Iran: Consequences Of War

jpeyton

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Text

The two most interesting sections are, of course, the Iranian Responses and Wider Responses.

The report also discusses the difference in responses in an attack by the US versus an attack by Israel (which in this case would be very little, since the two would be in collaboration in this situation).

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Iranian Responses

Redevelopment of nuclear programme. However badly Iran?s nuclear infrastructure was damaged in an attack, an immediate response would be to reconstitute the infrastructure and work rapidly and in secret towards a clear nuclear weapons capability. This would probably involve giving formal notice of withdrawal from the Non-Proliferation Treaty, followed by the immediate reconstitution of the nuclear infrastructure, developing it wherever possible in a more survivable manner. This would include systems redundancy, dispersal of research, development and production capabilities and the use of deep underground facilities for future work wherever feasible.

Furthermore, there may already be elements of redundancy built in to the current Iranian civil nuclear programme and there may be elements of which the United States is unaware. If so, this would aid the reconstitution of capabilities. More generally, any hope of negotiating away Iran?s suspected nuclear weapons programme in the years after a US attack would vanish, undermining global non-proliferation efforts. Rather than living with an Iran that had the potential to produce nuclear weapons, the US action would almost certainly guarantee an overtly nuclear-armed Iran for decades to come or, alternatively, further instances of military action.

Hezbollah. Iran would be likely to encourage more militant action by Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. Given that Hezbollah now has large quantities of surface-to-surface missiles of a range sufficient to reach Haifa and other population centres in the north of Israel, a vigorous Israeli response should be expected, further adding to an atmosphere of crisis. It is true that Hezbollah is currently undergoing a period of substantial political transformation, moving more firmly into the social and political arenas, so that major military action against Israel would be a regression to previous patterns. This is to be expected, though, given the likely extent of the popular support for Iran resulting from US military action.

Any action from Hezbollah would result in substantial Israeli military responses. At the very least these would involve air strikes, the use of artillery and battlefield missiles and naval bombardment. They might extend to cross-border operations by infantry and armoured units.

Straits of Hormuz. While one major aim of any US military action would be to forestall Iranian interference with Gulf oil exports, this would have to be near total in its effect on Iranian capabilities. This would be difficult if not impossible to achieve, leading to a fear of attack which alone would have a formidable impact on oil markets.

West Gulf oil facilities. Furthermore, it would be possible for paramilitary units linked to Iran to develop the ability to sabotage oil export facilities in western Gulf states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. High levels of security would undoubtedly be maintained in these states, yet determined paramilitary groups would be difficult to control with certainty. Even one or two incidents of sabotage would raise tensions and further affect oil markets.

Revolutionary Guard. The Revolutionary Guard remains a strong if largely free-standing component of the Iranian defence system. While its facilities on the Persian Gulf coast and close to the border with Iran might be damaged in the early waves of US attacks, there would also be a very substantial base of support for the Guard, expressed by immediate improvements in morale, a greatly enhanced ability to recruit, and a determination to respond. Although US military action against Guard facilities might be undertaken to ?warn off? the Guard from interfering in Iraq, the effect would almost certainly be shortlived, and the numerous links which already exist between Guard units and Iraqi Shi?a militias would be activated rapidly. Such demonstrable Iranian involvement in the Iraqi insurgency would result in an escalating US military response involving cross-border attacks on Iranian logistics. This would increase Iranian civilian casualties, cause economic disruption and also further increase internal Iranian support for the current regime.

Overall, and given the nature of the Iran/Iraq border, Iran would be in a very strong position to aid elements of the Iraqi insurgency in numerous ways, providing a wide range of armaments as well as personnel. This would give a substantial boost to an insurgency that, even three years after the termination of the old regime, is as active as ever.

