Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Discussion

[ZombieJesus]

It was torture as has been clearly explained by others posting here. I don't really think this has anything to do with Bush or the government. It has to do with the individuals in charge of that prison; they have been caught and need to be punished accordingly for their crimes. It is no ones fault but their own and judging by the scandal this has created they will face appropriate consequences.

 

[skyking]

I agree up to a point, but it had to be a severe breakdown in communications to allow such a thing to pass, when the negative impacts are so obvious. This needs to be rooted out as high up the chain of command as possible, to prevent this from happening again.

 

[Ozoned]

I Think that this is important, but with so many threads on the subject I am not sure which one to post it in, so I guess I should post it in all of them...Well here goes,,,,,,,,,


Link



General Blames Abuse on Poor Leadership
General Says No Plan to Shut Iraq Prison, Blames Abuse on Poor Leadership and Disregard of Rules

The Associated Press



BAGHDAD, Iraq May 8, 2004 ? The head of U.S. detention centers in Iraq said Saturday the military has no plans to close the Abu Ghraib prison and blamed the abuse of detainees there on poor leadership and disregard for the rules.
Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller said the United States does intend to cut the number of prisoners to help improve conditions but added that "we will continue to conduct interrogation missions at the Abu Ghraib facility."





Miller was named head of prisons in April after Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib, was suspended amid allegations of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers at the prison.

Six prison guards are facing criminal charges for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisonerss, and one has already been charged.

President Bush vowed Saturday that "we will learn all the facts and determine the full extent of these abuses. Those involved will be identified. They will answer for their actions."

Bush said all prison operations in Iraq will be reviewed "to make certain that similar disgraceful incidents are never repeated."

Miller said he visited all 14 prison facilities in Iraq to review procedures and that an Army team of 31 specialists was in the country retraining prison guards, a process that would last until June 30.

"We will ensure that we follow our procedures," he said. "It is a matter of honor. We were ashamed and embarrassed by the conduct of a very, very small number of our soldiers...On my honor, I will ensure that it will not happen again."

Miller said the "alleged abuses and abuses we have discovered from the investigations appear to be due to leaders and soldiers not following the authorized policy and lack of leadership and supervision."

Miller insisted that Iraqi prisoners were now being treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and that interrogation teams were following Army guidelines while trying to get "the best intelligence as rapidly as possible."

"I am satisfied that that system is following the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and assisting the coalition in providing actionable intelligence to help us win this fight for the freedom of Iraq," he said.

He said earlier in the week that he would halt or restrict some interrogation methods, especially eight to 10 "very aggressive techniques," including using hoods on prisoners, putting them in stressful positions and depriving them of sleep. He said those methods are now banned without specific approval.

Miller said there were no plans to close Abu Ghraib and that if orders are received to close the lockup, the military would probably shift the mission to another facility, Camp Bucca, south of Basra. Abu Ghraib was a notorious prison under Saddam Hussein where detainees were routinely tortured and sometimes executed.

Miller, the former commander of the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, led a 30-member team to Iraq in August and September that focused on ways of sharpening interrogation procedures.

In a report on the Abu Ghraib scandal, Maj. Gen. Anthony Taguba wrote that the team recommended "that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees."

Some military police at the prison have said they were instructed to "soften up" the prisoners before interrogation.

"There was no recommendation ever by this group ... that recommended that the military police become actively involved in the interrogation," Miller said.

Miller said he recommended that guards should monitor prisoners closely and pass on information to interrogators.

Military police "should be involved in passive intelligence collection," Miller said.

One of the soldiers facing charges, Spc. Sabrina Harman, said she and other members of the 372nd Military Police Company took direction from Army military intelligence officers, CIA operatives and from civilian contractors who conducted interrogations.

In an interview by e-mail from Baghdad, Harman told The Washington Post it was made clear that her mission was to break down the prisoners.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed," Harman said. "The job of the MP was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk."

Harman, 26, is one of two smiling soldiers seen in a photo taken at Abu Ghraib as they stand behind naked, hooded Iraqi prisoners stacked in a pyramid.

Miller said that in part he used his experience at Guantanamo to help reshape the interrogation process.

Miller has said that by the end of his stint at Guantanamo in March, intelligence tips had increased dramatically and that about three-quarters of the 600 detainees had confessed to some involvement in terrorism and many had exposed former friends. The detainees there were largely suspected of ties to the Taliban or the al-Qaida terror network.

Miller said he had a "high level of confidence" that proper procedures were now being implemented in Iraq.

