Internationally Confirmed: NK Torpedo sank the SK Navy ship.

[manowar821]

How is this our problem? Oh yeah, police of the world, and all that bullshit.

Sorry I asked.

 

[OCGuy]

How is this our problem? Oh yeah, police of the world, and all that bullshit.

Sorry I asked.

International law. We have a treaty. Education is your friend.

 

[spacejamz]

International law. We have a treaty. Education is your friend.

We don't even follow our own federal laws on illegal immigration...why should we even bother with international law....

 

[K1052]

When the guns are out in the open; then they are easy to attack.

As the Allies discovered; Naval guns at Malta and along the Channel/North Sea coast were entirely different. Because those guns could be pulled back into caves that were protected by cliffs; bombing could not destroy them. Because of the cliffs; it was very difficult to try to seal off the cave mouth.

The same situation exists in NK. They either built caves into cliffs or they expanded caves. They have tunnels with multiple exits. Knowing that the caves could be targeted; they are re-enforced and also designed to be difficult to get a direct line of sight from airborne ordnance.

One can not target 1000 locations within a single strike. And our doctrine will not allow for a preemptive strike as it is. So every gun will get at least one shell on the way to Seoul before anything is returned.

That was well before the advent of precision bombing and modern penetrating munitions/thermobarics.

The guns are less important also than the mobile rocket launchers, it would probably turn into a rocket duel for the most part as the NKs fire and SKs do counter battery work with cluster bombs. Given that it is very unlikely that NK could establish air superiority over the DMZ their fixed and mobile weaponry in the area would be at even greater risk shortly after the outbreak of hostilities.

 

[Genx87]

We had around 500k troops in Iraq during the Gulf and still had overwhelming force the second time around. If it comes down to it we'll have to count on the SK military, which is perfectly fine IMO. They know what they're doing, just saying our guys on the ground won't be much of a deciding factor.

Any advance northward also brings the troops into range of shitloads of dug-in artillery. Add the fact that the NK military is arguably as brainwashed as its populace (wasn't an issue in Iraq), yeah completely different tactical situation.

The Republican guard units were as fanatical as they get and our regular units ran right over them when they engaged us. I would think Saddams armies were better equipped and better trained than NK's due to a more robust oil based economy.

Unless it gets nuclear I dont see how NK will kill 10,000 US troops in 48 hours.

/shrug

 

[Genx87]

NK has the higest concentration of artillery in the world and over 1 million men ready at the DMZ.

Seoul would be flattened.

How combat operational are they though? My understanding is a lot of their arty cant even make it to seoul and the units that can have to be moved to the front which opens them up to air attack. And then we dont know how many of the guns are actually functional.

The 1 million men could be a problem or it could be a blood bath for NKs military. It depends on how competent and qualified their training, equipment, and command structure is. I suspect knowing the size of the economy, the state of their food supply, and their Soviet influences. They probably are using 1950-60s gear with 1940s tactics.

 

[EagleKeeper]

When the guns are out in the open; then they are easy to attack.

As the Allies discovered; Naval guns at Malta and along the Channel/North Sea coast were entirely different. Because those guns could be pulled back into caves that were protected by cliffs; bombing could not destroy them. Because of the cliffs; it was very difficult to try to seal off the cave mouth.

The same situation exists in NK. They either built caves into cliffs or they expanded caves. They have tunnels with multiple exits. Knowing that the caves could be targeted; they are re-enforced and also designed to be difficult to get a direct line of sight from airborne ordnance.

One can not target 1000 locations within a single strike. And our doctrine will not allow for a preemptive strike as it is. So every gun will get at least one shell on the way to Seoul before anything is returned.

That was well before the advent of precision bombing and modern penetrating munitions/thermobarics.

The guns are less important also than the mobile rocket launchers, it would probably turn into a rocket duel for the most part as the NKs fire and SKs do counter battery work with cluster bombs. Given that it is very unlikely that NK could establish air superiority over the DMZ their fixed and mobile weaponry in the area would be at even greater risk shortly after the outbreak of hostilities.

Precision bombing entails air superiority and no AA challenges.

