is 3dfx video's amd? and the big bad overpriced nvidia intel of video card?

[mikelou26]

i dont get it tho why people dislike 3dfx?

 

[mikelou26]

nvidia is overcharging their cards
=D

 

[mikelou26]

what do everone think?

 

[john433i]

Haha. I don't think that a Creative Labs GeForce2 GTS is overpriced at $199, especially when the v5-5500 is around $250 at most places. And since when do people not like AMD, with the low prices and overclockability of their chips? People don't like 3dfx because the video cards they sell are underpowered and overpriced.

 

[jpprod]

i dont get it tho why people dislike 3dfx?

I can only speak for myself and speculate. I dislike 3dfx because of the impact they've lately had on PC gaming. 3Dfx Voodoo Graphics pioneered high-end 3D-gaming, and I respect that acomplishment.

However, 3dfx's attempts to introduce their own, propietary graphics API Glide as a major platform into gaming market and downplaying&missing out on widely established, standard features which all competing 3D accelerator solutions offer (AGP texturing, 32bit color back in V3's introduction and hardware bump mapping, T&L with VSA-100) for just so they could re-sell their old architecture third time over again really lowers the esteem I have for 3dfx as a company. Call me whatever you'd like, but game developers developing for Glide instead of OpenGL or Direct3D has in my opinion held back implementation of these widespread features: I'm sure software (namely big 3D-engines) would be technically much further today if V3 would've been introduced with support for 32bit color and AGP texturing.

But general public's dislike of 3dfx certainly doesn't have as technical roots as mine does. I'd say many people see that 3dfx's current product line does not compete well against Nvidia GeForce and ATi Radeon lines, and they dump on 3dfx in order to be on the "winning team".

I'm sure most don't share my gloomy views over this issue, though

 

[Fozzie]

While personally I agree with jpprod, I think the average hardware geek out there is loyal only to the company that makes the best products. Sure there is fanboys, but look at the response to ATI now. Even so called nvidiots embrace it as an excellect product.

I think there is some anti-3dfx sentiments floating around from the perception that they tried to force their viewpoint on hardware on the consumer. But I suspect if Rampage proves to be a high-class product that competes with the Radeon II and NV20 well they will gain back respect. Only problem is if they can survive in their current form untill then.

If 3dfx is AMD, then AMD is still only making K6's.

 

[mikelou26]

errr
geforce 2 gts ultra...
500?
and
g-force 2 gts 64 350?
come on yo
u dont think they are overcharging it a lil?
we can probably get a x-box
for those prize
and microsoft is using the modified nv20 on x-box
muhahaha

 

[FarENheiT]

I used to be all for 3dfx. They were somewhat of an evil empire but their cards were good. I extremely dislike them now. First their stance on 3d was pure speed, then they got lapped. Next they changed their stance to image quality. They were lapped again. Now their stance is FSAA because they have been lapped in speed and image quality. They have never had their act together. Plus when they missed the release of the voodoo5 by a year, that angered alot of people...including myself. If they had delivered the voodoo5 when the Geforce 1 was out, things would be totally different now. But they've made so many bad decisions that they're on they're way out IMO.

Plus they've been jerks. They tried to force Glide on everyone, thankfully we've passed that obstacle. I remember too how they were going after people writing Glide wrappers for nVIDIA cards. All of the decisions they've made have not been beneficial to anyone. They hurt consumers, and in the long run, they hurt themselves!

About those nVIDIA prices...yeah they're expensive, but who buys that crap? Theres virtually no speed difference with the GTS 64MB from the 32MB. And the Ultra, well, its a new card with lots of fast and expensive RAM on it. What do you expect?

