Iraq sacks 1,300 soldiers and policeman who refused to fight in Basra.

[techs]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

1,300 Iraqi troops, police dismissed

Iraq's government moved Sunday to restore discipline within the ranks of the security forces, sacking more than 1,300 soldiers and policemen who deserted during recent fighting against Shiite militias in Basra.

At the same time, Iraq's Cabinet ratcheted up the pressure on anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr by approving draft legislation barring political parties with militias from participating in upcoming provincial elections.

Al-Sadr, who heads the country's biggest militia, the Mahdi Army, has been under intense pressure from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, also a Shiite, to disband the Mahdi Army or face political isolation.

Al-Sadr's followers are eager to take part in the local elections because they believe they can take power away from rival Shiite parties in the vast, oil-rich Shiite heartland of southern Iraq.

And in a new move to stem the flow of money to armed groups, the government ordered a crackdown on militiamen controlling state-run and private gas stations, refineries and oil distribution centers.

It is believed that gas stations and distribution centers, especially in eastern Baghdad and some southern provinces, are covertly controlled by Shiite militiamen dominated by the Mahdi Army.

The failure of government forces to capture Basra despite superiority in numbers and firepower was an embarrassment to al-Maliki, who ordered the offensive and personally supervised it during the first week.

It also raised questions whether Iraq's mostly Shiite army and police can confront Shiite militias, including Iranian-backed "special groups," which the U.S. command now considers the greatest threat to Iraqi democracy with the diminishing influence of al-Qaida in Iraq.



So the much publiczed and publicly lauded by Bush "crackdown" by the Iraqis in Basra really turned out to be a debacle.
And now the government is fearful of the actual popular support for Al-Sadr by moving to have his party banned from elections.

Just another fun week in Iraq. You know, the place that's just like an Indiana mall on a Sunday.
Makes you wonder who would win in a three way between the French, the Army of the Republic of Viet Nam and the Iraqi army.

 

[Lemon law]

While I agree with many of the Techs points, it almost raises too many totally different questions to be contained in a single thread. But on the plus side, it helps us see Iraq as its really become, namely well entrenched insurgent groups squabbling among themselves while sucking the life out of Iraq like leeches. And Now Maliki backed by some groups battles Al Sadr while Iran hedges its bets and backs everyone.

Its the inevitable trend in any proto feudal state, smaller groups start merging or they get taken over by larger groups and larger groups squabble over what they can loot. And none of them want a central government as long as something protects them from external threats.

While some see these Maliki moves as progress, my fear is that its just the start of something akin to a mafia turf war with all the violence that comes with it. As Maliki tries to push Al Sadr into a corner that can only result in violence.

Meanwhile Petraeus is still analyzing the battle for Basra, and in a just in recent news flash, the Pentagon has finished its latest reanalysis of the battle of Gettyburg and still concludes Pickett's charge was stupid. As for where Iraq is going, everyone is clueless.

 

[JSt0rm]

the mods told me I'm not allowed to say what I said - lol

 

[nullzero]

1300 police dismissed police... wonder what they are going to do now? In other news Mahdi Army recruits 1300 new members in Basara..

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I just hope we have the balls to turn bush over for war crimes, maybe we can get him to turn over all of the evil people behind him.

:roll:

 

[dahunan]

I think the Sunni and Shiah are to blame for the aftermath in Iraq.. too bad they don't read their Quarans more often

 

[Aimster]

We are lucky the Iraqis dropped their guns and stayed home or the death count would be 10,000+

Therefore be glad they are cowards

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I just hope we have the balls to turn bush over for war crimes, maybe we can get him to turn over all of the evil people behind him.

:roll:

really?

your romantic notions of war are laughable. Somebody needs to be held accountable for this travesty.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Hmmmm....How did you determine that they are cowards?

How many did you interview and ask if it might have been some moral issue with what they perceived as the goals of the operation?

Some, or even all may in fact be cowards, but you do not know with any certainty. It seems that you are doing the same thing that GWB has made famous, namely making broad assumptions with few facts.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I just hope we have the balls to turn bush over for war crimes, maybe we can get him to turn over all of the evil people behind him.

:roll:

really?

your romantic notions of war are laughable. Somebody needs to be held accountable for this travesty.

my what!?