"We may make honest mistakes ... but there will be no mistakes of moral turpitude," he said.


photo credit and caption: A U.S. Army military policeman leads a group of fresh detainees for interrogation inside the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq Saturday, May 8, 2004. American soldiers now at the prison arrived months after photos were taken showing prisoner abuse in late 2003.(AP Photo/John Moore)

 

[busmaster11]

Love the way GT leaves just as his cocky redneck pride shoot from the hip bullcrap was being pummeled... But don't let reason get in your way - please continue spewing. it certainly doesn't bother the prez, or rummy for that matter.

The longer you support this farce, the more you embarrass yourself in the long run - and the more you hurt our country.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: busmaster11
The longer you support this farce, the more you embarrass yourself in the long run - and the more you hurt our country.

Ah...so to be a TRUE patriot like you we need to automatically assume and immediatly dismiss any evidence or reasoning to the contrary that the President and everyone in his cabinet are liars? For now, I'll choose to believe that this board is fully of petty partisan fools, thank you very much.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Format C:

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: Format C:
The saddest part of all of this is that while all the liberals and dems are having a screaming heydey playing politics with this issue, among many others, and blowing it completely out of all rational proportion they've not stopped to consider the full ramifications of their actions. After all of this hullabaloo, when given the sometimes split-second choice of kill or capture for interrogation, which do you think the troops will be more inclined to do? Now, feel free to carry on with all your hand wringing and frothing at the mouth if you wish. Know though that you're contributing to the death of more Iraqis with each outrageous assertion. Oh how distraught and full of angst I'm sure you'll all be when the new death tolls start rolling in. No doubt you'll rant and rave and wring your hands once more and curse Bush and the evil American military but we'll all know who's really to blame won't we?

You seem to be assuming that our GIs are either so stupid, or so badly trained, that they will make snap decisions to murder surrendering troops rather than capturing them as POWs (which may or may not be "for interrogation"). (And make no mistake, it is murder to kill surrendering troops.) Trust me, all American troops are well-trained on the law of war and rules of engagement (I have given this kind of training many times), and for the most part they are more than smart enough to understand.

This kind of sentiment (that is, one which appears oriented toward defending Americans and their behavior, whatever it might be) is incredibly dangerous and stupid IMO. As I said above, if we are going to engage in offensive attacks against other countries on the basis that their governments are brutal and oppressive, we can't be brutal and oppressive ourselves. Otherwise we just look like corrupt policemen.

You wrung all of that out of my perfectly clear and concise statements did you? Why does that not surprise me? Morphing a simple matter into a cataclysmic event seems to be all the rage these days.

Okay, elaborate for me. It seems clear to me that the entire point of your post was to somehow argue that the attention paid to the torture of Iraqi prisoners would foreseeably lead to the murder of surrenduring Iraqi troops. If that sounds stupid to you, well, I agree. If this isn't what you meant, then explain yourself more clearly, because your statements are anything but "clear and concise."

 

[Format C:]

Ummm, no. I won't do your homework for you either.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: busmaster11
The longer you support this farce, the more you embarrass yourself in the long run - and the more you hurt our country.

Ah...so to be a TRUE patriot like you we need to automatically assume and immediatly dismiss any evidence or reasoning to the contrary that the President and everyone in his cabinet are liars? For now, I'll choose to believe that this board is fully of petty partisan fools, thank you very much.

No, but to be a patriot interested in the good of your country it helps to have a little objectivity - it helps you to see that this regime deserves more criticism than praise for the way it is handling foreign affairs.

As for partisanship, sure - I'll buy that. But your posting record doesn't seem to indicate you've chosen the high road either.

 

[Crimson]

What I would like to know is there is the Muslim outrage for the way Saddam Hussein treated 100's of thousands of Iraqi Prisoners? Its not there, because they are hypocrits.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Crimson
What I would like to know is there is the Muslim outrage for the way Saddam Hussein treated 100's of thousands of Iraqi Prisoners? Its not there, because they are hypocrits.

the Arab world, and the world at large for that matter, expected no less from Saddam. However, Americans regard themselves and apply themselves to much different standards. Thus we get judged as such.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Crimson
What I would like to know is there is the Muslim outrage for the way Saddam Hussein treated 100's of thousands of Iraqi Prisoners? Its not there, because they are hypocrits.

If you're not 14 or under, you need to stop yourself, and start reading some books before you embarass yourself further.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Crimson
What I would like to know is there is the Muslim outrage for the way Saddam Hussein treated 100's of thousands of Iraqi Prisoners? Its not there, because they are hypocrits.

If you're not 14 or under, you need to stop yourself, and start reading some books before you embarass yourself further.

Too late...he's beyond help.