Aircraft only carry a dozen or so smart munitions for each sortie.

You can not carpet bomb with precision munitions.

These lessons have been learned going after the Taliban/AQ in Afganistan.

 

[ayabe]

Saddam's military was decimated by the first gulf war and the ensuing sanctions kept it from rebuilding. The Iraqi military was a complete joke in 2003 compared to 1991.

NK hasn't had these restrictions and have most of the latest and greatest Chinese hardware. While I don't think they'd wipe the floor with us, a million north koreans pouring over the border would certainly put us in a serious bind and more than likely those 10,000 marines/soldiers would be surrounded and annihilated in short order.

But we didn't sign the landmine ban specifically because of the absurd mine fields we have established in the DMZ, so that would buy us some time.

Edit - We would also have to fight for air superiority and we'd be losing a lot of planes to SAM's.

 

[Genx87]

Saddam's military was decimated by the first gulf war and the ensuing sanctions kept it from rebuilding. The Iraqi military was a complete joke in 2003 compared to 1991.

NK hasn't had these restrictions and have most of the latest and greatest Chinese hardware. While I don't think they'd wipe the floor with us, a million north koreans pouring over the border would certainly put us in a serious bind and more than likely those 10,000 marines/soldiers would be surrounded and annihilated in short order.

But we didn't sign the landmine ban specifically because of the absurd mine fields we have established in the DMZ, so that would buy us some time.

Edit - We would also have to fight for air superiority and we'd be losing a lot of planes to SAM's.

Iraqi airspace was one of the most heavily defended airspace since Berlin. Did we lose lots of planes or did we destroy their capability to defend themselves? NK has a problem of having no economy to back war.

The 1 million men pouring over the border would be an interesting case of human wave vs 21st century weapons and tactics. While they might push us back. I suspect once the noose is put around their neck by air superiorty and cutting off their supply lines. It could get ugly once their supplies run out.

Are the chinese simply giving them this equipement? According to the cia factbook the NK economy is about 30-40 Billion GDP. How much equipment can an economy buy with that little output? Even if they were able to divert a full 30-40% of their economy towards the military. They have to fund 1 million+ men + rations + ammunition and weapon systems on 10-15 billion dollars? Our military farts that much out in a month over in Iraq.

 

[K1052]

Precision bombing entails air superiority and no AA challenges.

Aircraft only carry a dozen or so smart munitions for each sortie.

You can not carpet bomb with precision munitions.

These lessons have been learned going after the Taliban/AQ in Afganistan.

It's not all that challenging to deploy GPS guided weapons against fixed gun positions.

The mobile rocket launchers present the larger problem and would require prompt counter battery fire from MLRS to catch them before they can move/reload, probably in the form of cluster bombs.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's not all that challenging to deploy GPS guided weapons against fixed gun positions.

The mobile rocket launchers present the larger problem and would require prompt counter battery fire from MLRS to catch them before they can move/reload, probably in the form of cluster bombs.

I would think that F-22s and F-15s could quickly gain air superiority over the DMZ, once that happens any truck that tries to move along the boarder should be pretty vulnerable, right?

 

[irishScott]

The Republican guard units were as fanatical as they get and our regular units ran right over them when they engaged us. I would think Saddams armies were better equipped and better trained than NK's due to a more robust oil based economy.

Unless it gets nuclear I dont see how NK will kill 10,000 US troops in 48 hours.

/shrug

Granted, but the terrain is also much less even in NK. The main reason we rocked Iraq was a nice flat desert and air superiority. By comparison, look how much trouble irregular insurgents are giving us in Afghanistan.

 

[Trianon]

Wow, looks like the whole Pentagon is on AT P&N today

 

[irishScott]

Wow, looks like the whole Pentagon is on AT P&N today

Damn right. If AT P&N were in charge we'd win the war in a week. Nuking from orbit would probably be involved.

 

[JSt0rm]

Wow, looks like the whole Pentagon is on AT P&N today

lmao. I was thinking the same thing hahahaha

 

[EagleKeeper]

It's not all that challenging to deploy GPS guided weapons against fixed gun positions.

