Investing/Retirement Advice

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SpanishFry

Platinum Member
Nov 3, 2001
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So I'm going to speak with an agent today about retirement, etc. and they will be promoting Life insurance and disability insurance as the main products I should look at. I like the "investment" aspect of Whole Life but have heard over time it has a negative rate of return (IRR) and should no be considered an investment.

I'm 28, married, no kids. My only true investment is my 401k which I fund the maximum amount my employer will match.

I'm looking for some advice on what I should be considering for investing, retirement, building wealth, etc.

401k - check
Roth IRA - can't participate due to income
Life - ?

I could just fund a personal trading account (etrade, etc.) but I really don't like the tax implications we have now. IF (big If) I play the market correctly and make money, I'm taxed at 38% of the profits with capital gains. That doesn't sound too hot.

So where should I be investing oh wise ATOT?
 

D1gger

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,411
2
76
I looked into life insurance when I was your age and decided that term insurance was the best alternative for me. I just buy as much term insurance as I need (it increased when we had kids and took on more responsibility), and then invested in a retirement account (mostly bonds and money market funds right now, with about 25% in equities) and real estate (personal residences and rental properties).

It has worked for me and I will be set to retire in about 2-3 years. I am just about to turn 51.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Max out your 401(k) to the absolute maximum, not just to what your employer matches. If you're earning enough that you don't qualify for a Roth then you want all the tax-deferred account space you can get.
 

Uppsala9496

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 2001
5,272
19
81
Max out your 401(k) to the absolute maximum, not just to what your employer matches. If you're earning enough that you don't qualify for a Roth then you want all the tax-deferred account space you can get.
This.
You can put away $15,000 a year. Do as much as you can afford and ignore going to see a RIA for now. You obviously don't have enough extra capital to be investing if you can't max the $15,000 a year under a 401k.
If you can put away $15,000 a year in a 401k and still have extra capital sitting around that you would like to invest with, then go see a RIA for some options. Until then, take the pre-tax approach afforded by the 401k. Any other choices are foolish.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,439
211
106
Disabilty insurance is good because most people become disabled over their careers at some point and if you don't have good coverage from your employer. . .
Its expensive though
You don't need life if you have no kids and enough money to put you in the ground, but get term if you have kids
With insurance you can't insure the barn after the fire, so if you think you have any health issues 'ie as evidenced by immediately family' consider that as well
 

NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
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Max out your 401(k) to the absolute maximum, not just to what your employer matches. If you're earning enough that you don't qualify for a Roth then you want all the tax-deferred account space you can get.

This.

Also, term life to cover expenses that your wife can't afford without your income, i.e. mortgage, funeral etc. If she can cover expenses you don't need life until kids come into the picture, although it is cheaper the younger you sign up.

If you still have money left over then you should talk to an advisor to see what your best investment options are based on your goals.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I have a regular brokerage account and buy and hold stock index mutual funds. You get taxable distributions, but they are low for index funds and usually taxed at the long-term rate.

I try to have the high gain / dividend investments (foreign, small-cap) in my IRA rollover and 401k, then invest in lower-dividend funds (mostly S&P 500) in the taxed brokerage account. You could also look at a S&P 500 ETF, but compare expenses carefully a Vanguard fund might have lower expenses than the comparable ETF.

Life insurance should only be to cover death or disability expenses, it's a lousy investment compared to mutual funds and ETFs. The people selling them do it for the commissions not to help you.
 

Elbryn

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2000
1,213
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dont buy the whole life or annuity stuff the insurance agent is going to try to sell you on. they make them huge commissions and not really benefit you so much.
others have it right, stick to term life. the basics on life insurance is to cover the fiscal responsibilities you would be losing if you should croak. ie: how much would it take to get kids to college and family to survive should your income disappear. if there is no family, you may consider not doing this. term life premiums do go up as you get older and health conditions though but is relatively inexpensive. i get 1mil in coverage at age 29 for 20 years at 450 bucks a pop. term4sale is a decent place to get ideas on quotes for life insurance.

the max for 401k's is 16.5k now, so max that out.