Wider Responses

The consequences described above relate to the immediate responses from within Iran or from associates in Lebanon. Probably the most difficult response to predict would be the effect of a military confrontation with Iran on the attitudes and reactions from within wider Islamic communities. Although there is an uneasy relationship between Iran and the al-Qaida movement, and between Iran and the Arab world, any attack on such a significant Islamic republic would inevitably increase the anti-American mood in the region and beyond, giving greater impetus to a movement that is already a global phenomenon.

One of the most significant developments of the past four years has been the ability of the al-Qaida movement and its associates to survive and thrive in an intensely antagonistic environment. Since 9/11, the movement has experienced the loss of many key leadership elements, either killed or detained, has lost its main operating areas in Afghanistan and has seen over 70,000 people detained for lengthy periods. Even so, the level of activity in those past four years has actually been substantially higher than in the four years prior to the 9/11 attacks.

Of particular significance has been the evolution of suicide bombing. Historically, this phenomenon has been widespread and has not been restricted to radical Islamist groups, but individual campaigns involving suicide bombing have been narrow in their geographical focus. These have included the Tamil Tigers (LTTE) in Sri Lanka, Kurdish separatists in Turkey, Hezbollah supporters in Southern Lebanon and Palestinian radicals in Israel/Palestine. These have all been directed at responding to occupation and perceived oppression in a localised region.

For the first time, at least on a substantial scale, suicide bombing has gone transnational, often involving well-educated individuals who are motivated to respond not to their known immediate circumstances but to the wider circumstances of co-religionists. They are aided by the huge increase in information now available through satellite TV news channels and the internet, and may be prepared to travel substantial distances to undertake their actions.

If the United States is prepared to extend its current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan to Iran, this trend should be expected to get a substantial further boost, with consequences that are difficult to predict. It will certainly be yet another example of a reaction that will serve to damage US security interests in the region and beyond.

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The gist of the situation: the US is not in an advantageous position to attack Iran. Given the obvious failures in the war on terror (with terrorist and insurgent activity far exceeding pre-war levels in both Afghanistan, Iraq, and abroad), and with the US military seriously occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan, any attack on Iran would put our military in a tough situation. Of course, our military might far outweighs that of Iran; but military might does not play a factor in long occupations, and Iran would make our occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan hell on earth. Couple this with the huge effect on oil prices that a conflict with Iran would cause, and it is easy to see why a military attack on Iran is not in the American people's best interest.

But (and this is a big but), the situation would still be in Bush's best interest. A spike in oil prices and a dramatic increase in military expenditure is exactly what he and his cronies want.
 

MegaWorks

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
3,819
1
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The Neo-Cons and their supporters would be the biggest idiots if they decide to attack Iran.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: jpeyton

The gist of the situation: the US is not in an advantageous position to attack Iran. Given the obvious failures in the war on terror (with terrorist and insurgent activity far exceeding pre-war levels in both Afghanistan, Iraq, and abroad), and with the US military seriously occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan, any attack on Iran would put our military in a tough situation. Of course, our military might far outweighs that of Iran; but military might does not play a factor in long occupations, and Iran would make our occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan hell on earth. Couple this with the huge effect on oil prices that a conflict with Iran would cause, and it is easy to see why a military attack on Iran is not in the American people's best interest.

But (and this is a big but), the situation would still be in Bush's best interest. A spike in oil prices and a dramatic increase in military expenditure is exactly what he and his cronies want.

Regardless of any analysis, I see only a no-win situation. A "damned if you do, damned if you don't". And I mean really really damned. I'm very pessimistic about this.

Whether it be Nazi Germany or any of the other numerous Kingdoms, countries etc down through history, when we see this kind of military buildup war follows.

A pre-emptive strike to ward-off such a buildup, and the almost certain war following such a buildup, seems to offer little other than armaggedden type senario. Perhaps at best a little delay in the inevitable.

OTOH, allowing the buildup will surely result in them eventually launching IMHO. Same result as above.

I guess I feel like humankind is eventually to going to "checkmate" itself. I.e., arrive at a situation where all of the alternatives lead to losing big-time. And this Muslim vs the rest of the planet thingy looks like it.

