Iraq War cost more than 2 trillion, interest payments payments could go to 6 trillion

[nehalem256]

No I was still correct, it doesn't have a direct economic benefit in any significant way. It has lots of indirect benefits, but of course that was never my argument. The only people who obtain direct economic benefits from war are those directly employed in war, which is an utterly small fraction of the total workforce and not worth noting as compared to voluminous direct economic benefits received from Medicare, Medicaid, SS, etc. that everyone is legally entitled to.

Please explain why paying a doctor to provide medical care for the poor is a "direct" economic benefit.

But paying a defense contractor to build a humvee isnt?

 

[nextJin]

Please explain why paying a doctor to provide medical care for the poor is a "direct" economic benefit.

But paying a defense contractor to build a humvee isnt?

Because the patient goes back to flipping burgers (net gain) and the Humvee (net loss) is blown up on a random MSR?

 

[Doppel]

Because the patient goes back to flipping burgers (net gain) and the Humvee (net loss) is blown up on a random MSR?

This.

It really does get back to the window fallacy. If war was a net gain for an economy every country on the planet would simply pick huge swathes of their territory and regularly blow thm up, bombing runs, artillery, mock invasions, etc. In this light you realize yeah that is a silly idea.

War can decrease unemployment and spur economy because it is funded by debt. Paying a firm a million bucks to build bombs and it employes US workers but you had to borrow a hundred and thirty million to pay it is a net economic cost.

 

[Incorruptible]

Thanks, Bush! You fuck.

And dont forget that piece of shit obama as well.

 

[Nintendesert]

If we didn't arm mad men with weapons, CIA intel and tactics we would not have an accomplishment to feel good about later when we take them down. :thumbsup:

The lesson is lost as we continue to arm the Syrians, Libyans and Egyptians and who knows who else. Iraq and Afghanistan taught us nothing, unless of course we're just lining up our next wars in 20-30 years to keep business going. :sneaky:

 

[Doppel]

The lesson is lost as we continue to arm the Syrians, Libyans and Egyptians and who knows who else. Iraq and Afghanistan taught us nothing, unless of course we're just lining up our next wars in 20-30 years to keep business going. :sneaky:

It is honestly a damn hard habit to kick. It is natural to see others at times as one sees oneself, so we imagine that oppressed people brutalized over many years, if we can help them out, they'll suddenly be freed and grateful. And yet that gratefulness is short lived because oh right I forgot, these people have been oppressed for years and are chronically Fed in the heads in many cases. And so a year later an americaen embassy is attacked in Libya and yet the only suspect arrested is not even accessible to US investigators at all.

 

[piasabird]

So how come we did not bring all the troops home from the middle east yet?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

This.

It really does get back to the window fallacy. If war was a net gain for an economy every country on the planet would simply pick huge swathes of their territory and regularly blow thm up, bombing runs, artillery, mock invasions, etc. In this light you realize yeah that is a silly idea.

War can decrease unemployment and spur economy because it is funded by debt. Paying a firm a million bucks to build bombs and it employes US workers but you had to borrow a hundred and thirty million to pay it is a net economic cost.

Another example of this fallacy which does not rely on war or military spending is China's government backed ghost cities. Essentially China's government is/was fueling its GDP by basically building massive ghost cities filled with no people. Their government is/was essentially fueling a massive housing and infrastructure bubble in its attempt to push and sustain empty GDP growth in a manner that has zero benefits for its populace, especially the poor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm7rOKT151Y

http://www.businessinsider.com/60-minutes-chinas-ghost-cities-2013-3

http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-pictures-of-chinese-ghost-cities-2013-3?op=1

 

[nextJin]

Another example of this fallacy which does not rely on war or military spending is China's ghost cities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm7rOKT151Y

http://www.businessinsider.com/60-minutes-chinas-ghost-cities-2013-3

http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-pictures-of-chinese-ghost-cities-2013-3?op=1

Yea that is going to bite them in the ass.

 

[Screech]

Another example of this fallacy which does not rely on war or military spending is China's government backed ghost cities. Essentially China's government is/was fueling its GDP by basically building massive ghost cities filled with no people. Their government is/was essentially fueling a massive housing and infrastructure bubble in its attempt to push and sustain empty GDP growth in a manner that has zero benefits for its populace, especially the poor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm7rOKT151Y

http://www.businessinsider.com/60-minutes-chinas-ghost-cities-2013-3

http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-pictures-of-chinese-ghost-cities-2013-3?op=1

Whoa, those are wild. Definitely top of my "TIL...." list.

 

[OutHouse]

Because the patient goes back to flipping burgers (net gain) and the Humvee (net loss) is blown up on a random MSR?

Cntractor builds a new hummer...

 

[nextJin]

Cntractor builds a new hummer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_fallacy

 

[nextJin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shawarma_(2223426004).jpg

 

[EagleKeeper]

You must be mistaken. The war paid for itself, just as the Bush administration said it would... right?

I thought the Democrats were the ones stating that we were going in for the oil.

