Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Discussion

[Deleted member 4644]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Humiliated, YES.

Tortured, NO.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd much rather be urinated on than have my fingers cut off.

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion. Sure, all of this is conduct unbecoming of a United States armed service man, but if you want to talk about REAL humiliation, let's talk about those soldiers and contract workers who were killed and dragged through the streets of Falujah. Now that was humiliation!

I'm sick and tired off all these liberal whiners, crying over this spilt milk. Thanks to the liberals, this country is turning into a bunch of PC pu$$ies. It's time we woke up and grew a pair!

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

1) WTF edit: If you don't think rape and forced masturbation onto other prisoners is torture, you need a psych eval.

2) They started it?

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: tallest1
You bush-apologists have gone to a new low, seriously. By what you're saying, we could poison an entire city with chemical weapons and then argue that Sadaam would have done worse. THAT IS PLAIN SICK! :|

This is NOT a game of revenge. The US is NEVER EVER supposed to do barbaric acts such as the ones reported and while yes, the Iraqis certainly have shown their share of insanity, it NEVER EVER justifies what we have done. And now you want to downplay this whole thing by saying "But nooooo its not 'torture'"? BULLSHIT! How many times are you people going to quit pulling out the dictionaries? You've already come crying to us over the meaning of words like , 'deficit', 'job recovery', 'lie' and 'WMD' to fit your agenda AND I REFUSE TO ADD "TORTURE" TO YOUR LIST OF REDEFINITIONS. Your viewpoint is plain sick and yes, unamerican. I'm ashamed you even marginally endorse such actions. :|

I predict this post will be followed by some baseless insults to your intelligence as a way to divert attention from the point you made. Or maybe Clinton will some how be blamed for all of this. I'm not sure yet.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Humiliated, YES.

Tortured, NO.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd much rather be urinated on than have my fingers cut off.

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion. Sure, all of this is conduct unbecoming of a United States armed service man, but if you want to talk about REAL humiliation, let's talk about those soldiers and contract workers who were killed and dragged through the streets of Falujah. Now that was humiliation!

I'm sick and tired off all these liberal whiners, crying over this spilt milk. Thanks to the liberals, this country is turning into a bunch of PC pu$$ies. It's time we woke up and grew a pair!

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

Liberal whiners eh? How do you like it if someone roundup all the women you know, your mama, your girlfriend/wife/daughter/relatives, force them to take their cloth off, simulate sex with each other, take photos of them and distribute those photos as souvenir?

That's all good and legal right? last time I checked, you don't go to jail for humiliating people.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

As far as military prisons and interrogations go of pows...#1 is a standard practice and isn't considered torture. #2 is rape and that is definitely torture. It should have no place anywhere in any prison under any circumstances. #3 is just a threat. If it were carried out, then it would be torture, but as far as I've seen in the news reports it was just that...threats. #4 is a judgement call. It depends on the level and severity. #5 is terrible, but again...not torture. Anyway, my point is that some of these charges are trumped up. Others, such as the broomstick or the humiliation in those pictures we've been seeing are just as serious as the media clames to be in those cases, although they are not widespread. It'll be interesting to see who finally holds the bag for this and how it will effect our efforts in Iraq over the long term. It has only been a short while since this news was released.

 

[kage69]

The problem is the need to have to compare the abuse, and then qualify it with "they are full of sh!t" etc. In fact, I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your regret for these actions. You attempted to mitigate them though by trying to one up them with Saddam's treatment.

Winston, you are wrong. Unfortunetly, when one attempts to call bullsh!t on a statement concerning comparison, comparing the particulars is indeed necessary. I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO MITIGATE ANYTHING. Please refer to my previous posts in this forum if you truely think I am somehow trying to assist the neocons in their "talking about this only helps the enemy" agenda.
It's quite easy, here I'll show you: which sounds worse, being threatened by a dog, or being torn limb from limb by several? Do you honestly consider a bath in nitric acid preferable to a cold water shower? I have no problem calling you or anyone else 'full of sh1t' if yes was the answer. That's what this is about, understand?

In effect what you said is much like "Well, he's a nice guy BUT". For purposes of understanding what follows in that statement, disregard everything before "but". Kicking someone four times may indeed be preferable to kicking the five, but does saying that being kicked one less time is a real improvement? I think not.

This is irrelevent. I articulated how I believe the treatment under Sadaam was worse, and provided examples. I am not responsible for your inferences.

No this is an ugly event which needs no mitigation. It needs to be used as a reminder that good people can do bad things, and it is the responsibility of the institutions in charge to correct things in order to prevent what is otherwise an inevitably recurring problem. We cannot afford to take the attitude of "This is an isolated case" yet again.

Agreed. By not exposing this behavior as wrong and punishing accordingly, we would only be encouraging it to happen again. This however, doesn't apply to the statement to which I was posting about...

