Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Discussion

[tallest1]

Originally posted by: dwell
I know all about the Geneva Convention, still, from a strictly moral standpoint, why do only the most die-hard liberals seem to care about killing the enemy but almost everyone is up in arms over torturing (humiliating) them?

You got it backwards fella. the conservatives don't care how many iraqi's die and now they don't care about the torture of them either

 

[IGBT]

Propaganda..or bath house pic's from south of market bath house in San Francisco...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The original post, like many of those that have followed it, is stunningly stupid and ill-informed.

The whole point of our war with Iraq (now that it's amply clear there never were any WMDs) was to free the Iraqi people from the tyranny of life under Saddam Hussein. By allowing these Iraqi prisoners to be tortured and humiliated (while simultaneously denying it was happening), we have effectively eliminated any remaining credibility we might have had in the eyes of the conquered Iraqis.

This kind of treatment flagrantly violates the Geneva Convention, to which we are the world's leading adherants. If we are going to become the world's policeman and moral arbiter, we had damned well better walk the walk.

If we can't take, and maintain, the moral high ground, there simply can't be any rational justification for this war. Rather than being the saviors who would restore Iraq to peace and freedom, our forces are being perceived as marauders and bullies. This appearance can't be good for anyone, particularly any American. I have been a military member for about six years, and it pains me to be associated with this kind of lawlessness and stupidity.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
The original post, like many of those that have followed it, is stunningly stupid and ill-informed.

The whole point of our war with Iraq (now that it's amply clear there never were any WMDs) was to free the Iraqi people from the tyranny of life under Saddam Hussein. By allowing these Iraqi prisoners to be tortured and humiliated (while simultaneously denying it was happening), we have effectively eliminated any remaining credibility we might have had in the eyes of the conquered Iraqis.

This kind of treatment flagrantly violates the Geneva Convention, to which we are the world's leading adherants. If we can't take, and maintain, the moral high ground, there simply can't be any rational justification for this war. Rather than being the saviors who would restore Iraq to peace and freedom, our forces are being perceived as marauders and bullies. This appearance can't be good for anyone, particularly any American. I have been a military member for about six years, and it pains me to be associated with this kind of lawlessness and stupidity.

well said, this is just going to provoke more attacks and will contribute to difficult times for US troops

 

[Tab]

Is it over rated? Absolutely, all we see are pictures. You could say pictures are worth a thousand words, but we will never really know what really happen in the prisons. They prisoners can say anything they want to the media and they'll report. We all know how biased most of the news sources are in the middle east. It really doesnt bother me that much. None of us will ever understand the brutality of war.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Rilescat

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

Welcome to college life.

what the FVCK kinda college did YOU go to?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Humiliated, YES.

Tortured, NO.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd much rather be urinated on than have my fingers cut off.

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion. Sure, all of this is conduct unbecoming of a United States armed service man, but if you want to talk about REAL humiliation, let's talk about those soldiers and contract workers who were killed and dragged through the streets of Falujah. Now that was humiliation!

I'm sick and tired off all these liberal whiners, crying over this spilt milk. Thanks to the liberals, this country is turning into a bunch of PC pu$$ies. It's time we woke up and grew a pair!

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

Oh please let me shove a broomstick up your ass.... jesus man PUT THE BONG DOWN AND STEP AWAY


In addition i would like to know how exactly they started it. If you starting pulling BS 9-11 - iraq crap out of ass, i WILL put back where it belongs with the afrrementioned broomstick

 

[civad]

I have been a military member for about six years, and it pains me to be associated with this kind of lawlessness and stupidity.

Thank you. As they say... better ask the guys in the trenches...

 

[YellowRose]

In case some of you forgot we are at war. Seems to me things like this happen when trying to get intel. I'm pretty sure if we were limited to 3 hots, a cot and cable Tv there would be no intel. Of course we could put richard Simmons on TV 24/7 and force them to watch it we would also be accused of wrong doing.
Now the other side kills, drags thru the street, burns the bodies and chops them up so they can hang from some structure. Where were all of the Arab Leader going on TV to say they were sorry.