from the retirement perspective, you need to do some goal orientated planning before getting into the other stuff. when do you want to retire? how much money will you need at retirement age per year? multiply that by 25 to arrive at the amount of money you'll need to fund that. (4% rule) if you early retire, use 2 or 3%. does your projection take inflation into account? think of things in current dollars then add in inflation of 3% to get an idea of how much you'll need later.

once you know how much and how long you've got to get there, then you can get into the how to achieve that goal. if you need 10 mil and only have 10 years and 50k now, you're going to have to be really risky to achieve that goal. if you've got 10 million in pocket now and only need 15 million in 30 years, well you can afford to be much safer in your investment choices. This is what can help drive your asset allocation. what percentage bonds versus equity? 120-age is one rule. 100 - age is another. You can play with numbers, you used IRR in your post, take the money you're putting in now as an annuity and calculate the IRR you'll need to reach your end goal. This will help tell you how much you'll need to contribute at what rate of return. there's alot of financial math out there available that can tell you expected returns and standard deviations of prospective portfolios. Just keep in mind how well you'd handle a possible 50% loss of your equity position, a la 2007-2008. make sure to include international equity, US equity, and bonds into the mix. you could get fancy and start adding in reit, commodities, international reit/bonds in as well. but you could make a simple portfolio with the three primary components, total international index, total stock market index, and total bond index.

from a where to place money perspective, all of your tax inefficient components should belong in your tax deferred space. that means bonds, cds, money markets, funds with high turnover and dividends. this will save you money in taxes. once you run out of tax deferred space, invest in tax efficient funds. total indexes are relative tax efficient. if you dont have enough tax deferred space to handle all of your bonds, consider ibonds which are tax differed until redemption as a possible component for another 10k a year. EE bonds might be also, not sure.

keep good records of your taxable investments. when you bought, how much and at what price. when the 2007-2008 years come, you can sell tax loss harvest. sell your losers at a capital loss, immediately buy a similar fund (Total stock market can be replaced with a large cap or sp500 and still maintain about 85% of the same coverage. split with a small cap to get the rest or dont bother) the capital loss can be carried over, or used to negate taxes on the winners you may be holding. if the market hasnt changed much after 31 days, you can sell the similar fund and rebuy your original position. the cap loss can also be used to shield 3k in income per year.

realize that retirement funding is more a component of savings rate than it is investing savvy and luck. you'll get a much higher chance of making it by upping your contribution rate that you would hoping for the uber returns. expenses will kill you. a 2% expense costs you 2% of return every year, up or down. indexes are usually the cheapest cost. etfs are nice if you dont have to pay commission with each purchase.

Finally, dont forget to rebalance your portfolio at least once a year. some folks will use bands, ie: when my allocation is off by 5%, then i rebalance. that might be overtly complicated. set a date, preferably two per year and sit down and see where you're at.

cliffs:
1) find your number, how long you have to achieve it. that's your goal
2) figure out what savings rate at what expected return you need to achieve said goal
3) take expected return and plug in your own risk taking level. how much fluctuation can you handle in your portfolio. use this to drive to an asset allocation
4) optimize by placing highly taxable funds in the tax deferred shelters and tax efficient funds in the taxable side. diversify so your eggs are not riding in one basket. this means the world, not just the US
5) keep in mind expense ratios are costs. they dont go away if you had a bad year.
6) now you got a goal and a plan. compare annually/biannually and make appropriate changes in either contributions or shifting to stay on the plan.

ta da!
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,632
126
The advice given above is pretty solid. Keep up the good work ATOT!

I'll chime in to reinforce some ideas.
1) Whole life insurance will sound fantastic when the sales guy is done talking. But, keep in mind, that you are generally buying a mediocre life insurance and a mediocre retirement plan all rolled into one package. Sure, you could do worse. But, you can usually do far better with a proper low-cost investment strategy and a low-cost term life insurance plan. Splitting the two things out gives you the flexibility to get high-quality versions of both life insurance and investments.