 

[NeoV]

This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: NeoV
This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

I want to know why we are held to a higher standard than any other nation or country. We have ADMITTED that the treatment of the Prisoners was wrong, and we are dealing with it. We are holding those responsible accountable for their actions. NOBODY ELSE IS HOLDING ANYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.. And it pisses me off.

How can we make up for our troops actions in Iraq to make you libs happy? Pull of out Iraq, and watch thousands die in civil war, and get blames for that.. Stay there, and get blamed for everything bad that happens? Punish our troops involved, we STILL get reamed for it, NOT hold them responsible and we would get reamed for it. WHAT CAN WE DO? Whats done has been done, we can't take it back. What we can do is punish those involved, which we are in the process of doing.. however nobody else is holding anyone responsible for THEIR actions in Iraq.. EXCEPT FOR US..

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Crimson
What I would like to know is there is the Muslim outrage for the way Saddam Hussein treated 100's of thousands of Iraqi Prisoners? Its not there, because they are hypocrits.

If you're not 14 or under, you need to stop yourself, and start reading some books before you embarass yourself further.

Too late...he's beyond help.

Just once Conjur I want to see you respond to something without insulting someone's intelligence... guess you are beyond help too.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Stunt
yes it is wrong to torture them...is it ok for iraqi's to torture americans they find?
morally we should be setting the standard, prove that was are more civilized.
tell me why they are the enemy anyways?...the ppl resisting at the mosment arent saddam ppl...they just dont want to be occupied by americans.
any person the US puts in there is going to be hated/killed, hand over the country and leave.
let them rule themselves and dont make them pay for ur invasion with their oil...dumbest idea i have ever heard

This is total BS. Iraqis have treated POWs basically pretty decent. Read Jessica Lynchs book or account. Or this. A bullet wound received at the time of Hamill's capture had been treated surgically, the wound was cleaned on a daily basis, and Hamill had been given antibiotics, the doctor said. Hamill said that while he was moved frequently, he was not beaten or mistreated after his capture.

Now Saddam OTOH is a different story, but he's gone now.

 

[tallest1]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Stunt
yes it is wrong to torture them...is it ok for iraqi's to torture americans they find?
morally we should be setting the standard, prove that was are more civilized.
tell me why they are the enemy anyways?...the ppl resisting at the mosment arent saddam ppl...they just dont want to be occupied by americans.
any person the US puts in there is going to be hated/killed, hand over the country and leave.
let them rule themselves and dont make them pay for ur invasion with their oil...dumbest idea i have ever heard

This is total BS. Iraqis have treated POWs basically pretty decent. Read Jessica Lynchs book or account. Or this. A bullet wound received at the time of Hamill's capture had been treated surgically, the wound was cleaned on a daily basis, and Hamill had been given antibiotics, the doctor said. Hamill said that while he was moved frequently, he was not beaten or mistreated after his capture.

Now Saddam OTOH is a different story, but he's gone now.

I can bet ya that captured Americans will never be treated like that again.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Crimson

I want to know why we are held to a higher standard than any other nation or country. We have ADMITTED that the treatment of the Prisoners was wrong, and we are dealing with it. We are holding those responsible accountable for their actions. NOBODY ELSE IS HOLDING ANYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.. And it pisses me off.

How can we make up for our troops actions in Iraq to make you libs happy? Pull of out Iraq, and watch thousands die in civil war, and get blames for that.. Stay there, and get blamed for everything bad that happens? Punish our troops involved, we STILL get reamed for it, NOT hold them responsible and we would get reamed for it. WHAT CAN WE DO? Whats done has been done, we can't take it back. What we can do is punish those involved, which we are in the process of doing.. however nobody else is holding anyone responsible for THEIR actions in Iraq.. EXCEPT FOR US..

This is an easy one IMO. The war in Iraq is a unique creature in American history, and that's something people need to understand. This is the first military action in which we have attacked another country in an anticipatory defense action, on the theory that they posed a threat to the US (which frankly now seems inaccurate). Even Vietnam involved an effort to prop up an existing government - Operation Iraqi Freedom was, doctrinally and practically speaking, an offensive attack.

Since it's now clear that there were never any WMDs in Iraq, and there was never any reliable intel saying there were, the sole plausible rationale for this war is that we were acting to liberate the Iraqi people from the brutal tyranny of Suddam Hussein (and I am not pooh-poohing that - he clearly was an evil and murderous dictator). Effectively, through our actions, we have become the Regime Police, and have declared that we are fit to judge which regimes should stand and which should fall. Like any police organization, this subjects us to a higher standard of behavior, because, if we are going to kill thousands of people in the context of toppling another country's government, we have to be better than the toppled regime. If we are going to preach the merits of democracy and freedom, we have to exemplify them or we are nothing but brutal hypocrits.

