Ipod really that good?

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: barnett25
I don't know about the OP, but I don't care about ogg, flac, or wmv (I think you mean wma), I just want an mp3 player. I also don't want a radio, because honestly there isn't anything good on <strike>clearchannel</strike> fm radio today. Does anyone use voice recording? Many people find iTunes to be the best solution to music management out there, if you don't, fine. The battery life is good enough for me, personally at 18hours for the mini (the regular iPod is way too big IMHO). And the sound is good enough for anyone who doesn't spend more on the headphones than the player. I also have yet to find another mp3 player that has a UI half as easy to navigate as the iPod.

The iPod isn't the best choice for everyone (and obviosly not for you), but for what I would call the "average" user it is a very good mp3 player.

Ok, if everything is "good enough for you" (though I'll be honest - you sound like a parent excusing their dull, trouble-making child), as you claim, why not save a few hundred bucks and get a budget player? They don't have all those benefits either. I've yet to hear a valid argument from an ipod proponent on these forums. If the best you can do is lie about not wanting all the benefits of better & less expensive players, perhaps you should consider why you feel the way you do about the ipod... Do you watch a lot of MTV? Do peoples' silhouettes against flat color backgrounds factor into your opinions on it? Are you 20 or younger? Do you want to be just like everyone else?

iPod Minis are competitively priced, Gurck. Just because you automatically label any iPod proponent as a sheep and dismiss their arguments doesn't make your case any stronger. The facts are this:

1. iPods lack the file format support of other players. This is important to some but not to others (I, for instance, only use MP3s).
2. iPods lack recording and FM-tuning capabilities. Again, I could care less but this is important to some users.
3. iPods do not have the best battery life. I don't believe they have the worst either, but I haven't seen a comparison chart among the major contenders. The latest generation of iPod minis generally have pretty good battery life.
4. The iPod interface is generally agreed upon as easy-to-use and intuitive. Another feature that matters to me but maybe not to you.
5. The iPod is consistently rated and reviewed well among reputable review sites and among users. You've dismissed this argument in the past, but I don't believe that all review sites have some sort of agenda for Apple.
6. The iPod is expensive. While the Mini is priced competitively, its big brother is pricier that similar players.
7. The iPod is slimmer and smaller than most of its competition.

It comes down to a matter of priorities and what features/limitations are important to you. I think you have a number of good arguments in favor of iPod alternatives, but frankly your attitude in your iPod posts is so caustic that it detracts from your points.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
You automatically assume I am an iPod fanboy? Get over yourself, jesus christ. Do you not remember my thread about the upcoming X5? Hell, you even poster in it. I am merely trying to use the example of someone who has gone through a sh!tload of DAPs, and considers the 4th iPod one of his top 3 players, that it isn't as bad as you proclaim. I agree with you that it doesn't have the features I wan't, but you constantly label it as an uberexpensive POS, which is so far from the truth, it is ridiculous.

The 4th gen 20GB iPod is only $8 more than the H320, with both prices being from respectable vendors. The way you talk about it, you'd think it would cost $500 for the 20GB.

I never said it was $500, I said it was the most expensive player - and it is. The only players whose prices approach it are feature-packed, great sounding players. Players which approximate it in features & sound quality are as little as half its price.

Again, stop trusting people who have their own agendas and perspectives and think for yourself. For all we know the guy could be in Apple's pocket or could have less computer knowledge than great-aunt Thelma. While both scenarios would make him lean toward their package, which is aimed at the lowest common denominator, neither would make it a less crappy player. If you could recall why he liked it and say you agreed you'd at least have an argument, though a weak one, but regurgitating what you've been told is lazy at best.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: barnett25
I don't know about the OP, but I don't care about ogg, flac, or wmv (I think you mean wma), I just want an mp3 player. I also don't want a radio, because honestly there isn't anything good on <strike>clearchannel</strike> fm radio today. Does anyone use voice recording? Many people find iTunes to be the best solution to music management out there, if you don't, fine. The battery life is good enough for me, personally at 18hours for the mini (the regular iPod is way too big IMHO). And the sound is good enough for anyone who doesn't spend more on the headphones than the player. I also have yet to find another mp3 player that has a UI half as easy to navigate as the iPod.

