Invading Somalia

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If we were like the Nazi's or the Soviets it might not be so bad for us but since we go out of our way to avoid civilians casualties it's not a doable scenario

:thumbsup: impossible to do. Somalia is pig-fucked.

Of course, we could always send in the UN..... :BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA...


(sorry, I literally wet myself laughing after typing that)

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Helping Somalia get out of the poverty that drives piracy: would you agree to that?

Funny how the only option on the table for problems is invading.

and of course this is the real problem, and it certainly isn't any easier to address.

Send whatever aid you want, a healthy percentage of it will be confiscated and re-distributed among the warlords and the upper classes, spent on massive boondoggles.

The first problem to address--that can be addressed--is Malaria. Modern Singapore is a very good example of what that type of impoverished, post-colonial despotic state can do once it eradicates the malaria problem, provided the infrastructure, and will to succeed, is endemic.

 

[piasabird]

You dont have to invade Somalia. It might make more sense to move some military ships into the area and just set up a blockade. No ships in and no ships out.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: piasabird
You dont have to invade Somalia. It might make more sense to move some military ships into the area and just set up a blockade. No ships in and no ships out.

Except the coastline of Somalia is huge and you wouldn't be able to blockade it.

Also, hunting down and finding the pirates will be close to impossible. They don't wear pirate hats and say 'ar'.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Genx87
We cant fix Somalia. Only Somalians can fix it.

Disagree. Somalians can't fix a damn thing let alone their country. Someday, someone will need to go in and completely clean house, basically becoming a ward of an international coalition until it can get on its feet. I do not see this happening anytime soon.

My opinion is just deal with the piracy by the lawful use of force. It's not in our national interest to get involved in that shithole.

 

[BoberFett]

Absolutely not.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: OCguy

Africa always has been and always will be a third-world shithole.

Africa is a European problem. They were the colonists that fvcked everything up. They should fix it.

His idiocy permeates through when he makes such stupid blanket statements like that.

IMO I don't trust 'Europe' to fix anything either. They were the ones who colonized everything, and then tried to hold onto those colonies even after WW2. I don't even trust neighboring nations like Ethiopia who are looking out for their own interests more than caring for any true stability in Somalia.

Originally posted by: Genx87
We cant fix Somalia. Only Somalians can fix it.

QFMFT. Genx87 said it right - Somalia is a Somali problem. Let them resolve it. Interference only creates problems. Even if we had the best of intentions, things will go awry. Invading other people's lands is NOT a good tactic.

The only thing I WOULD be in favor of is, provided CAREFUL established guidelines are drawn, is to prevent interventions of other nations into Somali affairs. At least we can be passive about that, we don't have to put troops on the ground (multiple carriers/battle ships with jets should be enough to scare away any neighboring country), we don't have to commit to anything, and we don't care about what goes on beyond letting Somalis sort their affairs. Of course, in the end I'd probably be opposed because it would be used as a pretext to get involved intimately.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: OCguy

Africa always has been and always will be a third-world shithole.

Africa is a European problem. They were the colonists that fvcked everything up. They should fix it.

yup. colonialism is what fucked up modern day africa. The indigenous people had adapted quite well to life in Africa, and thrived on farming both plants and livestock, with structured societies, just as the Europeans had by the time they arrived to "conquer" the continent.

colonialism had worked for them so well in the New world (mostly very similar sub-equatorial climates), so they figured Africa would be no different. The south worked out rather well for them, but it was when moving closer to the equator that the problems arose. European settlers demanded that the colonies must live near the rivers while the natives had thrived living far away, hiking to gather water (think: mosquitos). wet/dry season is not the same as the typical 4-season Eurpoean climate, thus their crops failed. Their animals died.

In the meantime, they had begun the process of subjecting them to European/western structure, reshaping their cultural boundaries and living structures (close to rivers). Even when they fled, or simply turned to subjecting the natives to slave labor to mine the valuable minerals of Africa to be sold outside the continent, the colonials had already dramatically, and devastatingly reshaped a human society that had long done what Darwin predicted it should do: adapt perfectly to its environment. Something that humans do better than no other.