We need to find a Stargate, or develope warp drive spaceships to get out of this mess.
 
Jan 14, 2006
83
0
0
If we can build fast food joints quick enough ,as we invade, then perhaps we can plump them up into a nation of bloated, apathetic 'freedom lovers' and their resistance will quickly fade.
I have confidence in our government to do the job properly. Why can't you?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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If we don't attack: Iran will remain a signatory of the NPT, will allow inspections of its facilities, and may or may not build nuclear weapons.

If we do attack: Iran will withdraw from the NPT, will remove all inspectors, and will most likely build nuclear weapons.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Mmmm, no. It's not all roses if the U.S. does not attack.
It's an untenable situation either way.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: arsbanned
Mmmm, no. It's not all roses if the U.S. does not attack.
It's an untenable situation either way.

You're right, they might still build nukes. But there is a difference between them "maybe" building a nuke (as of which there is no hard proof of), or them definitely building a nuke (which they would do as a response to unprovoked military attack).

Hypothetically, if both paths lead to them acquiring nuclear weapons, the path of non-agression would be much more beneficial for the American people, don't you think?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Iran's country has been destroyed by religious fanatics.
The same idiots who destroyed the country run the military. I think their brains are the size of peanuts.

Therefore, let's send in some F-15s (hey our pilots need to have fun) and bomb Iran. Iran's F-14, F-4 pilots are pretty amazing, but their aircraft are old. Their kill-ratio is only beat by Israel, U.S.

The Bush administration requested 70 million for Iranian programs to help the Iranian people get rid of the regime. I wonder how they are going to use this money.

like the article said... attacking Iran would be nothing like attack Iraq. The consequences would be more severe.

I still think it is a risk the U.S should take (my opinion differs from almost all Iranians, but I speak for myself).

I only said that because I want to see Iran free from religion. So my opinions are pretty biased and selfish. I won't lie.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Attacking Iraq was a HUGE WASTE of lives and CASH.. LOTS OF CASH

The US Military attacking Iraq is similar to High School Seniors kicking ass on a bunch of 3rd graders..
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Iran's country has been destroyed by religious fanatics.
The same idiots who destroyed the country run the military. I think their brains are the size of peanuts.

Therefore, let's send in some F-15s (hey our pilots need to have fun) and bomb Iran. Iran's F-14, F-4 pilots are pretty amazing, but their aircraft are old. Their kill-ratio is only beat by Israel, U.S.

The Bush administration requested 70 million for Iranian programs to help the Iranian people get rid of the regime. I wonder how they are going to use this money.

like the article said... attacking Iran would be nothing like attack Iraq. The consequences would be more severe.

I still think it is a risk the U.S should take (my opinion differs from almost all Iranians, but I speak for myself).

I only said that because I want to see Iran free from religion. So my opinions are pretty biased and selfish. I won't lie.

Iranian pilots are not ahead of Indian pilots. Indian pilots seem to be winning the wargames between America and India. Maybe its their aircraft, maybe its pride or maybe its their skill. Also, Iran may or may not be able to use the F-14s due to lack of spares. Maybe very limited usage. I don't know where you got those kill-ratios from, but they seem very wild.

Yes, Iranians seem to love America, but tell that to many Americans. They'll be the first ones to volunteer and protect the Islamofascists that run Iran.

The holy men that run the great country of Iran are not stupid. They are probably much more wise than we will ever be. That is what I'm afraid of the most. They likely have long term plans in the 5-10 year range, while we think about a 2 minutes ahead. The difference isn't so great, but its there.

I also don't want us to attack Iran or any other country at the moment. We have aided Iran by getting rid of Saddam and Afghanistan's Taliban, we should not aid them anymore.