Oh and to finally answer your question, I dont think 3dfx is the video worlds representation of AMD. 3dfx is more along the lines of Cyrix! I think ATI is the video worlds AMD. They came out with products that were ok, but not so great, but now they've come back with something outstanding where no one believed they could do it. (it still needs some tweaked Win2k drivers though =)

 

[mikelou26]

i used to have voodoo2...it was awesome..
=(
but um..
yea i guess..
but ...now i have nvidia's product...i know i know...
i fell into their trap........nvidia's trap... =T
i just hope..some company will rise up and battle with nivia..cuz it is always good cuz every company will want to create BETTER graphic's card and BETTER price for all of us...and um..
by the way
ATI sucks aiights
=P
it cant even touch geforce i dunno why everyone is saying their "new" drive for the card will make it BETTER
but ohh plz...dont even give me that crap..=P

 

[FarENheiT]

What are you talking about, "ATI sucks?" And why do you keep typing "um?" You seem to like the V5, yet Radeon is faster. Radeon has the best image quality out of the whole group. Its 32bit color is only slightly slower than the GTS. In some cases, it beats nVIDIA in 32bit. Radeon is a new card. Their drivers aren't completely mature yet. nVIDIA has had a YEAR to revise their drivers to get them where they are today. ATI is coming along though. Their new drivers will make the card smoke. Right now, they have certain features disabled (fastZbuffer, Hierarchichal Z) and once they are tweaked out, the card will be great. Radeon supports features of DirectX 8, directly on the chip! Neither the Geforce 2 or Geforce 2 Ultra have support for DirectX 8. Plus, I paid $170 for my Radeon, and I get a $50 rebate. $120 for a video card that is only slightly slower than a GTS. So where do you get the idea that ATI sucks?

 

[mikelou26]

i noticed how everyone always back up their "own" graphic card company....if u own ATI..u can say the drivers for it are not "matured" yet and for 3dfx u might say their FSAA is awesome and crap and um..for nvidia you can they they have whole bunch of fil rate and etc... =T i am not saying ATI "suck" but i am saying everyone need to stop hyping up for ATI's radien to beat nvidia.. =D

 

[mikelou26]

i guess i am trying to say without companys like 3dfx and ATI nvidia gonna charge us sooooo much green papers
=D

 

[RoboTECH]

mikelou, I think this is an interesting subject, despite your, er....interesting way of conveying your thoughts.

jpprod hit the nail on the head with why peeps are displeased with 3dfx.

1) They said "gamers don't need 32-bit or large textures"
2) They said "gamers don't need T&L"
3) They said "you should use glide"

Now then, were they right? yes (well, in some cases) Unfortunately, peeps don't want to be TOLD what they "need". Just give it to them and let them choose for themselves.

The problem is that 3dfx has a bunch of idiots running their PR department (notice how head PR guy Brian Burke left 3dfx and is now working for nvidia...hmmmm....interesting....) and they have, in the past, been run by engineers who are brilliant at logic but thoroughly suck when it comes to business.

Realistically speaking, there were almost no games that supported 32-bit color at the time. Q3 was one of the first big games that had 32-bit support, and it ran slow as hell on a TNT2 Ultra. T&L is STILL just this side of worthless (unless you like 3dMark2000 Arena) and games that use T&L in the future will probably not run that great on today's T&L Hardware.

Glide games look far better in 16-bit than any other games out there today, and can rival 32-bit in looks while blowing them away in speed and playability. A V3 can run UT in glide as well if not better than a present day GTS. Criticize glide if you want, but it was pretty great for its time.

Of course, they're not updating glide since 3dfx screwed up with the lawsuits on the glide wrappers (another story entirely)

The true problem with 3dfx is their failure to executeand that they have tried to tell gamers what they "need", instead of providing EVERYTHING and letting gamers choose.

They have also rested on their laurels and have not progressed as well as they could've/should've/would've (were I in charge, heh...)

Their lack of a true OGL makes their performance less than what it should be. The fact that they are using a .25u part is testament to their lack of execution. Think about it.

The 5500 SHOULD'VE been released @ Christmas time-99 to compete with the GeForce, which it would've blown out of the water. VSA-200 SHOULD'VE been available for a "spring refresh", which would've been a 200 MHz .18u part that SHOULD'VE had trilinear + anisotropic + an extra texel pipeline.

but alas, due to their poor execution, it just didn't happen. I like to think that they are on an upswing here, but I'm not going to hold my breath. If Spectre (not Rampage, peeps) doesn't outclass NV20 and Radeon-II and G800, then they'll not make it with me or anyone else, for that matter.

It's all about the execution. I think they've gotten past their "gamers don't need blah blah blah" BS. Let's hope they've gotten past their poor execution.