Typically the math works out reasonably well for the whole life insurance if you follow their schedule perfectly. But, if you fail one one payment, you pretty much blew any advantage you ever had with the whole life insurance. Can you guarantee for the next ~20 years that you'll able to fund it every month, no matter what? If your answer is no, then you probably will have a good chance of losing money on their scheme. If your answer is yes, then why do you even need their scheme?

2) Max out your 401k. Like Elbryn said, put tax inefficient things in your 401k. Things that pay out regularly or buy/sell stocks regularly. You want those in your 401k since they'd trigger many taxes if they were owned outside a retirement plan. This means things like small company stocks, value stocks, many international stocks, any funds that are actively managed, etc belong in your 401k.

You can put in $16,500 into a 401k this year in most cases (and people in your situation really want to hit $16,500 if possible). Then, you can still put in $5000 into a regular IRA (post tax). Even if you don't get as many advantages as in the post-tax Roth, you still get to avoid the taxes from regular buying/selling.

3) Then open up a standard investment account. In this account, is where you should buy your rarely traded stocks/funds. Think large companies. Think passively managed funds that track the S&P 500 (they rarely sell, meaning you rarely pay short-term capital gains taxes). Think TIPS or individual medium-term bonds that you hold from the start until maturity. Think tax-managed funds intended to minimize taxes.

#2 and #3 combined should give you a diverse portfolio.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,632
126
Oh, I forgot. http://www.amazon.com/Four-Pillars-I.../dp/0071385290

Read up on Sheltered Sam and Taxable Ted in a chapter near the end of that book. It'll tell you why you want some funds in a retirement account and others in your taxable account. It gives good reasons as to how much, what types of accounts, and plenty of descriptions and evidence why you should be doing it.

Just, ignore his real estate (REIT) advice, it was written in a time when a REIT was fantastic, not so much now.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,214
3,632
126
so we shouldn't do 5% in REITs anymore?
Well, I suppose you MIGHT do well with a REIT. But, I'm still quite worried that it hasn't bottomed until ***mercial (business) real estate crashes. I suppose a few percent in real estate isn't too bad of a problem. But, then, most people have the vast majority of their wealth in real estate (their own house), so getting just a few percent in real estate is difficult.

Why is ATOT censoring the word ***mercial?
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Last edited:

sohcrates

Diamond Member
Sep 19, 2000
7,949
0
0
starting 2010 you can rollover ira's to roth IRAs no matter what your income level

drop some cash on a traditional IRA and then immediately roll it over.
 

Elbryn

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2000
1,213
0
0
Oh, I forgot. http://www.amazon.com/Four-Pillars-I.../dp/0071385290

Read up on Sheltered Sam and Taxable Ted in a chapter near the end of that book. It'll tell you why you want some funds in a retirement account and others in your taxable account. It gives good reasons as to how much, what types of accounts, and plenty of descriptions and evidence why you should be doing it.

Just, ignore his real estate (REIT) advice, it was written in a time when a REIT was fantastic, not so much now.

another source of information would be the bogleheads forum, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php. everything there falls into index investing though, so if you drink the kool aid, there is much information to be found by perusing forum posts.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
So I'm going to speak with an agent today about retirement, etc. and they will be promoting Life insurance and disability insurance as the main products I should look at. I like the "investment" aspect of Whole Life but have heard over time it has a negative rate of return (IRR) and should no be considered an investment.

I'm 28, married, no kids. My only true investment is my 401k which I fund the maximum amount my employer will match.

I'm looking for some advice on what I should be considering for investing, retirement, building wealth, etc.

401k - check
Roth IRA - can't participate due to income
Life - ?

I could just fund a personal trading account (etrade, etc.) but I really don't like the tax implications we have now. IF (big If) I play the market correctly and make money, I'm taxed at 38% of the profits with capital gains. That doesn't sound too hot.

So where should I be investing oh wise ATOT?

run away.
now
quickly

anyone that tries to sell you whole/universal/variable life insurance. it's a lifetime of recurring fees your giving to the financial agent (aka salesman).

just stick with term life.

goto this guy to hear his sales pitch but do not buy anything from him.

and absolutely do not sign anything
 
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