 

[JSt0rm]

-palehorse-
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell <--this is a romantic notion of war.

edit

my point is not to attack you personally. MANY people feel this way.

 

[Braznor]

This is a very positive move by the Iraqi govt.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Sunni and Shiah are to blame for the aftermath in Iraq.. too bad they don't read their Quarans more often

This is . . . like . . . um . . . 99.9% of the population of Iraq. Are you sure we can't blame everything on Al Qaeda? That would go over MUCH better with the neo-cons.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I just hope we have the balls to turn bush over for war crimes, maybe we can get him to turn over all of the evil people behind him.

:roll:

really?

your romantic notions of war are laughable. Somebody needs to be held accountable for this travesty.

my what!?

Seconded.

What war crimes? Sure its a stupid war, but theres nothing criminal about it. Romantic Notions of War? You sure have a romantic notion that Bush did anything that can get him impeached or anything.

 

[JSt0rm]

dont worry i wasn't allowed to say that so i deleted it. I'll just think it. Is that ok?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

From the article:

The failure of government forces to capture Basra despite superiority in numbers and firepower was an embarrassment to al-Maliki, who ordered the offensive and personally supervised it during the first week.

Does the reporter even know that Iraqi forces are still in Basra and now control it? Or is Moveon.org yanking the strings on their media puppets again?

Good move yet again by the Iraqi government. This exposed the Mahdi army infiltrators and sympathizers and now they've been canned. The Iraqi parliament continues to keep Sadr backed down when he knows he can't respond with any force because his militia would only get embarrassed once again and he'd lose even more street cred and power.

Buh bye Sadr. You've been checkmated.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
From the article:

The failure of government forces to capture Basra despite superiority in numbers and firepower was an embarrassment to al-Maliki, who ordered the offensive and personally supervised it during the first week.

Does the reporter even know that Iraqi forces are still in Basra and now control it? Or is Moveon.org yanking the strings on their media puppets again?

Good move yet again by the Iraqi government. This exposed the Mahdi army infiltrators and sympathizers and now they've been canned. The Iraqi parliament continues to keep Sadr backed down when he knows he can't respond with any force because his militia would only get embarrassed once again and he'd lose even more street cred and power.

Buh bye Sadr. You've been checkmated.

Yes, a failed operation that exposed the Iraqis government weakness and the weakness of its security forces is a good thing.
:disgust:

Do you REALLY believe what you post?

 

[JSt0rm]

Techs: this entire war has been built on wishful thinking. People won't stop that, not when they are this far down the rabbit hole. It would suck to actually be a supporter of this war, I mean how delusional can you get before you have to admit that you were wrong? Even then they won't admit they were wrong but that its the weakness around them that causes defeat

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
-palehorse-
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell <--this is a romantic notion of war.

edit

my point is not to attack you personally. MANY people feel this way.

I don't think that statement qualifies as a romantic notion. Orwell's statement is more in line with reality.

Romantic notions of war revolve around the honor and glory to be gained by fighting. Of course, as anyone who has fought will tell you, real fighting is anything but honorable or glorious.

 

[Lemon law]

The TLC version is---Good move yet again by the Iraqi government. This exposed the Mahdi army infiltrators and sympathizers and now they've been canned. The Iraqi parliament continues to keep Sadr backed down when he knows he can't respond with any force because his militia would only get embarrassed once again and he'd lose even more street cred and power.

Buh bye Sadr. You've been checkmated.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I very much doubt Al-Sadr has been checkmated since he is not even on the same game board Maliki is playing on. And while there is some doubt on the number of Mahdi army causalities, its certainly less than about 500 which is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the 60,000 estimated Al Sadr is assumed to have.

The game seems to be more about the upcoming October elections and the shifting factional alliances propping the Maliki government up. So far Al Sadr seems to be trying to avoid any confrontations as Maliki pushes ever deeper into what could turn into a trap, I am still struck by the incredible range of options Al Sadr has remaining.

As a chess player myself, I would have to say this current game is barely out of the opening. My guess is---its more Maliki who really risks being checkmated. And its Al Sadr that is playing the smarter game as Maliki rushes in playing the role of George Armstrong Custer splitting his forces as he goes. What may follow is Maliki's last stand while Al Sadr is far away attending to clerical matters.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Dman877

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
-palehorse-
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell <--this is a romantic notion of war.

edit

my point is not to attack you personally. MANY people feel this way.