 

[Theslowone]

Well i have a geforce 256 ddr dvi and a voodoo2, which i only run every once in a while. The drivers for the voodoo realy dont make that much diffrence to me but the detonator 3's didnt do exactly what nvidia said about them IMO. I have both nvidia and 3dfx and i would love to have a ati radeon. Radeon might have small problems, but it works, and the prices are very reasonable on their products, when yes, nvidia does charge a lot. But if a lot of people buy the product then nvidia can tell that they are charging what will make them the most money. The price usually matches the demand. The demand on voodoo5 or voodoo4 isn't nearly as high as for the new nvidia and ati cards, and as far as i can tell there is a reason for that.

 

[BW]

I think of it as 3dfx being the Intel who is alot bigger and once ruled with ground breaking tech. Nvidia is the little Amd who has worked its ass off to get where its at now. Nvidia took advantage of the fat 3dfx that has ben sitting on its ass while it thought nobody could surpass them.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

wel nvidia is not very comparable to amd since they are bullies(worst than 3dfx) and they bashed 3dfx for not implementing features that will be used when their curent best ofering wil be completely obsolete. think about it. 200 t&l games by LAST christmas(where are they now?). At least 3dfx never lied to consumers about anything. With the voodoo 3 32 bit fiasco the said they did not have the bandwith for 32 bit and that 32 megs were overkill for 16 bit. With voodoo 5 and t&l they said t&l is not widely suported and by the time it is the first geforce cards(and even maybe the gts's) wil be obsolete. Nvidia rushed to implement their buggy and slow fsaa. I dont see 3dfx trying to implement any feature as a hack in their drivers. Im not saying 3dfx is god and Nvidia is satan im just saying nvidia products are overpriced and have useless features for the time being. Someone also said that 3dfx just released their voodoo architecture 3-4 times well nvidia has been releasing the same tnt1 architecture since the begining. All their chips are based on the old TNT1.

 

[TAsunder]

Well if you are looking for the opinion of someone who has owned a 3dfx card, an nVidia card, and a Radeon, that's me. I think that the GeForce 2 GTS is probably the best bet if all you care about is speed and are concerned about future games being too slow. I think the Radeon is the best bet if you want a lot of features and play games in 32 bit (and want nice image quality) and don't think that pure speed is going to be a factor. I think the v4/v5/v6 is good if you find it on sale and need a doorstop. The v3 was decent for the price, but still outclassed by the GeForce at the time. The v1 and v2 were great, but 3dfx went in the wrong direction right around the time they bought out STB and started releasing cards instead of just making chips.

I do not hate 3dfx, I just think they have taken a big turn in the wrong direction. I don't blame them for pushing Glide.. it was the coolest thing when it first came out. Now that d3d and opengl are more mature and viable, Glide simply is not as important. 3dfx doesn't want to give up an API they've invested so much time in money in though.

I do not hate nVidia.. they have basically single-handedly introduced stiff competition into the market of 3d cards, and continue to innovate. They do not overcharge, they offer options. If you want a cheap video card get the MX, which can hold its own. If you want moderately cheap get a 32 meg card. If you want somewhat expensive but more futureproof get the 64 meg. If you want the ultimate in 3d performance get the ultra. They'd be stupid if they didn't charge different prices for these. 3dfx charges some ludicrous amount for the 6000 and the 5500 certainly is not cheap by any means.

I do not hate ATI.. their 2d products are great, they've historically had decent 2d cards, and are finally catching up in 3d cards. I have ATI in 2 of my 4 machines, and don't have a complaint.

 

[mikelou26]

i dunno how 3dfx is losing the war
they used to be so "great"

 

[mikelou26]

i have geforce
*sigh*

 

[pen^2]

IMO 3dfx is more comparable to apple... they started out with something that blew everyone outta water... once they gained monopolistic marketshare, they tried to force things down everyone's throat, keeping their crap proprietary at the same time. once they were outdone in the technology dept., you know the story

 

[BFG10K]

I dislike 3dfx for a number of reasons.

Glide & MiniGL
The almost monopolistic nature of 3dfx back in the days of Glide was largely to blame for MiniGL. While everyone else had full OpenGL ICD drivers, 3dfx users were forced to deal with that MiniGL crap. All the while 3dfx were insisting that Glide should be used everywhere.