Does anyone really think the Iranians will not build a nuke if we don't attack them? If you really think so, Ahmadinejad will likely give you the key to the city.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Aimster
Iran's country has been destroyed by religious fanatics.
The same idiots who destroyed the country run the military. I think their brains are the size of peanuts.

Therefore, let's send in some F-15s (hey our pilots need to have fun) and bomb Iran. Iran's F-14, F-4 pilots are pretty amazing, but their aircraft are old. Their kill-ratio is only beat by Israel, U.S.

The Bush administration requested 70 million for Iranian programs to help the Iranian people get rid of the regime. I wonder how they are going to use this money.

like the article said... attacking Iran would be nothing like attack Iraq. The consequences would be more severe.

I still think it is a risk the U.S should take (my opinion differs from almost all Iranians, but I speak for myself).

I only said that because I want to see Iran free from religion. So my opinions are pretty biased and selfish. I won't lie.

Iranian pilots are not ahead of Indian pilots. Indian pilots seem to be winning the wargames between America and India. Maybe its their aircraft, maybe its pride or maybe its their skill. Also, Iran may or may not be able to use the F-14s due to lack of spares. Maybe very limited usage. I don't know where you got those kill-ratios from, but they seem very wild.

Yes, Iranians seem to love America, but tell that to many Americans. They'll be the first ones to volunteer and protect the Islamofascists that run Iran.

I also don't want us to attack Iran or any other country at the moment. We have aided Iran by getting rid of Saddam and Afghanistan's Taliban, we should not aid them anymore.

Does anyone really think the Iranians will not build a nuke if we don't attack them? If you really think so, Ahmadinejad will likely give you the key to the city.

I wasn't talking about pilot skills. Indian pilots haven't been in any recent wars to claim any high kill ratios.

U.S pilots averaged more kills each then Israel then Iran

U.S - Kosovo
Israel - Syria/Lebanon
Iran - Iraq

There was one Iranian pilot who claimed 8 aircraft and others countless more.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: raildogg
Does anyone really think the Iranians will not build a nuke if we don't attack them?
Does anyone really think Iranians will not build a nuke if we do attack them?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Aimster
Iran's country has been destroyed by religious fanatics.
The same idiots who destroyed the country run the military. I think their brains are the size of peanuts.

Therefore, let's send in some F-15s (hey our pilots need to have fun) and bomb Iran. Iran's F-14, F-4 pilots are pretty amazing, but their aircraft are old. Their kill-ratio is only beat by Israel, U.S.

The Bush administration requested 70 million for Iranian programs to help the Iranian people get rid of the regime. I wonder how they are going to use this money.

like the article said... attacking Iran would be nothing like attack Iraq. The consequences would be more severe.

I still think it is a risk the U.S should take (my opinion differs from almost all Iranians, but I speak for myself).

I only said that because I want to see Iran free from religion. So my opinions are pretty biased and selfish. I won't lie.

Iranian pilots are not ahead of Indian pilots. Indian pilots seem to be winning the wargames between America and India. Maybe its their aircraft, maybe its pride or maybe its their skill. Also, Iran may or may not be able to use the F-14s due to lack of spares. Maybe very limited usage. I don't know where you got those kill-ratios from, but they seem very wild.

Yes, Iranians seem to love America, but tell that to many Americans. They'll be the first ones to volunteer and protect the Islamofascists that run Iran.

I also don't want us to attack Iran or any other country at the moment. We have aided Iran by getting rid of Saddam and Afghanistan's Taliban, we should not aid them anymore.

Does anyone really think the Iranians will not build a nuke if we don't attack them? If you really think so, Ahmadinejad will likely give you the key to the city.

I wasn't talking about pilot skills. Indian pilots haven't been in any recent wars to claim any high kill ratios.

U.S pilots averaged more kills each then Israel then Iran

U.S - Kosovo
Israel - Syria/Lebanon
Iran - Iraq

There was one Iranian pilot who claimed 8 aircraft and others countless more.

US pilots faced which great air force in Kosovo that leads us to believe their skills are superior?