The iPod isn't the best choice for everyone (and obviosly not for you), but for what I would call the "average" user it is a very good mp3 player.

Ok, if everything is "good enough for you" (though I'll be honest - you sound like a parent excusing their dull, trouble-making child), as you claim, why not save a few hundred bucks and get a budget player? They don't have all those benefits either. I've yet to hear a valid argument from an ipod proponent on these forums. If the best you can do is lie about not wanting all the benefits of better & less expensive players, perhaps you should consider why you feel the way you do about the ipod... Do you watch a lot of MTV? Do peoples' silhouettes against flat color backgrounds factor into your opinions on it? Are you 20 or younger? Do you want to be just like everyone else?

iPod Minis are competitively priced, Gurck. Just because you automatically label any iPod proponent as a sheep and dismiss their arguments doesn't make your case any stronger. The facts are this:

1. iPods lack the file format support of other players. This is important to some but not to others (I, for instance, only use MP3s).
2. iPods lack recording and FM-tuning capabilities. Again, I could care less but this is important to some users.
3. iPods do not have the best battery life. I don't believe they have the worst either, but I haven't seen a comparison chart among the major contenders. The latest generation of iPod minis generally have pretty good battery life.
4. The iPod interface is generally agreed upon as easy-to-use and intuitive. Another feature that matters to me but maybe not to you.
5. The iPod is consistently rated and reviewed well among reputable review sites and among users. You've dismissed this argument in the past, but I don't believe that all review sites have some sort of agenda for Apple.
6. The iPod is expensive. While the Mini is priced competitively, its big brother is pricier that similar players.
7. The iPod is slimmer and smaller than most of its competition.

It comes down to a matter of priorities and what features/limitations are important to you. I think you have a number of good arguments in favor of iPod alternatives, but frankly your attitude in your iPod posts is so caustic that it detracts from your points.

valid argument, but unfortunately, you forgot 2 things.

1. default, the ipod is slightly (+2 i think on the spectrum extremes) warmer, not a big issue, but to get flat sound +0, it can take a bit of work.

2. to be competitive, it forgoes all acessories but the earbuds and usb cable. no ac adapter even, that was the dealbreaker for me since my dap is usualyy in a dock(hooked up to my stero) so no ac adapter/dock is a killer(espically since buying it seperate raises costs considerably)

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
valid argument, but unfortunately, you forgot 2 things.

1. default, the ipod is slightly (+2 i think on the spectrum extremes) warmer, not a big issue, but to get flat sound +0, it can take a bit of work.

2. to be competitive, it forgoes all acessories but the earbuds and usb cable. no ac adapter even, that was the dealbreaker for me since my dap is usualyy in a dock(hooked up to my stero) so no ac adapter/dock is a killer(espically since buying it seperate raises costs considerably)

Good points. Of course, being the most popular player, the iPod has more third-party accessory options (car stereo integration, protective cases, etc.) than other players as well.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Just because you automatically label any iPod proponent as a sheep and dismiss their arguments doesn't make your case any stronger.

And lying about what others have said doesn't help yours My guess is that you want desperately to argue with anyone who isn't as caught up in the ipod's advertising as yourself, but lacking a real reason, you feel making stuff up is the best option. My advice in this scenario is to simply not post.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Good points. Of course, being the most popular player, the iPod has more third-party accessory options (car stereo integration, protective cases, etc.) than other players as well.

Indeed that is a good point - to get the functionality with an ipood which comes standard with many other players which are less expensive to begin with, you must spend even more money.

 

[barnett25]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Ok, if everything is "good enough for you" (though I'll be honest - you sound like a parent excusing their dull, trouble-making child), as you claim, why not save a few hundred bucks and get a budget player? They don't have all those benefits either. I've yet to hear a valid argument from an ipod proponent on these forums. If the best you can do is lie about not wanting all the benefits of better & less expensive players, perhaps you should consider why you feel the way you do about the ipod... Do you watch a lot of MTV? Do peoples' silhouettes against flat color backgrounds factor into your opinions on it? Are you 20 or younger? Do you want to be just like everyone else?