As for what we can do to correct what has already happened, well, it will be impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't know that it is possible to restore goodwill and have credibility with the Iraqis or our Arab partners. This is why it was paramount to avoid committing these abuses in the first place. One wonders whether this could have been prevented by sending a larger, better-trained force to Iraq, since by all accounts many of the MPs at the prison had little to no training. That said, they are individually responsible for their actions - every GI is trained on the law of war, and knows or should know it is illegal to torture or humiliate prisoners of war.

It seems to me that the most appropriate gesture would be for President Bush to enact a real shakeup in DOD leadership, since it seems very clear that he was not informed as to what was going on until far too late, and to be completely open with the press and the rest of the world about taking steps to punish everyone responsible, up to and including commanders and civilian leadership at high levels if necessary. IMO he also needs to demonstrate greater sensitivity to international concerns and greater respect to foreign leaders. Operation Iraqi Freedom drew near-universal scorn from foreign leaders, and I can't help but think our experiences since the war was "won" more than a year ago have borne out their concerns.

As for your frustration with the fact that "nobody is being held responsible for the murders of tens of thousands of people," I'm not sure who you're talking about. I think it's safe to say that Saddam Hussein will be tried in a war crimes tribunal, and probably also prosecuted by whatever government the Iraqis implement (which will have the benefit of the availability of the death penalty, something the UN war crimes tribunals don't use).

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: NeoV
This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

I want to know why we are held to a higher standard than any other nation or country. We have ADMITTED that the treatment of the Prisoners was wrong, and we are dealing with it. We are holding those responsible accountable for their actions. NOBODY ELSE IS HOLDING ANYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.. And it pisses me off.

How can we make up for our troops actions in Iraq to make you libs happy? Pull of out Iraq, and watch thousands die in civil war, and get blames for that.. Stay there, and get blamed for everything bad that happens? Punish our troops involved, we STILL get reamed for it, NOT hold them responsible and we would get reamed for it. WHAT CAN WE DO? Whats done has been done, we can't take it back. What we can do is punish those involved, which we are in the process of doing.. however nobody else is holding anyone responsible for THEIR actions in Iraq.. EXCEPT FOR US..

You can always chose to spew and retreat and ignore logical arguments, or you can chose to rehash the same old tired shoot-from-the-hip arrogance here. It doesn't matter.

You and many of the neo-cons here continue to use the same immature argument - bad precedences justify current behavior. And you just need to grow up.

THIS IS WHAT WE CAN DO: The US needs to acknowledge that their arrogance is unChristlike and leads only to more evil and destruction, and offer a genuine policy change away from the arrogance and preemptive philosophies, and they offer authority to a LEGITIMATE authority such as the UN.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: NeoV
This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

I want to know why we are held to a higher standard than any other nation or country. We have ADMITTED that the treatment of the Prisoners was wrong, and we are dealing with it. We are holding those responsible accountable for their actions. NOBODY ELSE IS HOLDING ANYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.. And it pisses me off.

How can we make up for our troops actions in Iraq to make you libs happy? Pull of out Iraq, and watch thousands die in civil war, and get blames for that.. Stay there, and get blamed for everything bad that happens? Punish our troops involved, we STILL get reamed for it, NOT hold them responsible and we would get reamed for it. WHAT CAN WE DO? Whats done has been done, we can't take it back. What we can do is punish those involved, which we are in the process of doing.. however nobody else is holding anyone responsible for THEIR actions in Iraq.. EXCEPT FOR US..

You can always chose to spew and retreat and ignore logical arguments, or you can chose to rehash the same old tired shoot-from-the-hip arrogance here. It doesn't matter.

You and many of the neo-cons here continue to use the same immature argument - bad precedences justify current behavior. And you just need to grow up.

THIS IS WHAT WE CAN DO: The US needs to acknowledge that their arrogance is unChristlike and leads only to more evil and destruction, and offer a genuine policy change away from the arrogance and preemptive philosophies, and they offer authority to a LEGITIMATE authority such as the UN.

You're so naive and uninformed that it's laughable.

 

[tallest1]

Don Vito, you might want to change the "Since it's now clear that there were never any WMDs in Iraq" phrase on your last post or else the neocons here are going to attack those words and completely ignore the point you're conveying. Sad but true

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: tallest1
Don Vito, you might want to change the "Since it's now clear that there were never any WMDs in Iraq" phrase on your last post or else the neocons here are going to attack those words and completely ignore the point you're conveying. Sad but true

Thanks, but I am comfortable with it as-is. Of course I understand that Iraq has had chemical and biological weapons in the past, but it clearly didn't when OIF started.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: NeoV
This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

I want to know why we are held to a higher standard than any other nation or country. We have ADMITTED that the treatment of the Prisoners was wrong, and we are dealing with it. We are holding those responsible accountable for their actions. NOBODY ELSE IS HOLDING ANYONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.. And it pisses me off.