Once the Europeans fled, these large cities were now formed in locations and structures that are not adapted to the pressures of equatorial Africa (some of the hardest-hit regions--esp w/ malaria).

simply put: African society needs to be restructured to better suit its environment. The change DOES need to happen internally, but it can't be done without the help of those that raped the continent for centuries. it's the least they are owed.

1: eliminate malaria
2: provide food/water--internal. native agrarian structures to restore pre-colonial, successful infrastructures.
3: remove warlords
4: education
5: provide support to native, educated leaders. those with invested interests in community and their land. those that understand their land best, and especially their people.

none of this is easy. This is far, far more difficult than invasion. and far more expensive, more time-consuming.

It would take generations, though perhaps, is not impossible. Many of these larger communities need to return to their past, successful, agrarian roots. get out of the city and produce resources that can profit on the open market and more importantly: provide nourishment for their own people.

Once the impoverished have their own production, have no need to depend on warlords or tribal allegiance (outside of normal cultural identity), then the tyrants will lose their power base. simple military action can not achieve this--it has to occur in parallel with internal reestablishment of economic power.

basically, Africa is fucked, for some time. But it could get better.

EDIT: and I should note that one of the major problems with malaria, and how the natives had adapted so well was their previous community structures: small in population, spread out. This is almost essential in controlling the spread. Fortunately, many Africans have developed natural immunity and resistance to malaria, so if any people can overcome this, they would be the ones to do it (hell, Singapore did this in the 20th century). European-style cities forced people into largely populated urban clusters, increasing disease which when mixed with the ill-adapted Europeans, spread like wildfire.

restoring earlier social structures should also help slow the spread of HIV, now absolutely devastating the continent. honestly, it would also be good to get the Catholic church the hell otu of Africa--spreading the deplorable ignorance that they are about protected sex is absolutely criminal. I know this is tin foil material, but I'm honestly starting to believe that Benedict sees HIV as the cure for Africa. The recent shit he's spilled from his mouth can only be applied to someone that wants this disease to spread, and wants people to die. At least I can't find any other logic in his campaign.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: alpineranger

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Somalia has to be fixed. At this point, I'm surprised that the regional powers don't do more. Hell, with no real government, widespread poverty, adequate natural resources, and strategic importance, I'm surprised that nobody has tried to flat-out colonize it. However, that word is anathema in today's PC world. Despite this though, it might be a better alternative to the chaos we're seeing now in the region.

Realistically though, I see us sending in our destroyers to blow 'em out of the water. Nobody will shed a tear for the pirates, and they make good target practice.

African nations have higher priority problems to deal with, but IMO the real problem is that everyone expects the US to take care of these problems for them, and then blame the US for "imperialistic aggression" and "meddling in foreign affairs" regardless of what happens in the end. We need to stop being the world's policeman and let people like the Europeans assume their share of responsibility.

I hope the new administration takes the opportunity to make a significant change from the same tired policy that has been going unabated for the past few administrations. We don't need to be facing down Communists in every corner of the world any more. We need to focus on the military objectives that are of primary importance to us and pull back elsewhere (we've been militarily engaged in Iraq continuously for about 20 years now!)

I wasn't saying that we should be the ones doing the fixing necessarily. However, the purpose of the navy, any navy, involves protecting valuable shipping lanes from pirates. I don't think that should fall under being 'world police'. It isn't just African nations that are affected by this though, so other nations than us would have larger incentives than us...

 

[cliftonite]

Originally posted by: Genx87
We cant fix Somalia. Only Somalians can fix it.

Agreed, we have bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If we were like the Nazi's or the Soviets it might not be so bad for us but since we go out of our way to avoid civilians casualties it's not a doable scenario

This just about sums it up.

I would oppose such action.

 

[palehorse]

Someone needs to arm the merchant ships. If that doesnt work, we will need to come up with some massive version of the Coast Guard for NATO... or, more than likely, we simply continue to hit them when we can, and merchants will have to decide for themselves how to mitigate the threats and costs.