I am willing to give up a bunch of things I don't want (flac, ogg, wma, fm, voice recording) for the things I do want that none of the other players I've used have (good UI, good software for putting music on the player, small design). And $250 for the 6GB iPod mini does not seem that expensive compared to the compititon. It all has to do with your priorities. Mine center around making the player so easy to use I don't have to think about it. Yours seems to be more centered around having a swiss-army knife kind of player. Thats fine, but don't assume that everyone else has the same priorities as you.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: MrChad
Just because you automatically label any iPod proponent as a sheep and dismiss their arguments doesn't make your case any stronger.

And lying about what others have said doesn't help yours My guess is that you want desperately to argue with anyone who isn't as caught up in the ipod's advertising as yourself, but lacking a real reason, you feel making stuff up is the best option. My advice in this scenario is to simply not post.

Wow thanks for proving my point. So I'm a liar and I'm caught up in the ipod's advertising? Hopefully everyone will now see you for the troll you are.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: MrChad
Just because you automatically label any iPod proponent as a sheep and dismiss their arguments doesn't make your case any stronger.

And lying about what others have said doesn't help yours My guess is that you want desperately to argue with anyone who isn't as caught up in the ipod's advertising as yourself, but lacking a real reason, you feel making stuff up is the best option. My advice in this scenario is to simply not post.

Wow thanks for proving my point. So I'm a liar and I'm caught up in the ipod's advertising? Hopefully everyone will now see you for the troll you are.

This should have been obvious once he made this comment:

Ipods aren't the best, they're among the worst.

Give me a freakin' break. :roll:

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: barnett25

Originally posted by: Gurck
Ok, if everything is "good enough for you" (though I'll be honest - you sound like a parent excusing their dull, trouble-making child), as you claim, why not save a few hundred bucks and get a budget player? They don't have all those benefits either. I've yet to hear a valid argument from an ipod proponent on these forums. If the best you can do is lie about not wanting all the benefits of better & less expensive players, perhaps you should consider why you feel the way you do about the ipod... Do you watch a lot of MTV? Do peoples' silhouettes against flat color backgrounds factor into your opinions on it? Are you 20 or younger? Do you want to be just like everyone else?

I am willing to give up a bunch of things I don't want (flac, ogg, wma, fm, voice recording) for the things I do want that none of the other players I've used have (good UI, good software for putting music on the player, small design). And $250 for the 6GB iPod mini does not seem that expensive compared to the compititon. It all has to do with your priorities. Mine center around making the player so easy to use I don't have to think about it. Yours seems to be more centered around having a swiss-army knife kind of player. Thats fine, but don't assume that everyone else has the same priorities as you.

You make it sound as if other players are designed to be difficult to use, which simply is not true. Further, itunes is free software and can be used seperately to play music on PC even if the PC's owner has no ipod. It has no place in a DAP argument. On size, keep in mind that the ipod is small because it has such a small battery. In addition to being responsible for its short battery life, this is also responsible in part for its low sound quality; specifically its tendency to sound tinny. Bass takes more energy to reproduce than mids and highs, so be attenuating it Apple was able to lengthen the ipod's battery life to 1/2-3/4 what other playres have at the expense of tinny sounding music. Further, have a look at the Rio Carbon and iAudio m3 if size is a concern. You have a point on price; the bigger discrepancies are found between the 20-40gb ipod models and their competition.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Wow thanks for proving my point. So I'm a liar and I'm caught up in the ipod's advertising? Hopefully everyone will now see you for the troll you are.

What point? You are indeed a liar; you lied about what I've said. I'm not sure if your purpose is to attack my character or to justify further arguing, but that's beside the point. Lastly, calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll is the weakest argument I've ever heard. The purpose of a discussion board is to discuss things, not namecall when lacking an argument vs. someone whose opinion differs from yours. Posters like yourself are a forceful reminder that these boards, unfortunately, have no age or IQ requirement :frown:

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Gurck
Ipods aren't the best, they're among the worst.