This sort of proprietry API mentallity has no place in the competetive graphics industry and only serves to stifle competition. If 3dfx had managed to become a monopoly we would probably be running everything in Glide using small 16 bit textures, even today.

The Refusal To Accept Industry Standards
The cycle which began when the Voodoo 3 was released has repeated itself again. Instead of adopting mainstream features 3dfx insist that they are the ones "defining" the graphics industry and release totally different (and useless) features.

The Voodoo 3 was released with 3dfx telling you that you don't "need" large textures, 32 bit textures or AGP texturing/fastwrites. Now we are seeing the exact same thing with the V4/V5. No T&L which is a major problem, no asintrophic filtering, no environmental bump-mapping and no true tri-linear mip-mapping.

Obvious Hardware Design Flaws
Something is wrong when a company has to resort to throwing more CPUs onto boards to keep up with the competition. Even the V5 5500 is much larger that other video cards and already requires a non-AGP power-supply (that is, it draws power from somewhere else).

The V5 6000 is going to be a real monster with enormous heat output and power consumption. The Rampage with its eight CPUs is just a joke. That's not a video card, that's a motherboard. Multiprocessing induces perfomance overhead, drives up the price/power requirements and causes more heat output.

3dfx have claimed to have solved the memory bandwidth problem by going multi-processing, but they haven't solved anything. The texture duplication required across all of the CPUs quickly sucks up what bandwidth you may have gained by using this approach.

Not to mention that due to texture duplication, a 64 MB V5 5500 has only 28 MB effective RAM and the V5 6000 monster will have only 58 MB of effecive RAM from its original 128 MB RAM.

How far is this going to go? Will the Rampage ship with 256 MB RAM to feed its eight processors? Will the Rampage2 have 16 processors with 512 MB of RAM required to feed them? What are the sizes/heat generation/power requirements of these cards going to be? Pretty damn high, that's for sure.

I predict the Rampage2 will require liquid nitrogen bath for cooling and will require four wall outlets to power it. Also it will likely be the same size as a surfboard.

 

[whateverdude]

well, the V5 may not have all the "features" of a GTS or Radeon, but every game that has come out since I got it has run fast with excellent image quality with options high. and I havent had any problems with any games ive played on it.

I really hope im not "forced" into buying another brand because 3dfx has always given me the best performance/stability. Nvidia cards are fast and look pretty good, but I always had at least 1 problem with about every game I played.

 

[hans007]

well bfg10k is an nvdiot, so pay no heed to his rantings. I think of it more like this. My v5 5500 works, its no pain, it easy to install, compatible with everything. Sure its not the fastest, but its close enough. Its like a sun server, and nvidia is like a intel based linux server. People still buy sun, even though its slower, since its got its own customer base etc and is reliable and works easily with little pain. The linux server is probably faster but there isn't the easiness factor. Also as for the glide thing, 3dfx has the right to milk glide for what it was worth, and also glide came out at first since no one had opengl, and up till only about a year ago, most cards (well not really nvidia, but ATI and matrox) still had a pretty crummy opengl icd.

 

[BW]

Yea but i think its good that Nvidia has had the t&l in their chips.Sombody had to start it right. Even though it hasnt ben used alot thats what gets the game makers going. If Nvidia hadnt implemented t&l then the games that support it or are going to probably wouldnt be out so soon.You have to ad new features even if they dont get used much.That will push the programers to make better sofware.The voodoo3 was really just a voodoo1 and 2 but faster.Thats not good for us. I dont just stay with one company anyway. Thats stupid. I owned the voodoo1 and the voodoo2 in sli a voodoo3 3000 and i have a voodoo5500.I liked them all. The 5500 is a little bit of a letdown as it wouldve ben great a year ago. But that dont mean im going to stay with 3dfx just couse i have had good products from them in the past. I owe them nothing for creating those good cards. I now run a 32meg Radeon which i like very well. I also have a g-force mx.If i had the gts then that would be my main card. I like that little mx its just not fast enough in 32 bit.If 3dfx comes out with a better card in the future i will buy it. Intil then i'll keep my Radeon in the pc and the 5500 on the closet shelf.

 

[pen^2]

why would you? use the For Sale/Trade forum! thats what exactly what that place is for!