I know that the US has the best air force in the world currently, but the example of Kosovo is totally irrelevent. The B-2 bomber however did prove that it was worth the cost.

Israel constantly uses its airforce to bomb stationary targets in Syria, Lebanon and other areas. What great air force has the Israeli air force faced? The non-moving targets on the ground?

Yes, I know that Israel also has highly trained pilots but this example was also totally useless.

The Iran/Iraq war is a better example, but I'm still not sure how that applies to today.

If you mention a recent conflict in which two large air forces battled each other, then that would be something else.

Your point about the Indian pilots is right, but I could use that same line for every other air force in the world including the US. We have not faced a major air force since the Luftwaffe and the Japanese. India and Pakistan do have yearly skirmishes. Like Kargil for example. Also, India and Pakistan have fought several wars, some recent, in which there was a air war. So Indian pilots do have kill ratios.

The Palestinians do not have an air force currently that I'm aware of. The Egyptians might pose a threat unless Israel destroys their runways and jets while they are sleeping like the old days.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: MegaWorks
The Neo-Cons and their supporters would be the biggest idiots if they decide to attack Iran.

Right. The only ones who want military action are conservatives. Got ya.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MegaWorks
The Neo-Cons and their supporters would be the biggest idiots if they decide to attack Iran.

Right. The only ones who want military action are conservatives. Got ya.

You praise and vote for your warmonger president and the no bid contract Military $$$$$$$$$$$ VP


 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: Aimster
Iran's country has been destroyed by religious fanatics.
The same idiots who destroyed the country run the military. I think their brains are the size of peanuts.

Therefore, let's send in some F-15s (hey our pilots need to have fun) and bomb Iran. Iran's F-14, F-4 pilots are pretty amazing, but their aircraft are old. Their kill-ratio is only beat by Israel, U.S.

The Bush administration requested 70 million for Iranian programs to help the Iranian people get rid of the regime. I wonder how they are going to use this money.

like the article said... attacking Iran would be nothing like attack Iraq. The consequences would be more severe.

I still think it is a risk the U.S should take (my opinion differs from almost all Iranians, but I speak for myself).

I only said that because I want to see Iran free from religion. So my opinions are pretty biased and selfish. I won't lie.

Iranian pilots are not ahead of Indian pilots. Indian pilots seem to be winning the wargames between America and India. Maybe its their aircraft, maybe its pride or maybe its their skill. Also, Iran may or may not be able to use the F-14s due to lack of spares. Maybe very limited usage. I don't know where you got those kill-ratios from, but they seem very wild.

Yes, Iranians seem to love America, but tell that to many Americans. They'll be the first ones to volunteer and protect the Islamofascists that run Iran.

I also don't want us to attack Iran or any other country at the moment. We have aided Iran by getting rid of Saddam and Afghanistan's Taliban, we should not aid them anymore.

Does anyone really think the Iranians will not build a nuke if we don't attack them? If you really think so, Ahmadinejad will likely give you the key to the city.

I wasn't talking about pilot skills. Indian pilots haven't been in any recent wars to claim any high kill ratios.

U.S pilots averaged more kills each then Israel then Iran

U.S - Kosovo
Israel - Syria/Lebanon
Iran - Iraq

There was one Iranian pilot who claimed 8 aircraft and others countless more.

US pilots faced which great air force in Kosovo that leads us to believe their skills are superior?

I know that the US has the best air force in the world currently, but the example of Kosovo is totally irrelevent. The B-2 bomber however did prove that it was worth the cost.

Israel constantly uses its airforce to bomb stationary targets in Syria, Lebanon and other areas. What great air force has the Israeli air force faced? The non-moving targets on the ground?

Yes, I know that Israel also has highly trained pilots but this example was also totally useless.

The Iran/Iraq war is a better example, but I'm still not sure how that applies to today.

If you mention a recent conflict in which two large air forces battled each other, then that would be something else.