 

[Rilescat]

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Welcome to college life.

 

[kage69]

Welcome to college life.

:laugh:

Is your alma mater in Georgia by any chance?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Let's keep your personal life out of this discussion...

AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I've never posted a "lol" reply before, but that was sublime.

Torture of towel heads is Teh Funnay!

MOTION TO BAN FOR THIS STATEMENT

Moron :|

This forum is a bit more complex in its interaction than OT. Well, much more so. You would best serve yourself by reading the posts of people and see where they stand on issues before you reply to any particular snippet. Things tend to be rougher here to be sure, and the matters addressed of greater significance than the YAGT threads. I frequent both forums, and reply appropriately in each as they are different animals, so to speak.

Just a friendly FYI, because I won't rip into you for this, but others might and that leads into the inevitable flame fest. That happens anyway, but at least there are some points between some flames. Again, this is not OT.

Relax, and have a

:beer:

Check the threads I post in. Hardly YAGT material, I can assure you.

I fail to see a worthy explaination above, so if you wish to 'rip into me', please feel free to try. You may find this a little more difficult than your ego seems to think it will be.

/Patronising :beer: icon

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Let's keep your personal life out of this discussion...

AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I've never posted a "lol" reply before, but that was sublime.

Torture of towel heads is Teh Funnay!

MOTION TO BAN FOR THIS STATEMENT

Moron :|

This forum is a bit more complex in its interaction than OT. Well, much more so. You would best serve yourself by reading the posts of people and see where they stand on issues before you reply to any particular snippet. Things tend to be rougher here to be sure, and the matters addressed of greater significance than the YAGT threads. I frequent both forums, and reply appropriately in each as they are different animals, so to speak.

Just a friendly FYI, because I won't rip into you for this, but others might and that leads into the inevitable flame fest. That happens anyway, but at least there are some points between some flames. Again, this is not OT.

Relax, and have a

:beer:

Check the threads I post in. Hardly YAGT material, I can assure you.

I fail to see a worthy explaination above, so if you wish to 'rip into me', please feel free to try. You may find this a little more difficult than your ego seems to think it will be.

/Patronising :beer: icon

Your answer is coming up in a new thread.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Let's keep your personal life out of this discussion...

AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I've never posted a "lol" reply before, but that was sublime.

Torture of towel heads is Teh Funnay!

MOTION TO BAN FOR THIS STATEMENT

Moron :|

This forum is a bit more complex in its interaction than OT. Well, much more so. You would best serve yourself by reading the posts of people and see where they stand on issues before you reply to any particular snippet. Things tend to be rougher here to be sure, and the matters addressed of greater significance than the YAGT threads. I frequent both forums, and reply appropriately in each as they are different animals, so to speak.

Just a friendly FYI, because I won't rip into you for this, but others might and that leads into the inevitable flame fest. That happens anyway, but at least there are some points between some flames. Again, this is not OT.

Relax, and have a

:beer:

Check the threads I post in. Hardly YAGT material, I can assure you.

I fail to see a worthy explaination above, so if you wish to 'rip into me', please feel free to try. You may find this a little more difficult than your ego seems to think it will be.

/Patronising :beer: icon

Your answer is coming up in a new thread.

Yeah, ethnic epithets are acceptable when they're done sarcastically, right? You went too far with that statement and it belies your immaturity, whatever your age.

 

My question is, why is it okay to kill Iraqis but not okay to torture them?

Makes no sense to me.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: dwell
My question is, why is it okay to kill Iraqis but not okay to torture them?

Makes no sense to me.

Swap the parties involved....does it make more sense now?

Convention (III) relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949

 

I know all about the Geneva Convention, still, from a strictly moral standpoint, why do only the most die-hard liberals seem to care about killing the enemy but almost everyone is up in arms over torturing (humiliating) them?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Let's keep your personal life out of this discussion...

AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, I've never posted a "lol" reply before, but that was sublime.

Torture of towel heads is Teh Funnay!

MOTION TO BAN FOR THIS STATEMENT

Moron :|

This forum is a bit more complex in its interaction than OT. Well, much more so. You would best serve yourself by reading the posts of people and see where they stand on issues before you reply to any particular snippet. Things tend to be rougher here to be sure, and the matters addressed of greater significance than the YAGT threads. I frequent both forums, and reply appropriately in each as they are different animals, so to speak.

Just a friendly FYI, because I won't rip into you for this, but others might and that leads into the inevitable flame fest. That happens anyway, but at least there are some points between some flames. Again, this is not OT.

Relax, and have a

:beer:

Check the threads I post in. Hardly YAGT material, I can assure you.

I fail to see a worthy explaination above, so if you wish to 'rip into me', please feel free to try. You may find this a little more difficult than your ego seems to think it will be.

/Patronising :beer: icon

Your answer is coming up in a new thread.