Give me a freakin' break. :roll:

Have any reasoning or just arguing for the sake of it?

 

[JackBurton]

Hey does anyone else know who makes a 60GB MP3 player besides Apple?

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Hey does anyone else know who makes a 60GB MP3 player besides Apple?

Creative is the big one, less popular DAP manufacturers with a 60gb model include Toshiba & Neuros.

 

[t3h l337 n3wb]

OMFG IF U BUY AN IPOD I WILL SPAM YOUE SO BADLY YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO RECEIVE EMAIL AGAIN -_-;. j/k But seriously, iPods are horrible. Just like many, many people have said in this thread, the only reason why people get iPods is because of advertising. Only ignorant, retarded, rich people get iPods. If you want value and the most for your money, Creative Zen Xtra 30GB is ~$180, compared to an iPod 30GB which is like $300+. The Creative Zen Micro has 5 GB, which is more than enough if you're just listening to music. That's about 1000 songs. Also, its one of the smalles players ever, about the size of your palm. AND, it has a touch pad. Price is decent too, about $120-$130 I think. Also, it has the best sound quality in its class. The old iPod minis had the WORST sound quality in its class. The new ones are better, but are still pretty expensive, don't have color screens, aren't that small and portable, and are still pretty crappy. There is absolutely no reason that you should get an iPod.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Hey does anyone else know who makes a 60GB MP3 player besides Apple?

Creative is the big one, less popular DAP manufacturers with a 60gb model include Toshiba & Neuros.

Please dude, don't include the ghetto Creative player. That thing just screams cheese!

Checked out Neuros...ghetto.

Checked out Toshiba...not bad, but no color screen and the iPod looks like it would feel better in your hand.

So far, the only thing that looks like it's in the same league as the iPod is the iAudio X5, but I think that it only goes up to 40GB.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: MrChad
Wow thanks for proving my point. So I'm a liar and I'm caught up in the ipod's advertising? Hopefully everyone will now see you for the troll you are.

What point? You are indeed a liar; you lied about what I've said. I'm not sure if your purpose is to attack my character or to justify further arguing, but that's beside the point. Lastly, calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll is the weakest argument I've ever heard. The purpose of a discussion board is to discuss things, not namecall when lacking an argument vs. someone whose opinion differs from yours. Posters like yourself are a forceful reminder that these boards, unfortunately, have no age or IQ requirement :frown:

I wasn't attacking your character (at least in my first post). You have iSheep in your signature. Also, you consistently label people who support iPods as "fanboys", "children", "MTV watchers" or any number of personal insults. I'm not making this up, go back and review your posts.

As for namecalling, so far you've called me a liar and implied that I am stupid and/or young. I've only called you a troll because of your antagonistic attitude. I would love to have a civil discussion regarding iPods and their advantages/disadvantages with you, but you refuse to allow that to happen in these threads.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Hey does anyone else know who makes a 60GB MP3 player besides Apple?

Creative is the big one, less popular DAP manufacturers with a 60gb model include Toshiba & Neuros.

Please dude, don't include the ghetto Creative player. That thing just screams cheese!

Checked out Neuros...ghetto.

Checked out Toshiba...not bad, but no color screen and the iPod looks like it would feel better in your hand.

So far, the only thing that looks like it's in the same league as the iPod is the iAudio X5, but I think that it only goes up to 40GB.

waht do you plan to do with 60gb? isnt that around 15k songs (mp3)?

anyway, any mp3 palyer using a toshiba drive can easily be taken apart and have a 60gb drive added later if you find you can fill it up with 1000 albums worth of music.

flac or wav might be a different thing entirely but at 60gb, mp3/wma/ogg is worthless. no way you can fill it up.

alos dont use it as a backup drive. the chance is small, but still infinately greater than a stationary backup hdd to have the dap hdd break down due to movement.

 

[ManBearPig]

you can dl programs that allow you to put your music back on your pc...

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Hey does anyone else know who makes a 60GB MP3 player besides Apple?