How can we make up for our troops actions in Iraq to make you libs happy? Pull of out Iraq, and watch thousands die in civil war, and get blames for that.. Stay there, and get blamed for everything bad that happens? Punish our troops involved, we STILL get reamed for it, NOT hold them responsible and we would get reamed for it. WHAT CAN WE DO? Whats done has been done, we can't take it back. What we can do is punish those involved, which we are in the process of doing.. however nobody else is holding anyone responsible for THEIR actions in Iraq.. EXCEPT FOR US..

You can always chose to spew and retreat and ignore logical arguments, or you can chose to rehash the same old tired shoot-from-the-hip arrogance here. It doesn't matter.

You and many of the neo-cons here continue to use the same immature argument - bad precedences justify current behavior. And you just need to grow up.

THIS IS WHAT WE CAN DO: The US needs to acknowledge that their arrogance is unChristlike and leads only to more evil and destruction, and offer a genuine policy change away from the arrogance and preemptive philosophies, and they offer authority to a LEGITIMATE authority such as the UN.

You're so naive and uninformed that it's laughable.

Haha, you're hardly in position to talk with your record of disappearing after spewage.

 

[addragyn]

"This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!"

They started it???

The undercurrent of racism is really f$cking strong here. Is it intentional?


"Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No."

Ok tough guy.

Mental torture is as real as the physical stuff. Just because you don't know or understand this... The US military does, it's a regular part of the curriculum at SEER school.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: NeoV
This isn't about "they treated prisoners badly, why can't we?"

This isn't about "where were all you bleeding liberals when Saddam was torturing prisoners?"

This is about the United States of America being the moral 'leaders' of the free world, and looking no better than many of the "rogue" nations whose treatment of prisoners is under our assail.

We are better than this, and must do everything necessary to stop it at once.

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
This is an easy one IMO. The war in Iraq is a unique creature in American history, and that's something people need to understand. This is the first military action in which we have attacked another country in an anticipatory defense action, on the theory that they posed a threat to the US (which frankly now seems inaccurate). Even Vietnam involved an effort to prop up an existing government - Operation Iraqi Freedom was, doctrinally and practically speaking, an offensive attack.

Since it's now clear that there were never any WMDs in Iraq, and there was never any reliable intel saying there were, the sole plausible rationale for this war is that we were acting to liberate the Iraqi people from the brutal tyranny of Suddam Hussein (and I am not pooh-poohing that - he clearly was an evil and murderous dictator). Effectively, through our actions, we have become the Regime Police, and have declared that we are fit to judge which regimes should stand and which should fall. Like any police organization, this subjects us to a higher standard of behavior, because, if we are going to kill thousands of people in the context of toppling another country's government, we have to be better than the toppled regime. If we are going to preach the merits of democracy and freedom, we have to exemplify them or we are nothing but brutal hypocrits.

As for what we can do to correct what has already happened, well, it will be impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. I don't know that it is possible to restore goodwill and have credibility with the Iraqis or our Arab partners. This is why it was paramount to avoid committing these abuses in the first place. One wonders whether this could have been prevented by sending a larger, better-trained force to Iraq, since by all accounts many of the MPs at the prison had little to no training. That said, they are individually responsible for their actions - every GI is trained on the law of war, and knows or should know it is illegal to torture or humiliate prisoners of war.

It seems to me that the most appropriate gesture would be for President Bush to enact a real shakeup in DOD leadership, since it seems very clear that he was not informed as to what was going on until far too late, and to be completely open with the press and the rest of the world about taking steps to punish everyone responsible, up to and including commanders and civilian leadership at high levels if necessary. IMO he also needs to demonstrate greater sensitivity to international concerns and greater respect to foreign leaders. Operation Iraqi Freedom drew near-universal scorn from foreign leaders, and I can't help but think our experiences since the war was "won" more than a year ago have borne out their concerns.

As for your frustration with the fact that "nobody is being held responsible for the murders of tens of thousands of people," I'm not sure who you're talking about. I think it's safe to say that Saddam Hussein will be tried in a war crimes tribunal, and probably also prosecuted by whatever government the Iraqis implement (which will have the benefit of the availability of the death penalty, something the UN war crimes tribunals don't use).

Yeah at this point, there really is no more legitimacy left to the war.