd of a North Korean Government protected by a super power China. And the goal of removing that horrible North Korean Government is perhaps something we can all agree on. And now we have a very good wedge issue to get even China to agree that this particular North Korean Government has got to go, and without the protection of China, that North Korean government might well collapse non violently collapse like a house of cards. That is the goal., and not a war where 460,000 or more good lives will be pissed away to redeem 46 already expended lives.

 

[maddogchen]

Most of the NK artillery would have to be moved south across the DMZ to get range on Seoul. Only their big 203mm guns and the BM-27 rocket launchers can reach the capital from their side of the border and then just into the northern areas of the city. The North Koreans could do a lot of damage but Seoul wouldn't be destroyed as some claim.

Thats strange...thats contrary to every news article i've read about the korean conflict. They all say that Seoul is within easy range of NK artillery.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Its now impossible to not conclude North Korea is the aggressor and the exploded remains of a NK torpedo is the smoking gun.

But still, what good with international sanction do, when the brunt of that damage will fall on the already starving North Korean people? Even as a Liberal, I could somewhat advocate torturing Kim Jong Il or someone like Saddam Hussain slowly and as painfully
as possible, but I can't quite find it in my heart to hate the hapless North Korean people who are victims of extremely bad leadership.

And that is why I somewhat applaud working diplomatically with China, to find some way to force the non-violent removal of Kim Jong Il. The other thing to note, is that the angel of natural causes death is about to reap Kim's sad and sorry ass anyway. And maybe his successor will be more amenable to what is really the ideal solution, to have the economically prosperous South Korea take over the economic basket case North Korea in much the same way West Germany reunited with East Germany after the cold war ended. And if China is able to get trade and technology deals with South Korea in the process, it would be a win win win all around.

In short, the hot heads always think war and revenge, but if we think the proper way, its possible to find that silver lining that may lie in the dark storm cloud. The 46 dead in S. Korean ship are already expended lives, but if we were able to ask them, would they choose war and revenge or would they prefer to see peace and Korean reunification as their final legacy.

Maybe Obama could ride a unicorn to the DMZ and shit rainbows and puppies and everyone will throw down their arms and come together in a big unified hug? I think thats about as likely as your scenario.

 

[NesuD]

It's a blatant act of war and should be responded to as such. NK needs to do some fast talking and apologizing including significant reparations to the SK government and the families of those who lost their lives. If that is not immediately forthcoming then retaliation in the form of "sink one of ours sink one of theirs" the largest target conveniently available.

That is how it is done.

The U.S should completely support a retaliatory strike if it NK does not immediately take responsibility and make amends. Doubtful we will though. We have an administration full of cowards and indecisive fools so they will just talk and NK will get away with it.

 

[K1052]

Thats strange...thats contrary to every news article i've read about the korean conflict. They all say that Seoul is within easy range of NK artillery.

The 170mm gun that makes up the bulk of their heavy artillery doesn't have sufficient range to threaten the vast majority of Seoul. The smattering of 203mm guns and the probably numerous rocket launchers are the real items of concern.

Now if the NKs wanted to get really nasty they could use shells with nerve agent or gas and try to kill everyone in Seoul but that would probably trigger a strategic nuclear response against Pyongyang.

 

[Jaskalas]

That is the goal., and not a war where 460,000 or more good lives will be pissed away to redeem 46 already expended lives.

I'm not following along with how that goal is achieved absent of war.

You must understand that your posts before make it sound like a null response to their act of war.

 

[EagleKeeper]

People do not want to increase the military tension; so that leaves economic pressure (which can easily be picked up by the Chinese over time) or covert pressure.

Much depends on what the Chinese want to do with this stepchild that keeps throwing tantrums and making a mess of the house.

 

[Kirby]

It's a blatant act of war and should be responded to as such. NK needs to do some fast talking and apologizing including significant reparations to the SK government and the families of those who lost their lives. If that is not immediately forthcoming then retaliation in the form of "sink one of ours sink one of theirs" the largest target conveniently available.

That is how it is done.

The U.S should completely support a retaliatory strike if it NK does not immediately take responsibility and make amends. Doubtful we will though. We have an administration full of cowards and indecisive fools so they will just talk and NK will get away with it.

1.) They're already at war.
2.) It's easy to talk tough when you're safe, 6000 miles away.

Obama needs to support SK and whatever decision they make. It's their lives at risk, not ours.

 

[DietDrThunder]

It's time to destroy North Korea. They really don't do anything but stir up trouble and piss off other, more powerful nations. The entire country is filled with brainwashed fools anyway, so it would make little sense to "liberate" them. It's better to just erase them all from existence, and let South Korea have the land. Everyone knows this.