Now one more time. Just why have we not nuked this place. This Liberal Veteran wants to know.

 

[Zephyr106]

Originally posted by: YellowRose
In case some of you forgot we are at war. Seems to me things like this happen when trying to get intel. I'm pretty sure if we were limited to 3 hots, a cot and cable Tv there would be no intel. Of course we could put richard Simmons on TV 24/7 and force them to watch it we would also be accused of wrong doing.
Now the other side kills, drags thru the street, burns the bodies and chops them up so they can hang from some structure. Where were all of the Arab Leader going on TV to say they were sorry.

Now one more time. Just why have we not nuked this place. This Liberal Veteran wants to know.

Hmmm maybe those Arab Leaders like King Abdullah of Jordan should apologize. For having an inferior religion and culture, that is. That is what lead to those defilements of American bodies. Or, maybe it was inferior genetic makeup inherent in Arabs. All Arabs and all Muslims are personally responsible for what a gang of Iraqi insurgents does.

Zephyr

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: tallest1

Originally posted by: dwell
I know all about the Geneva Convention, still, from a strictly moral standpoint, why do only the most die-hard liberals seem to care about killing the enemy but almost everyone is up in arms over torturing (humiliating) them?

You got it backwards fella. the conservatives don't care how many iraqi's die and now they don't care about the torture of them either

Did you prior to the invasion? Please post some quotes of messages you posted expressing outrage of the treatment of Iraqis under Saddam's rule.

 

[tallest1]

I'm referring to the number of iraqis that die by our hands, not the number that Sadaam has been responsible for. We all know we can't liberate everyone at once and we also knew there were people more deserving of our help than Iraq. Heck, Bush Sr. knew it and said so in his book

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: kage69

Victims of the abuse have said they would rather be killed or tortured Saddam-style rather than go through what they did.

..and I don't buy it. These acts were reprehensible, no question, but saying they were worse than what Sadaam's people did is equal parts stupidity and resentment towards their captors (not that the latter isn't justified).

That prison is practically DisneyLand compared to what it was when the Ba'athists were running things.

They were threatened with a 9mm - under Sadaam prisoners were executed on a regular basis.

Threatened with dogs - under Sadaam they were thrown into a dog pit to be torn apart (reportedly Uday's favorite).

Chemical light/broom stick sodomy - under Sadaam and electrified metal rod was the implement of choice.

Threatened with rape - Sadaam had a 'professional' rapist on the payroll, I doubt it stopped there.

Cold water shock - vat of nitric acid anyone?




I feel horrible that these prisoners had to go through that stuff, as well as insulted and ashamed we have idiots on the ground doing this in our name - but these prisoners are full of sh!t if they say Sadaam's treatment was preferable. Period.

I dont see how you get all this information. The US, Human Rights Watch and the Red Cross, all who knew of these incidents since last October atleast half a year to make available, and even that, only after the media got hold of the pictures.

Do you think Saddam allowed all these international agencies entrance to his torture cells? Interviews with his "professional rapists"? And so on and so forth?

Again, please try to understand, I am not saying Saddam DIDNT do these things, but just how do you get all this information? The only source is eye witness reports from defectors and people who were tortured. But you yourself dont buy the word of the victims of US abuse, then why the victims of Saddam's abuse?

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

Psychological torture is far more destroying than physical torture. Psychological torture haunts the victims maybe for the rest of their lifes.

And yes the US should grow some balls, live up to their preachings and retire the responsible all the way up the chain of cammand. Be they responsible by bad and wrong training, supervision, or just by not acting despite their knowledge.
One thing is for sure. If this had not become public, the military or their civilian superiors would just have brushed it under the carpet.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: conjur
Sleep deprivation
Broomsticks up the ass
Threats of electrocution
Beatings
Mental abuse

As far as military prisons and interrogations go of pows...#1 is a standard practice and isn't considered torture. #2 is rape and that is definitely torture. It should have no place anywhere in any prison under any circumstances. #3 is just a threat. If it were carried out, then it would be torture, but as far as I've seen in the news reports it was just that...threats. #4 is a judgement call. It depends on the level and severity. #5 is terrible, but again...not torture. Anyway, my point is that some of these charges are trumped up. Others, such as the broomstick or the humiliation in those pictures we've been seeing are just as serious as the media clames to be in those cases, although they are not widespread. It'll be interesting to see who finally holds the bag for this and how it will effect our efforts in Iraq over the long term. It has only been a short while since this news was released.