Creative is the big one, less popular DAP manufacturers with a 60gb model include Toshiba & Neuros.

Please dude, don't include the ghetto Creative player. That thing just screams cheese!

Checked out Neuros...ghetto.

Checked out Toshiba...not bad, but no color screen and the iPod looks like it would feel better in your hand.

So far, the only thing that looks like it's in the same league as the iPod is the iAudio X5, but I think that it only goes up to 40GB.

waht do you plan to do with 60gb? isnt that around 15k songs (mp3)?

anyway, any mp3 palyer using a toshiba drive can easily be taken apart and have a 60gb drive added later if you find you can fill it up with 1000 albums worth of music.

flac or wav might be a different thing entirely but at 60gb, mp3/wma/ogg is worthless. no way you can fill it up.

alos dont use it as a backup drive. the chance is small, but still infinately greater than a stationary backup hdd to have the dap hdd break down due to movement.

Umm, copying close to 60GB of my music to it? (I used to work at a music store) What am I going to do with 40GB worth of storage if I have more than 40GB of music? Knowing me, the song that I want to listen to wasn't included on the music I dumped on my player. :| It's all or nothing.

flac or wav might be a different thing entirely but at 60gb, mp3/wma/ogg is worthless. no way you can fill it up.

Never say never.

 

[t3h l337 n3wb]

WTF 60 gigs of music?! Thats insane. You realize, thats like $1000+ wasted on music. How can you listen to so much? With $1000 I could build a decent comp. Comp > music.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Umm, copying close to 60GB of my music to it? (I used to work at a music store) What am I going to do with 40GB worth of storage if I have more than 40GB of music? Knowing me, the song that I want to listen to wasn't included on the music I dumped on my player. :| It's all or nothing.

flac or wav might be a different thing entirely but at 60gb, mp3/wma/ogg is worthless. no way you can fill it up.

Never say never.

:shocked:

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: MrChad
You have iSheep in your signature.

I sure do. "iSheep" and "all ipod owners are sheep" are two very different things. I've said the first, but not the second.

Also, you consistently label people who support iPods as "fanboys", "children", "MTV watchers" or any number of personal insults.

Sorry you're not able to read my posts or see the difference between somebody who loves the ipod but gives no reason, instead flaming anyone who doesn't love it (ie. a fanboy, kid and/or MTV robot) and someone able to actually discuss the DAP scene, whether or not they like Apple. Perhaps when you're a bit older...

As for namecalling, so far you've called me a liar

YOU LIED, you ARE a liar.

and implied that I am stupid and/or young. I've only called you a troll because of your antagonistic attitude.

Oh the irony...

I would love to have a civil discussion regarding iPods and their advantages/disadvantages with you, but you refuse to allow that to happen in these threads.

No, people like you won't let it happen. Anyone who isn't exactly like you is a troll for stating their opinion. :roll: God I hate kids.

 

[barnett25]

Originally posted by: Gurck
You make it sound as if other players are designed to be difficult to use, which simply is not true. Further, itunes is free software and can be used seperately to play music on PC even if the PC's owner has no ipod. It has no place in a DAP argument. On size, keep in mind that the ipod is small because it has such a small battery. In addition to being responsible for its short battery life, this is also responsible in part for its low sound quality; specifically its tendency to sound tinny. Bass takes more energy to reproduce than mids and highs, so be attenuating it Apple was able to lengthen the ipod's battery life to 1/2-3/4 what other playres have at the expense of tinny sounding music. Further, have a look at the Rio Carbon and iAudio m3 if size is a concern. You have a point on price; the bigger discrepancies are found between the 20-40gb ipod models and their competition.

iTunes is the #1 reason I like iPods. It is the most useful mp3 playing software I've tried (I've also used fubar2000, Winamp, QCD, and WMP). If other mp3 players could be used with iTunes it wouldn't be an issue, but that is not the case. I am not up to date on what creative ships with their mp3 players, but that last iRiver I had used an interface that looked like Windows Explorer. This I found to be frustratingly useless. iTunes allows for very flexible, easy, and quick transfers of the music I want.