The real problems in Somalia are not the pirates. Piracy is merely a symptom of the greater problem that has taken root there: fanatical Islamic terrorism. If you think the seas are fvcked up, you should see downtown Mogadishu and beyond. Somalia may be second only to Pakistan, in terms of it being a hotbed for terrorists.

That place is mad fvcked up.

 

[Andrew111]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Helping Somalia get out of the poverty that drives piracy: would you agree to that?

Funny how the only option on the table for problems is invading.

How do you help a failed state out of poverty when any aid given will be seized by warlords? I'm assuming many international aid organizations won't operate there due to safety concerns.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Helping Somalia get out of the poverty that drives piracy: would you agree to that?

Funny how the only option on the table for problems is invading.

Isn`t the OP a Republican.....lolol

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Andrew111

Originally posted by: Craig234
Helping Somalia get out of the poverty that drives piracy: would you agree to that?

Funny how the only option on the table for problems is invading.

How do you help a failed state out of poverty when any aid given will be seized by warlords? I'm assuming many international aid organizations won't operate there due to safety concerns.

By creating a new state. In the case of the rule of anarchy, warlords, poverty and misery, there's license for helping the society get on its feet in establishing a state.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Andrew111

Originally posted by: Craig234
Helping Somalia get out of the poverty that drives piracy: would you agree to that?

Funny how the only option on the table for problems is invading.

How do you help a failed state out of poverty when any aid given will be seized by warlords? I'm assuming many international aid organizations won't operate there due to safety concerns.

The solution to poverty isn't to hand out free money. In fact, that is often counter-productive. It creates a dependency and discourages the creation of a local economy. There needs to be an initiative to develop infrastructure and industry in Somalia (and many other states).

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Ever see the movie Black Hawk Down? If we were like the Nazi's or the Soviets it might not be so bad for us but since we go out of our way to avoid civilians casualties it's not a doable scenario

QFT... Not to mention the silly question of who's military we'd use. Remember, ours is tied up with more to do than those who sent them ever imagined.

Not that I am in favor of taking action, but the helicopter landing ship that is off the shore right now could most likely do the job by itself it need be. (Assuming it hasn't been stripped of its marine's and equipment)

During the battle of Mogadishu there were only 160 service men involved.
The USS Boxer carries about 1800 marines and 42 aircraft.

 

[alpineranger]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: alpineranger

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Somalia has to be fixed. At this point, I'm surprised that the regional powers don't do more. Hell, with no real government, widespread poverty, adequate natural resources, and strategic importance, I'm surprised that nobody has tried to flat-out colonize it. However, that word is anathema in today's PC world. Despite this though, it might be a better alternative to the chaos we're seeing now in the region.

Realistically though, I see us sending in our destroyers to blow 'em out of the water. Nobody will shed a tear for the pirates, and they make good target practice.

African nations have higher priority problems to deal with, but IMO the real problem is that everyone expects the US to take care of these problems for them, and then blame the US for "imperialistic aggression" and "meddling in foreign affairs" regardless of what happens in the end. We need to stop being the world's policeman and let people like the Europeans assume their share of responsibility.

I hope the new administration takes the opportunity to make a significant change from the same tired policy that has been going unabated for the past few administrations. We don't need to be facing down Communists in every corner of the world any more. We need to focus on the military objectives that are of primary importance to us and pull back elsewhere (we've been militarily engaged in Iraq continuously for about 20 years now!)

I wasn't saying that we should be the ones doing the fixing necessarily. However, the purpose of the navy, any navy, involves protecting valuable shipping lanes from pirates. I don't think that should fall under being 'world police'. It isn't just African nations that are affected by this though, so other nations than us would have larger incentives than us...

We are the world's police by default as others have an expectation that we will come in and shoulder a lot of the burden. This present piracy issue is a good example. Most of the affected haven't been american - just take a look at the nationalities of the crews taken hostage. And while the europeans and asians started out sending some naval force to protect shipping, it is probably going to become a us-dominated effort before long. This has been the historical pattern - even when some other countries ought to take a larger share of responsibility, they are implicitly asking the us to get into the picture. For the US, it's a losing proposition either way.