The mobile rocket launchers present the larger problem and would require prompt counter battery fire from MLRS to catch them before they can move/reload, probably in the form of cluster bombs.

The gun positions are not fixed. They are on rails/wheels/tracks that allow them within a minute to be pulled back DEEP into a mountain.

GPS guided munitions are for vertical targets. When the guns are inside; you have to come in horizontally against blast doors. One can not fly an aircraft through a canyon and attempt to lob a 500 bomb against a blast door. No accuracy.
One may try to collapse the entrance; even if accomplished; they move the gun a few hundred yards down the tunnel to the next opening.

North Korea has had 50 years of planning & engineering. They are not interested in taking over South Korea. They want to ensure that South Korea does not try to take over North Korea. They have made extensive use of Russian and China technology w/ respect to artillery placement.

The US technology is great when countering an army. The same technology has been shown to be fairly ineffective against people buried in mountainous areas. And that is what most of NK is - especially the high value targets.

 

[Key West]

Enough discussing, here are some developing news straight from a Korean website (in English):

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/120_66513.html

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/116_66490.html

 

[Aegeon]

NK hasn't had these restrictions and have most of the latest and greatest Chinese hardware. While I don't think they'd wipe the floor with us, a million north koreans pouring over the border would certainly put us in a serious bind and more than likely those 10,000 marines/soldiers would be surrounded and annihilated in short order...

Edit - We would also have to fight for air superiority and we'd be losing a lot of planes to SAM's.

You're grossly overestimating North Korea's military equipment.

Saddam actually had superior equipment in most respects to what North Korea has right now.

As I noted in the other thread, while South Korea has modern and capable K1 and K1A1 tanks, while the North Korean tanks are basically exclusively T-55s and T-62 tanks or even worse. (The Soviet model North Korean tanks have that model number because that is the year they first entered service.) The North Korean equipment is in general very obsolete and certainly not the latest and best Chinese equipment.

North Korea's SAM and air Defense Network basically has the exact same equipment it had in 1991. In fact, North Korea's SAM network is in key ways inferior to what Saddam ever had, with North Korea apparently keeping the SA-1 Guild SAM in service even though no-one else is still using this obsolete system first deployed in 1954. They also are still using the SA-2 first deployed in 1957, and have nothing more modern or capable like the SA-300 or SA-400 which the US or South Korean Air forces would really have to worry about. The issue is North Korea is essentially flat out broke and spent what money it did have on developing its nukes, the rest of the money goes to maintaining its military rather than buying new equipment, with no-one willing to give anything away to them since the end of the Cold War.

While its possible to become too casual about the potential consequences of such a war, its also possible to given North Korea way too much credit given some of their equipment literally belong in a museum.

 

[cyclohexane]

How is this our problem? Oh yeah, police of the world, and all that bullshit.

Sorry I asked.

I feel the same way. If NK and SK want to fuck each other, let them. Not our problem.

 

[Noobtastic]

Iraqi airspace was one of the most heavily defended airspace since Berlin. Did we lose lots of planes or did we destroy their capability to defend themselves

our success in iraq was predicated on israel's tactics used to demolish syrian's AA battery during mole cricket 19.

at the time syria had the most advanced and capable AA technology in the world, but it was annihilated by the IAF through blitz-styled movements and surface-to-air missiles.

USAAF basically lifted the word-for-word playbook on the beqqa valley operation in the gulf war air campaign where our jets killed about 15,000 iraqis, including 3,500 civilians in a period of 5 days.

the destruction of their AA systems was made possible because of the centralized iraqi military and saddam's stupiditity to put his best and most powerful AA in the heart of Baghdad (thinking the civilian population might deter attack, boy was he fuckin wrong).

north korea is an entirely different issue. the whole country is military. AA is spread out throughout the land. WITHOUT a preemptive strike, north korea will inflict serious damage on SK and US bases.

obviously the north will lose, but usa is not gonna walk out with bruises and scratches.

americans don't understand the vulneriability of being in close proximity to an enemy.

we are used to bombing countries thousands of miles away, away from our cities and homes.

but there are 30,000+ troops in south korea, less than 100 miles away from north korea.