Look at all the contracts that were let

 

[nehalem256]

Because the patient goes back to flipping burgers (net gain) and the Humvee (net loss) is blown up on a random MSR?

And do you think the corporate profits and employee wages just disappear into the ether?

And I mean 3 weeks ago weren't people crying that defense cuts were going to cripple the economy?

If you want to argue that there are better ways to spend the money than on defense you would be absolutely correct. But defense spending undeniably stimulates the economy.

 

[trenchfoot]

And do you think the corporate profits and employee wages just disappear into the ether?

And I mean 3 weeks ago weren't people crying that defense cuts were going to cripple the economy?

If you want to argue that there are better ways to spend the money than on defense you would be absolutely correct. But defense spending undeniably stimulates the economy.

This may be a bit unfair to bring up in your stance on this topic but IMO the missing component in this argument is the cost of human lives when we go to war. Profits and losses in $$$ pale miserably in comparison to the losses families and loved ones suffer when our military gets tossed into the meat grinder.

I'd much rather spend a dollar in preparedness than a dollar burying a friend or relative. A net gain, such as it is.

 

[nextJin]

And do you think the corporate profits and employee wages just disappear into the ether?

And I mean 3 weeks ago weren't people crying that defense cuts were going to cripple the economy?

If you want to argue that there are better ways to spend the money than on defense you would be absolutely correct. But defense spending undeniably stimulates the economy.

Goods and services are not flowing into our economy, they are flowing out. It's the same thing as saying the US government is taking a new initiative to create 500 million tires to throw away in the ocean.

If you didn't read the article posted I'd understand, it was fairly long.

 

[Attic]

The Iraq war was a horribly expensive mistake. I'm sure there are positives we can draw from it, though personally I don't think they were worth it unless something came of it that has been hidden from the media.

Lot of R and D agree. The partisan hackery abounds regardless. People ought to realize that whether it's needless expensive wars and/or horribly inefficient government out of control spending on itself and poor policy (both R and D again), the cost to us is serious.

Anyone want to figure what an extra 250Billion to schools systems a year would do? A measured amount of additional funds for community parks/centers? We don't get either while focus is on R vs D rather than vs R+D. The result from both parties is ultimately the same, wasted spending and more debt.

I don't see how anyone can expect better from D but not from R, nor from R but not from D. Both R and D rely on complicit members of the USA (voters and media) to continue their destruction of the USA through waste and short sighted solutions to long term issues.

Sometimes I really think if the media simply reversed the "R" and "D" entities from those they put on TV, that a number of folks would remain of the same party affiliation. If we could take those folks and figure out the reason why, we might have a decent starting point for getting change in Washington.

 

[Matt1970]

The Iraq war was a horribly expensive mistake. I'm sure there are positives we can draw from it, though personally I don't think they were worth it unless something came of it that has been hidden from the media.

We had to see for ourselves if we could occupy a nation like that and try and make things peaceful. We'll just ignore the fact that Russia had just tried it and failed in a country we are currently failing to occupy, but hey, maybe this time will be different. They are countries with virtually no border control surrounded by countries that hate us and we are fighting with forces that are known to hide in schools and religious structures. What could go wrong?

 

[nageov3t]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/14/iraq-war-anniversary-idUSL1N0C5FBN20130314

Just a reminder that conservatives want to actually invade Iran after this debacle. Want to really bankrupt the country? Vote for a GOP president next election. We'll have boots on the ground in Tehran before you know it.

who's calling for a ground invasion of Iran?

 

[werepossum]

who's calling for a ground invasion of Iran?

That would be liberals calling for a ground invasion of Iran, then shrieking "Did you hear the conservatives calling for a ground invasion of Iran?"

Two points. First, if anything Iraq has taught us that the domino affect is real, but in Muslim nations is unlikely to get a better result. Only in Iraq is the resulting government significantly less Anti-American than its predecessor, and that likely won't last.

Second, it's largely a fallacy of the left that we armed Saddam Hussein. Those familiar with his military know that only a tiny percentage of his kit came from America, principally some militarized utility & transport helicopters and replacement naval drive trains. The vast majority of his material was Soviet/Russian and former Soviet and French, with probably Germany taking the next largest chunk. The biggest aid we've ever given him was during the Iran-Iraq war and was simply satellite intelligence. It's debatable whether one should take sides when an evil snake fights a rabid rat, but it's at least arguably in our interests to prolong the fight.

 

[Texashiker]

Just a reminder that conservatives want to actually invade Iran after this debacle. Want to really bankrupt the country? Vote for a GOP president next election. We'll have boots on the ground in Tehran before you know it.

Just a reminder, the nation is already bankrupt.

 

[ericlp]

Hey we got the 9/11 terrorist saddam Hussein didn't we!?

Don't forget all the other good things that we got from invading Iraq!

Tell me again... What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

 

[Zorkorist]

Isn't that obvious? They are a Nation of Islam.

-John

 

[nextJin]

Tell me again... What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

I would imagine he was being sarcastic but wtf do I know it's P&N.