Your point about the Indian pilots is right, but I could use that same line for every other air force in the world including the US. We have not faced a major air force since the Luftwaffe and the Japanese. India and Pakistan do have yearly skirmishes. Like Kargil for example. Also, India and Pakistan have fought several wars, some recent, in which there was a air war. So Indian pilots do have kill ratios.

The Palestinians do not have an air force currently that I'm aware of. The Egyptians might pose a threat unless Israel destroys their runways and jets while they are sleeping like the old days.

I didn't mean Iran's air force is a challenge for the U.S. Iranian F-14 pilots were all trained in the U.S for many years. They have the same training U.S F-14 pilots had and many years of air-air combat experiences.

That's why I said send in F-15s over F-22 so they could have some fun with them. The F-14 is an old design and would be good for dog fights, but those days are over.

Iran's F-14 program lives because of Russia. It is said Russia developed the Su-27 and so on from an F-14 design that Iran gave Russia in exchange for new engines, etc. F-14s will be no match for upgraded U.S aircraft that can lock on it before the F-14s can even see them on their radar. Isn't that the reason dog fights are obsolete now?

India's air force > U.S air force for dog fighting.
F15 is no match for an Su-27. (Eaglekeeper is going to be mad when he reads this)

However, if it was a real world situation where all you had to do was lock on your target from 50+ miles away and press a little red button things might be different. It would be a matter of tech vs tech. I don't know who (F15, Su-27) can lock on who first, maybe someone else or you know and could answer that.

Israeli pilots should go head-to-head with Saudi Arabia/Egyptian/UAE pilots in a simulated war.
 

OrganizedChaos

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2002
4,524
0
0
the only solution i can see is a nuclear first strike launched against Iran immediatly. if nothing changes in the next 20 years i think were going to have a second cold war only this time maybe not so cold. nuclear weapons are supose to be a deturrent(sp?). the idea is nobody moves first because neither side can survive the retaliation. when one side isn't afraid to die mutually assured self destrution dosen't work anymore.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Mmmm, no. It's not all roses if the U.S. does not attack.
It's an untenable situation either way.

You're right, they might still build nukes. But there is a difference between them "maybe" building a nuke (as of which there is no hard proof of), or them definitely building a nuke (which they would do as a response to unprovoked military attack).

Hypothetically, if both paths lead to them acquiring nuclear weapons, the path of non-agression would be much more beneficial for the American people, don't you think?

Yeah but you're assuming they'd actually build nukes if attacked; which is an assumption you cannot accurately make, but you are doing so to further your point of view.

So essentially, you are lying, or claiming to know something you cannot, in order to make a point.

Someone who thinks like that is difficult to take seriously.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
If you were the ruler of a country whom the strongest nation on earth labeled your whole country AS EVIL... Wouldn't you do whatever you could to proctect your people the agressive warmonger?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Frackal
Yeah but you're assuming they'd actually build nukes if attacked; which is an assumption you cannot accurately make, but you are doing so to further your point of view.

So you're saying we shouldn't assume they will build nukes?

That's great to hear. Another reason we shouldn't attack.
 

Slick50

Banned
Feb 16, 2006
158
0
0
Anyone have a spare Koran ?

I have to go to the restroom, and i use it as toilet paper!!!!!!!!!

Let them try to attack the west again, they will get creamed !!!!!!!
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
If you were the ruler of a country whom the strongest nation on earth labeled your whole country AS EVIL... Wouldn't you do whatever you could to proctect your people the agressive warmonger?

Yeah the Axis of Evil was a dumbshit move
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Frackal
Yeah but you're assuming they'd actually build nukes if attacked; which is an assumption you cannot accurately make, but you are doing so to further your point of view.

So you're saying we shouldn't assume they will build nukes?

That's great to hear. Another reason we shouldn't attack.


No;

You are claiming that if we attack, then they will definitely end up with nukes, which is a fallacious claim.
 
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