We don't need to destroy North Korea. All we have to do is fire multiple cruize missles and destroy North Korea's illegal United States currency counterfitting equipment (they print is as well as we do). Then keep bombing it every time they start to rebuild it. That should destroy their economy enough to allow North Korea to collapse.

 

[tk149]

1. Kim is gonna die. Hopefully soon.

2. Kim doesn't give a rat's butt about his own people.

3. Kim's people are already starving.

4. Kim is smart enough to know that the world does not want to punish the North Korean people. Short of assassination, there really is no way to punish Kim without punishing his people.

5. Every world leader knows the above.

Nobody (sane) wants an accelerated armed conflict. Kim knows that he would eventually lose. Everybody else knows that South Korea would get pounded bad.

That leaves trade embargoes. As long as China has more to gain by trading with NK than it loses, China doesn't really care about SK's ship and sailors.

Sadly, I don't think that any action would overall profit the world short of Kim's assassination. Unless oil is discovered in NK, I don't think anyone cares enough about NK to do it. And Kim knows this.

I think the real problems will occur when Kim decides to go out with a bang. I seem to recall that he has numerous sons, but does he care about them?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Kim has two issues.

1) His Legacy - standing up to the evil West
2) His face

Only if his lifestyle is affected will he give a dam. As others have stated; escalating the conflict into an armed response is not to the benefit of SK. An embargo (tightened) will only hurt the NK population more. Should some NK vessels (military or commercial) not make it to port; that will get his attentions.

 

[OCGuy]

Every American male aged 18-26 should keep an eye on this.

 

[Lemon law]

I somewhat disagree because, IMHO, its China that is the key. Convince China that the existing North Korean government has got to go, and Kim Jong Il as the N. Korean leader will be odd man out as he pees his pants. It is China that props up Kim, and if Kim outlives his usefulness to China, they can just summon Kim, tell him to abdicate, give him a nice safe retirement, let his Sonny boy take over as China reads the riot act to Sonny boy. It could really be a win for China if China plays their cards correctly. The last thing China needs now is a loose Canon right on their border. As for the North Korean people, they would be giant winners, especially if they can get some sort of Marshall plan type aid from Asia, America, and the West.

As for the actual new form of the North Korean Government, that is a joker in the deck, but Sonny boy could also go down as a giant winner also, as the savior of his people.

But of course there are always total skeptics who say I am shitting puppies and rainbows, but who says miracles do not happen? Who would have ever thunk it,
East Germany peacefully reunited with West Germany, Irish terrorism eliminated after a 400 year run, South Africa apartheid banished by a prison inmate, and a little
guy with nothing but a loin cloth and a hand held spinning wheel ending British colonialism in India.

 

[JSt0rm]

Every American male aged 18-26 should keep an eye on this.

Unless they are rich and in college

Brown and poor? You will die.

 

[PricklyPete]

I somewhat disagree because, IMHO, its China that is the key. Convince China that the existing North Korean government has got to go, and Kim Jong Il as the N. Korean leader will be odd man out as he pees his pants. It is China that props up Kim, and if Kim outlives his usefulness to China, they can just summon Kim, tell him to abdicate, give him a nice safe retirement, let his Sonny boy take over as China reads the riot act to Sonny boy. It could really be a win for China if China plays their cards correctly. The last thing China needs now is a loose Canon right on their border. As for the North Korean people, they would be giant winners, especially if they can get some sort of Marshall plan type aid from Asia, America, and the West.

As for the actual new form of the North Korean Government, that is a joker in the deck, but Sonny boy could also go down as a giant winner also, as the savior of his people.

I don't really see how China gets any benefit from NK at all. Hopefully China will come to the same conclusion after assessing this situation and will join the UN in sanctioning NK.

 

[Patranus]

Unless they are rich and in college

Brown and poor? You will die.

More white people have idea in Iraq than all of the minorities killed in Iraq combined.

U.S. Troop Casualties - 4,397 US troops; 98% male. 91% non-officers; 82% active duty, 11% National Guard; 74% Caucasian, 9% African-American, 11% Latino. 19% killed by non-hostile causes. 54% of US casualties were under 25 years old. 72% were from the US Army

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm


Ooops.

 

[OCGuy]

Unless they are rich and in college

Brown and poor? You will die.

Much about the Selective Service has changed since 'nam. It does not exactly work like that any more.

I think you get to finish out your current semester at school now, but thats it.

 

[ayabe]

Much about the Selective Service has changed since 'nam. It does not exactly work like that any more.

I think you get to finish out your current semester at school now, but thats it.

Won't happen guys, we're not going to war and instituting a draft to protect SK, 0% chance. China won't be lending us money to kill their three-legged dog.

Hitchens wrote a piece today on this whole deal, it's well worth the time and has a plausible explanation on why we can't do anything right now, mainly because we don't want to provoke even worse behavior.

http://www.slate.com/id/2254826/