As far as personal opinion goes, you may be right. How about beating to deaths of inmates? 2 cases have been revealed as murders. Maybe the Iraqis hold the opinion that burning to death contractors and sticking their carcasses on bridges is not torture, its the same as inmates being murdered. Why are they barbaric and the US forces not?

 

[IGBT]

..real pictures of horror...



Text

 

[Format C:]

The saddest part of all of this is that while all the liberals and dems are having a screaming heydey playing politics with this issue, among many others, and blowing it completely out of all rational proportion they've not stopped to consider the full ramifications of their actions. After all of this hullabaloo, when given the sometimes split-second choice of kill or capture for interrogation, which do you think the troops will be more inclined to do? Now, feel free to carry on with all your hand wringing and frothing at the mouth if you wish. Know though that you're contributing to the death of more Iraqis with each outrageous assertion. Oh how distraught and full of angst I'm sure you'll all be when the new death tolls start rolling in. No doubt you'll rant and rave and wring your hands once more and curse Bush and the evil American military but we'll all know who's really to blame won't we?

 

[n0cmonkey]

I wonder how this all fits into their religion...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx

Originally posted by: tallest1

Originally posted by: dwell
I know all about the Geneva Convention, still, from a strictly moral standpoint, why do only the most die-hard liberals seem to care about killing the enemy but almost everyone is up in arms over torturing (humiliating) them?

You got it backwards fella. the conservatives don't care how many iraqi's die and now they don't care about the torture of them either

Did you prior to the invasion? Please post some quotes of messages you posted expressing outrage of the treatment of Iraqis under Saddam's rule.

Not really but then it wasn't Americans who were doing the rape and torture.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Format C:
The saddest part of all of this is that while all the liberals and dems are having a screaming heydey playing politics with this issue, among many others, and blowing it completely out of all rational proportion they've not stopped to consider the full ramifications of their actions. After all of this hullabaloo, when given the sometimes split-second choice of kill or capture for interrogation, which do you think the troops will be more inclined to do? Now, feel free to carry on with all your hand wringing and frothing at the mouth if you wish. Know though that you're contributing to the death of more Iraqis with each outrageous assertion. Oh how distraught and full of angst I'm sure you'll all be when the new death tolls start rolling in. No doubt you'll rant and rave and wring your hands once more and curse Bush and the evil American military but we'll all know who's really to blame won't we?

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that those of us who are outraged by the total disregard of humanity regarding these incidents will be responsible for more Iraqi deaths or just the Democrats and Liberals among us who are outraged by the total disregard of humanity regarding these incidents? According to the Dub he is just as outraged as anybody over these incidents.

 

[chess9]

Format C:

If given a second chance, would you be inclined to rewrite that paragraph? Frankly, it makes exactly zero sense to me. But, then, I'm a commie, pinko.

Rather than more Iraqis dying, wouldn't it make more sense that American troops will now be at greater risk because of these disclosures? And wouldn't that be the principal reason why the Pentagon kept it hush hush (aside from the political fallout)?

Frankly, I think these disclosures will be more apt to make Americans troops gun shy and our government have to re-think its policies, including an earlier withdrawal. Wouldn't those two points tend to SAVE Iraqi lives?

-Robert

 

[kage69]

dont see how you get all this information. The US, Human Rights Watch and the Red Cross, all who knew of these incidents since last October atleast half a year to make available, and even that, only after the media got hold of the pictures.