To the OP, I would say if you are an audiophile do not look to the iPod. If you want a 20GB or larger mp3 player the iPod is still an OK option, but only if you see enough of a reason to pay the higher price. If you are looking at the 4-6GB size, and don't want FM or voice recording I recommend the iPod mini hands down.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: Excelsior
You automatically assume I am an iPod fanboy? Get over yourself, jesus christ. Do you not remember my thread about the upcoming X5? Hell, you even poster in it. I am merely trying to use the example of someone who has gone through a sh!tload of DAPs, and considers the 4th iPod one of his top 3 players, that it isn't as bad as you proclaim. I agree with you that it doesn't have the features I wan't, but you constantly label it as an uberexpensive POS, which is so far from the truth, it is ridiculous.

The 4th gen 20GB iPod is only $8 more than the H320, with both prices being from respectable vendors. The way you talk about it, you'd think it would cost $500 for the 20GB.

I never said it was $500, I said it was the most expensive player - and it is. The only players whose prices approach it are feature-packed, great sounding players. Players which approximate it in features & sound quality are as little as half its price.

Again, stop trusting people who have their own agendas and perspectives and think for yourself. For all we know the guy could be in Apple's pocket or could have less computer knowledge than great-aunt Thelma. While both scenarios would make him lean toward their package, which is aimed at the lowest common denominator, neither would make it a less crappy player. If you could recall why he liked it and say you agreed you'd at least have an argument, though a weak one, but regurgitating what you've been told is lazy at best.

Goddamnit, it is impossible to have a conversation with you. I know you didn't say it costs $500, I never said you did. Simple reading comprehension would show you that. I assume when you speak of players that are equal in terms of features or sound quality bust cost half as much, you are talking of the Karma? If not, then what players are you talking about? I see the Karma's lowest price shipped from a reputable vendor being $188, obviously not half as much. Please show me these 20GB mp3 players which are equal in terms of features and/or sound quality that I can get for less than $145 shipped from a reputable vendor.


Again, stop assuming I trust him, and that I am not thinking for myself. I am merely pointing out, that a well respected reviewer of DAPs (think what you want about him getting money from Apple), and try reading his reviews to see what he knows, or is that too much research/work for you? Did I say "OMG, the iPod is kickass because someone said so."? Not quite.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
Goddamnit, it is impossible to have a conversation with you. I know you didn't say it costs $500, I never said you did. Simple reading comprehension would show you that. I assume when you speak of players that are equal in terms of features or sound quality bust cost half as much, you are talking of the Karma? If not, then what players are you talking about? I see the Karma's lowest price shipped from a reputable vendor being $188, obviously not half as much. Please show me these 20GB mp3 players which are equal in terms of features and/or sound quality that I can get for less than $145 shipped from a reputable vendor.


Again, stop assuming I trust him, and that I am not thinking for myself. I am merely pointing out, that a well respected reviewer of DAPs (think what you want about him getting money from Apple), and try reading his reviews to see what he knows, or is that too much research/work for you? Did I say "OMG, the iPod is kickass because someone said so."? Not quite.

I never claimed you said that I had stated the Ipod was $500, you mentioend something about simple reading comprehension? Actually we are conversing on it, and though it's not as smooth as it could be, it beats having young'uns lie about what I've said and call me names for disagreeing with them, all while mysteriously avoiding actual issues, so I guess I can't complain.

The player which is as little as half as much is the 40gb Zen Xtra, as low as $200 vs. $400 for the 40gb ipod.

Your post did indeed read as "soandso says it, so it must be true". Perhaps it's because you gave no actual reasoning for your feeling that it's a good player. I never said that he's taking money under the table from Apple, I only brought it up as a possibility. My point was simply that we have no idea where he's coming from without knowing him personally or chatting with him about it. What if you had his AIM name and asked him about it, only to get a response like "wut ur 2 b iz ne1 plz"? Would you still take him seriously? We have no way of knowing his angle on this. It could be as simple as his editor not wanting to piss off Apple for fear of losing advertising dollars from them.