I don't think that statement qualifies as a romantic notion. Orwell's statement is more in line with reality.

Romantic notions of war revolve around the honor and glory to be gained by fighting. Of course, as anyone who has fought will tell you, real fighting is anything but honorable or glorious.

what he said.

 

[Pabster]

Yes, OP, because 1,300 folks out of a country of over 25 million is an excellent representation of EVERYONE! :laugh:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The TLC version is---Good move yet again by the Iraqi government. This exposed the Mahdi army infiltrators and sympathizers and now they've been canned. The Iraqi parliament continues to keep Sadr backed down when he knows he can't respond with any force because his militia would only get embarrassed once again and he'd lose even more street cred and power.

Buh bye Sadr. You've been checkmated.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I very much doubt Al-Sadr has been checkmated since he is not even on the same game board Maliki is playing on. And while there is some doubt on the number of Mahdi army causalities, its certainly less than about 500 which is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the 60,000 estimated Al Sadr is assumed to have.

The game seems to be more about the upcoming October elections and the shifting factional alliances propping the Maliki government up. So far Al Sadr seems to be trying to avoid any confrontations as Maliki pushes ever deeper into what could turn into a trap, I am still struck by the incredible range of options Al Sadr has remaining.

As a chess player myself, I would have to say this current game is barely out of the opening. My guess is---its more Maliki who really risks being checkmated. And its Al Sadr that is playing the smarter game as Maliki rushes in playing the role of George Armstrong Custer splitting his forces as he goes. What may follow is Maliki's last stand while Al Sadr is far away attending to clerical matters.

So let me get this straight.

Despite Maliki now having control of Basra.

Despite the vast majority (not just a small majority, but a large majority) of Iraqi PMs who are backing a law against Sadr's militia.

Despite Mailiki still going after Sadr's militias and now attempting to wrest their control over portions of Baghdad.

Despite the fact that Maliki never agreed to Sadrs 9 point "peace treaty," which we all know was just a euphamism for "retreat." (Even if some don't want to publicly acknowledge that fact, for whatever reason.)

And despite the fact that having a personal militia controlling areas of a country and brutalizing the populace really doesn't mesh well with the whole democratic process.

You are still predicting that Sadr will come out smelling like roses and on top of this situation?

You'll have to excuse me if I haven't exactly found your previous pessimisms towards the Iraqi government and US in general to be prescient in any way, shape, or form. I doubt the result of this one will resemble anything close to what you claim either.

 

[Lemon law]

TLC, its you that is saying an AL Sadr checkmate is eminent. I am saying that its probably not going to happen anytime soon. And if its instead the Maliki government that falls, we will all know who is right. An outcome that may not require any AL Sadr violence to achieve.

And TLC, if you think Maliki is democratic or not up to his eyeballs in corruption, you must have missed 60 minutes tonight.
They were only mumbling about a 1/2 billion dollars looted by various ministries of Maliki's government. And Maliki himself forbidding any investigations into the matter as most of the investigators simply were murdered.

Please understand I don't think Al Sadr is any damn good either, I am simply saying he has more options and only needs to outlast Maliki.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
TLC, its you that is saying an AL Sadr checkmate is eminent. I am saying that its probably not going to happen anytime soon. And if its instead the Maliki government that falls, we will all know who is right. An outcome that may not require any AL Sadr violence to achieve.

And TLC, if you think Maliki is democratic or not up to his eyeballs in corruption, you must have missed 60 minutes tonight.
They were only mumbling about a 1/2 billion dollars looted by various ministries of Maliki's government. And Maliki himself forbidding any investigations into the matter as most of the investigators simply were murdered.

Please understand I don't think Al Sadr is any damn good either, I am simply saying he has more options and only needs to outlast Maliki.

I really don't care about Maliki. It's a democratic government and Maliki will be gone eventually.

My concern is about the democracy in Iraq. A democracy cannot thrive while radical clerics have their personal militias controlling territories. This was an issue that needed to be resolved long ago but was not possible to resolve until now.

Now it's being resolved.