Wrong. The West has been getting information about Sadaam and his thugs since the early 80s. I believe the first real credible source was the Spanish government. Qusay and Uday Hussein befriended the two sons of the Spanish Ambassador to Iraq, and 'entertained' their guests with depictions and grisly stories about daddies past times (which they were encouraged to partake in no less). Kurds, Iranians, Shias, Sunni dissidents, exiled politicians and former military personel all seem to have the same experiences while staying in Ba'athist prisons. While there are a few good sources on this on the interent, I found the most eye-opening insight to be A&E's Biography of Sadaam Hussein. The History Channel has also had a few shows on Sadaam, in them interviews by people that were actually held and tortured. You can (and should) question all you want, but I've seen too many grown men in interviews cry about their ordeals to think it's all some conspiracy.

Do you think Saddam allowed all these international agencies entrance to his torture cells? Interviews with his "professional rapists"? And so on and so forth?

Please, no need to facetious. If you knew anything about Sadaam's glory days, you'd know it was his practice to spare one or two individuals from the normal treatment so that they woud communicate his 'message' to the masses. British and US POWs from the first war have backed up the stories we've heard from exiles concerning torture and executions. Concerning the Professional Rapist, I saw (forget which website) a scan of his calling card. It was a ID card of sorts, with name and rank on it, and on the bottom written in Arabic, 'Violater of Women's Honor.' Nice huh?

Again, please try to understand, I am not saying Saddam DIDNT do these things, but just how do you get all this information? The only source is eye witness reports from defectors and people who were tortured. But you yourself dont buy the word of the victims of US abuse, then why the victims of Saddam's abuse?

If you feel the need comment on my posts, please make a point of reading them first ok? You really come across as an idiot when you try to put words into people's mouths. Please direct us all to where it was I indicated I didn't believe the words of victims of US abuse. Here, I'll make it easy for you and actually qoute myself:

These acts were reprehensible, no question,

and then I said:

I feel horrible that these prisoners had to go through that stuff, as well as insulted and ashamed we have idiots on the ground doing this in our name

Perhaps you'd like to clarify your post a little now?

 

[jman19]

I haven't read the whole thread, but is the OP serious? Does he REALLY think that Iraqi's weren't being tortured? That's absurd. Beyond the fact that this is a human rights violation, this situation only sets the US back in its goal of getting the trust of the Iraqi people and smoothly handing over control of the nation...

Possibly another generation of arab peoples who will have another reason to hate the US and it's citizens. Boy I sure do feel safer now!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Format C:
The saddest part of all of this is that while all the liberals and dems are having a screaming heydey playing politics with this issue, among many others, and blowing it completely out of all rational proportion they've not stopped to consider the full ramifications of their actions. After all of this hullabaloo, when given the sometimes split-second choice of kill or capture for interrogation, which do you think the troops will be more inclined to do? Now, feel free to carry on with all your hand wringing and frothing at the mouth if you wish. Know though that you're contributing to the death of more Iraqis with each outrageous assertion. Oh how distraught and full of angst I'm sure you'll all be when the new death tolls start rolling in. No doubt you'll rant and rave and wring your hands once more and curse Bush and the evil American military but we'll all know who's really to blame won't we?

You seem to be assuming that our GIs are either so stupid, or so badly trained, that they will make snap decisions to murder surrendering troops rather than capturing them as POWs (which may or may not be "for interrogation"). (And make no mistake, it is murder to kill surrendering troops.) Trust me, all American troops are well-trained on the law of war and rules of engagement (I have given this kind of training many times), and for the most part they are more than smart enough to understand.

This kind of sentiment (that is, one which appears oriented toward defending Americans and their behavior, whatever it might be) is incredibly dangerous and stupid IMO. As I said above, if we are going to engage in offensive attacks against other countries on the basis that their governments are brutal and oppressive, we can't be brutal and oppressive ourselves. Otherwise we just look like corrupt policemen.

 

[Danman]

Guys, have you ever thought of what Iraqis did to our POWs? Do you really think they treat them nicely? I seriously doubt it, and I can guarantee you that many of our POWs died by Iraqis.

I do have a problem with the torture though our GIs are doing to these POWs. All it is doing is bringing us down to their level, scum. And we are a lot better than that.