As for somalia, there are no obvious answers. Invasion - no, blockade (an act of war) - no, proactively going after people in international waters who we suspect may be pirates but haven't caught in the act of piracy - breach of international law. As for arming crews or stationing security personnel on ships - the shipping companies and their insurers have decided it is cheaper just to pay ransoms.

One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

Yeah, this is a great idea. All it'll do is lure terrorists into Somalia. Hell, I'm sure after hearing about how the Navy SEALs rescued the Captain today the terrorists are salivating at all the missed opportunities so far.

I tried to stay out of this thread because of its utter stupidity but the ideas here are too crazy to ignore.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

Q-Ships

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Your lack of thinking is wonderful.

Genx87 says a few posts down, "only Somalians can fix Somalia."

We need to create the environment for that to happen. That will probably mean bringing the neighboring countries together to put pressure on the Somalia factions and maybe an African peace keeping force so some government can begin to form.

There are millions of Somalis with nothing to lose, and the US would literally have to send the entire Navy to that part of the world to kill all the pirates.

The US needs to kill the pirates that come out to attack ships, but also change the country to get to the root cause of the problem. A US invasion is not the answer, but an African invasion may be.

Why do we need to do anything? Why is it the United States job to create a stable environement in Somalia? If African nations want to take that up I applaud their initiative.

I actually partly agree with you. But for nine years the Somalis have been doing nothing to improve their own country; in many cases it has gotten worse now that Muslim extremists have moved in. The US can create the conditions and prod the players to get Somalis to start working on a solution.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

Yeah, this is a great idea. All it'll do is lure terrorists into Somalia. Hell, I'm sure after hearing about how the Navy SEALs rescued the Captain today the terrorists are salivating at all the missed opportunities so far.

I tried to stay out of this thread because of its utter stupidity but the ideas here are too crazy to ignore.

LOL!! If you honestly believe that 1) Somalia needs our help or presence to lure in terrorists, or 2) that terrorists would line up to fight armed foes at sea, like our SEALS, then you're even dumber than I thought possible.

Seriously, you're an idiot.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

Yeah, this is a great idea. All it'll do is lure terrorists into Somalia. Hell, I'm sure after hearing about how the Navy SEALs rescued the Captain today the terrorists are salivating at all the missed opportunities so far.

I tried to stay out of this thread because of its utter stupidity but the ideas here are too crazy to ignore.

LOL!! If you honestly believe that 1) Somalia needs our help or presence to lure in terrorists, or 2) that terrorists would line up to fight armed foes at sea, like our SEALS, then you're even dumber than I thought possible.

Seriously, you're an idiot.

You're the fucking idiot. A typical fucking gnat. You must've forgotten what they did to the USS Cole. For them, the environment is too perfect. Lots of civilians to kill and lots of things to destroy without any residual help. No hospital, just harsh weather.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: alpineranger
One thing I think would be interesting is to set ambushes - put large numbers of heavily armed soldiers on "honeypot" ships and blast the pirates to kingdom come when they take the bait. I haven't heard anyone suggest this idea yet. It's not a solution, but it would give pirates something to think about and would possibly decrease the number of attacks.

I really like that idea... brilliant! :thumbsup:

Yeah, this is a great idea. All it'll do is lure terrorists into Somalia. Hell, I'm sure after hearing about how the Navy SEALs rescued the Captain today the terrorists are salivating at all the missed opportunities so far.

I tried to stay out of this thread because of its utter stupidity but the ideas here are too crazy to ignore.

LOL!! If you honestly believe that 1) Somalia needs our help or presence to lure in terrorists, or 2) that terrorists would line up to fight armed foes at sea, like our SEALS, then you're even dumber than I thought possible.

Seriously, you're an idiot.

You're the fucking idiot. A typical fucking gnat. You must've forgotten what they did to the USS Cole. For them, the environment is too perfect. Lots of civilians to kill and lots of things to destroy.

lol.. you're a riot.

1. Your last two posts are enough to demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about Somalia or Islamic terrorism.

2. Somalia is already second only to Pakistan in terms of the number of terrorists present in the country.

3. Terrorists are already working closely with the pirates in Somalia and elsewhere.

Go back to school son.