Yeah, ethnic epithets are acceptable when they're done sarcastically, right? You went too far with that statement and it belies your immaturity, whatever your age.

Actually I responded to your post and others above mine. It was just about as funny as yours. Perhaps I got called on being facetious, but others mean it. I will leave it for others who see what happened to judge. As for you, put down the stone.

 

[Stunt]

yes it is wrong to torture them...is it ok for iraqi's to torture americans they find?
morally we should be setting the standard, prove that was are more civilized.
tell me why they are the enemy anyways?...the ppl resisting at the mosment arent saddam ppl...they just dont want to be occupied by americans.
any person the US puts in there is going to be hated/killed, hand over the country and leave.
let them rule themselves and dont make them pay for ur invasion with their oil...dumbest idea i have ever heard

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Quickly, it was pointed out to me that I should have thought to use the emoticon on my offending post. My failing to do so caused considerable confusion, and was not necessary. I should have thought to do that.

If this results in a ban, then I have had a good time here. Keep the faith.

If not, then you will have to put up with me


Let those who judge do so now. I am content.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: dwell
I know all about the Geneva Convention, still, from a strictly moral standpoint, why do only the most die-hard liberals seem to care about killing the enemy but almost everyone is up in arms over torturing (humiliating) them?

I don't understand your point about die-hard liberals however, I would assume most people can recognise that torturing and the humiliation of POWs is morally wrong. Simply placing your nephew or son in the place of the prisoner should illustrate why.

 

[chess9]

GTaudiophile:

Hey, I agree, we have way too many wusses in this country. The "Wuss Factor" is up by an order of magnitude or more since I was a kid.

But, you know, I have one, isty bitsy teeny weenie problem. What kind of man tortures a prisoner? Is that a man or a mouse. Now, if it had been pistols at 20 paces, or numchuks to the death, yeah, that is manly. But, making an 80 year old woman crawl around on all fours while some "MAN" rides her is simply more evidience of the WUSSIFICATION OF AMERICA. Yes, you have it backwards. Your father needs a spanking for not teaching you better.

-Robert

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: chess9
Now, if it had been pistols at 20 paces, or numchuks to the death, yeah, that is manly.

These guys are hiding behind women and children and taking pot shots from inside mosques...you really think they're the type that's gonna want a fair fight?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: chess9
Now, if it had been pistols at 20 paces, or numchuks to the death, yeah, that is manly.

These guys are hiding behind women and children and taking pot shots from inside mosques...you really think they're the type that's gonna want a fair fight?

Anyone who seeks a fair fight is a damn fool. If any general in the US military ever said he was looking for a fair fight I would hope he would be relieved.

 

[dbk]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

You didn't read the army report did you? Do beatings, rape, sodomy count as torture to you?

Yes, the latter do. No, I didn't read it. I'm going off the pictures I have seen or heard discussed on the news. I've only heard of what I said: forced simulated sex acts, urination, humiliation, wearing women's underwear, etc.

Ah...so...you spouted off in ignorance.

Gotcha.

Well, maybe the media needs to get off of the sexual sensationalism and report everything...

Another example of the media not reporting everything.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/04/iraq.abuse/index.html

Threatening with a 9 mm pistol.

Humiliation, not torture

Pouring cold water on naked detainees.

Okay, this might be torture

Threatening males with rape.

Humiliation, not torture

Beating with a broom handle and a chair.

Okay, this might be torture

Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

Okay, this might be torture

Threatening with military dogs.

Humiliation, not torture

Attaching wires to extremities, including the penis.

Okay, this might be torture

Accusing prisoners of being homosexual.

Humiliation, not torture

Forcing detainees into compromising positions while naked.

Humiliation, not torture

At least 2 investigations

so what's your point?? are you defending these soldiers??

 

[civad]

Obviously the original poster doesn't know what the Geneva Convention is...

 

[Stunt]

well next time someone invades the US, see how many women and children get in the way.
the US brought this on themselves, the iraqis are defending their country, they are not hiding behind women and children, but defending their country from invaders. What do you want them to do, move to uninhabited areas and go up against US military...right.

 

[chess9]

HOP:

Those guys were in a prison. They weren't hiding anywhere. Your point is complete nonsense. Furthermore, you appear to have entirely missed the point. Real men don't beat or torture prisoners. Only homicidal, sick, twisted, soul less bastages do that sort of thing.

As for what they do in actual combat, that is another story. They are basically fighting an enormously superior army with 1980's weapons, so they will do what it takes. That's what the Vietcong and Mujahadeen did quite effectively. We can never "win" there. Yes, we can subjugate a people, but so frigging what? If roles were reversed and they were here with their superior army what do you think you'd be doing? [expletives deleted]

-Robert

 

[Deadtrees]

Umm...
Would you mind if I HUMILIATED you?

Get it straight. Humiliation is a subcatagory of a torture.